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I was wondering what thoughts there are on how much time an average game of 40k would represent if all the moves, shooting, etc. were translated into a real world battle?

15, maybe 30 minutes.

Less than 6 minutes.

Years ago I remember someone actually did a very exhaustive explanation of this. I couldn't even come close to repeating it. The "typical" game of 40K represents the pinnical of a battle, the focal high point of desperate fighting where the outcome is decided.

I think GW thinks a 40K battle represents 15-30 minutes of action.

Realistically the number of shots taken and distances moved is much less than this, but in most battles there is an awful lot of waiting around by both sides.

Anyway, it is a highly abstracted game.

Honestly, I think it's VERY hard to make that call because nothing is really in scale. The movement doesn't correspond very well to the weapon ranges, which don't really accurately reflect the amount of rounds they would put out in a "real" fight, etc.

In the "REAL" world MANY firefights are decided in seconds. Just think about all the people who get kill in your average active flick. The attack on Pearl Harbor took less than 90 minutes from start to finish.

The way the game plays out doesn't really resemble reality. Most wargames have generic troops, eg. one figure represents 10 soldiers, and the distances and things are scaled with time in mind. But in Warhammer every figure represents just that one man as you have characters and the like. Now that means most battles are really quite small skirmishes, and you only get to shoot a handful of times in the time it takes to cross the board.

You could only translate it directly into time if distances, movement and shooting etc all matched up, but they don't really because as a game it's very abstract. For a start all the weapons would have much much longer ranges, particularly the tanks which should be able to shoot it out at a scale distance the size of your garden.

Oh, and another thing, the differences between troops types narrows at a lower scale. Lets be honest, each chapter has only around 1000 marines and they are fighting all the time. They are tough beyond comprehension and are known to live hundreds of years. This should mean that marines are vary rarely killed in battle, they are very difficult to replace. Also marines are so unbelievably strong that one Marine should be able to take on a town full of people on his own, yet in the game a human Guardsman has a reasonable odds of killing one in hand to hand combat. Which is somewhat unlikely. Marines should be nearly unkillable, in 'scale toughness' a Marine should probably be like a demon prince compared to a guardsman.

Also how many games, even small skirmishes, have you played where masses of marines have been killed? Surely if the marines take on an army of Orks and a few dozen marines are killed, that's an Ork victory? Even if according to the mission objectives the marine player wins, according to the fluff they have lost. If the marines were to lose 50 men, that's 5% of their chapter gone. Orks are ten a penny, they breed quickly and there are planets with masses of them, to lose a few thousand would be nothing. If the Marines lose even a dozen men, that's a colossal blow to the chapter in return for next to nothing, even if they killed hundreds of Orks.

Well, when you consider the majority of firepower in a conflict is about suppression, rather than casualties, 40k isn't that unrealistic.

Abstracted though, yes. BS and Rate of Fire are ways to represent this. The faster a weapon can fire, the better the chance of a useful hit, and the same with accuracy. Indeed, the scattering of blast weapons could be seen as an abstraction of the firing unit predicting the enemies moves, and aiming intercept shots, rather than the weapons being naturally inaccurate.

As to casualties. What is a casualty? With a Guardsman, it's fair to assume it's pretty critical. Marines though? Shattered leg, dislocated joints. In others words, the model is no longer capable of fighting in the scale of the engagement rather than outright dead. The same goes in Fantasy. Running a broken enemy regiment scatters them. Some are cut down, others taken prisoners, but most just scatter in a disorganised rabble (the difference between the two being a retreat and rout). Given time, the regiment can reform, but not in the timescale of the battle.

Warmaster deals with this fairly competently, as Banners are usually pushed back, and actually wiping out a full detachment takes an awful lot of fighting (a single scrap in Warmaster can be taken as an entire game of Fantasy!).

Also, consider the various tactics of the Armies. Marines will typically be striking at important strategic targets, like enemy Commanders, aiming to cut off the head of the enemy army, making the Guards life a lot easier. But the Guard, they are grinders. Any game with the IG involved should be seen (as others have said) to be the breaking point of a larger conflict, where the rival Commanders and their personal units finally meet.

Kilkrazy wrote:I think GW thinks a 40K battle represents 15-30 minutes of action.

Realistically the number of shots taken and distances moved is much less than this, but in most battles there is an awful lot of waiting around by both sides.

Anyway, it is a highly abstracted game.

yeah, 6 shots by a heavy weapon does not take 15 minutes.. lol even if the loader/shooter takes a nap..

yea but if SM were in game terms they way they are in fluff, if an ork horde killed 50 marines then there would be tens of thousands of orks dead. im talking a mountain of dead greenskins.

two_heads_talking wrote:

yeah, 6 shots by a heavy weapon does not take 15 minutes.. lol even if the loader/shooter takes a nap..

that's assuming, of course, the heavy weapon team had a clear and decisive target for every shot, and was firing/reloading as fast as they can. The point is the situation is entirely the opposite, they're actually picking and aiming shots, and even trying to just plain find a target. Besides, look at a Heavy Bolter. it'd sure as hell be alot faster than heavy 3 if they just held down the trigger till the belt stopped feeding ammo, but spotting distant targets followed by controlled bursts is more likely. Just like you don't see a marine in real life stand up and hold down the trigger on his M16, spraying the entire clip at a guy 100 yrds away behind cover


Edit: food for thought. since Citadel figs are 28mm scale, and they move 6" across clear terrain in a turn, that equates to them moving about 32.5 feet per movement phase. Not a terrible speed to haul ass at while keeping said ass from being shot off. Not to mention shooting back

Well, I would see the entire battle being like 30 minutes or so. As to Fantasy, I would see those battles being more like a smaller scale for a rather long battle. Like 2 to 4 hours or so depending on the particapents.

I remember reading a long time ago that GW had a "time" chart, its been awhile but I always assumed that one phase is 10 seconds. So a full battle is about 4 minutes. Also, its a skirmish not a battle.

It's best not to look closely at GW's scale planning because it is completely unrealistic -- which is fair enough, as this is a game not a simulation.

Let the length of the battle be whatever you want it to be.

The Defenestrator wrote:

two_heads_talking wrote:

yeah, 6 shots by a heavy weapon does not take 15 minutes.. lol even if the loader/shooter takes a nap..

that's assuming, of course, the heavy weapon team had a clear and decisive target for every shot, and was firing/reloading as fast as they can. The point is the situation is entirely the opposite, they're actually picking and aiming shots, and even trying to just plain find a target. Besides, look at a Heavy Bolter. it'd sure as hell be alot faster than heavy 3 if they just held down the trigger till the belt stopped feeding ammo, but spotting distant targets followed by controlled bursts is more likely. Just like you don't see a marine in real life stand up and hold down the trigger on his M16, spraying the entire clip at a guy 100 yrds away behind cover


Edit: food for thought. since Citadel figs are 28mm scale, and they move 6" across clear terrain in a turn, that equates to them moving about 32.5 feet per movement phase. Not a terrible speed to haul ass at while keeping said ass from being shot off. Not to mention shooting back

lol thats great.

this is where problems in the game show up where a marine should be able to fire more then 24", hell my .22 can fire farther scale wise. necromunda did something to the likes of long range, mid range, and short range, each of wich you fired at a diffferent BS to represent your ability to shoot half the map away.

playing this in 40k is just another set of rules that would confuse people, just remember that 12" is rapid fire and your good. as far as time wise, I'd say very quickly less then 30 minutes.