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I thought it be worth starting a thread in the same vein as the "Ogryn: The Big Ugly guardsmen"

So the Ratling is one of the majorly neglected units of the IG. GW has not updated the models since 2nd edition and the rules since 3rd.
Are the Ratlings salvageable, or are they doomed to obscurity?

Many IG players out there would really like to see IG get human snipers rather than see the ratling gets updated. I think that is silly. Despite coming from a more fantasy oriented time in 40k's history their is still a place for them. The crucial aspect often neglected is that ratlings are not pure human and that is their advantage. In the heavily racist Imperium even the High Lords of Terra acknowledge their worth. This is because even the best human guardsmen given a sniper rifle with a scope and other gear would never be as good as an average Ratling given the identical gear. Both with Ogryns and Ratlings lie the potential to have IG units that are to a degree super human, superior stats and abilities that are beyond the average guardsmen, all that remains is to establish to what degree and in what ways these Abhumans are superior or inferior.

Before the Black Library came out with novels depicting the IG and effectively usurping the assigned tasks of the Ratlings and having humans units perform them, the Ratlings had several functions and purposes that defined them. They were the dedicated snipers, they were the scouts, they took a role of light infantry by moving ahead of the main IG formations and were able to take to cover easily; they were even cooks.

Ratlings should first receive the full spectrum of special rules normally associated with units in other armies with the same scout purpose. Scout, Infiltrate, and Move through Cover.
Second, due to their small stature they should always benefit from a cover save, even if not in cover, but receive a +1 to cover saves while in cover. If they fail pinning or Ld. tests they may always choose to go to ground.
Third, improve their ability to function as snipers, this could be some ability like "sharpshooters" where there is some capacity to re-roll to hits, on top of their BS4.

Even after all those special rules, they are over priced at their current point cost and should come down to 9pts.

What can save our jolly little guardsmen?

ok, not having the IG dex on me, i would think something like this:

carapace armour
+1 to all cover saves (since they are small)
hit on a 2+ like normal, but wound on a 3+ instead of 4+ (overkill?)
that would show they are better snipers, they are small, just need something to show they dont like running off.

but, just a guess, GW are trying to get rid of them, they are pretty much squats, and they seem to think they are going into extinction too.

If they don't get an update with the new codex, I'd say they're truly dead and buried.

If they don't get updated in the next guard codex- I'm quitting my guard army. That's how strongly I love my ratlings. They were one of my solid reasons for starting IG as my first army. Sometimes fluff can surpass logic, mostly in freindly gaming. I would be distraught to see them go.

Sadly I feel GW is under the impression that only people who want IG to be a modern military analogue play them. GW seems to want to get away from the fantasy driven darker feel of the 40k universe. My first IG models were ratlings which is one reason I'd hate to see them go.

I would proffer two different purposes to make them separate from human snipers.

Ratling squad (not platoon) would be akin to Sharps rifles or skirmishers. Marksmen who go before the line and create havoc. Snipers are there to take out ICs and occasionally vehicles.

*BS4
*Coherency is 4” not 2”
* infiltrate, scout, move through cover. Or inversely they would have thing as Lictors: deepstrike into terrain but may shoot as if not moving to represent them coming out of cover.
*option to have a demo charge, or 1 heavy weapon.
*no KP, cannot hold objectives (no one cares about ratlings), but can seize objects.


Sniper team.
*1 FOC choice of 6 men, breaks into three 2 man teams.
*NO KP, cannot hold objectives.
*1 sniper weapon with all perquisites, 1 lasgunner
*infiltrate, scout, move through cover.
*sniper may pick ICs separately from any retainer or joined squad members.
*head shot. On any natural to wound roll of d6, if the target does not save the target dies. All normal saves apply.

Ratlings, when they do appear in the fluff, are depicted as being little bastards, letches, and cowards. Their special rules should reflect that, such as access to the IG Armoury (Where did I leave my bolt pistol.... what the hell? Where is it!), but not to any special catagory equipment (Officer, SGT, Vet, ect...). When they take a leadership test and pass, they have the option to fall back or go to ground, and they must do one of the two, but if they fail they just go to ground. Basically passing only allows them the mental state to choose if they will run or not, otherwise they will just curl up in a ball and hope the bad men will go away.

Keep them operating as a squad to squad basis, all armed with longrifles, but give them Rend on 6+ for head shots, why not. Along with all the other options scout, move through cover, infiltrate, ect... I think 10PPM is reasonable.

I have taken "Ratlings" in the past, but I just used sniper models instead of ratling models. The IG could use a sniper squad, the option for it to have some interesting rules, fun models, and actuall fluff-to-game aspects would be nice.

I have always said the Imperial Guard are the onl army that can really show off their fluff and variety as it is described. If GW gets rid of such flavorful models and units as Ratlings, Ogryns, and doesn't allow players to design useful and original armies, then the IG may as well pack it in, because they just aren't really worth all the trouble playing (IG are typically rated as the hardest army to utilize in WH40k, I don't mind keeping that status, but I would like to be given a bit more rope to hang myself with every time I hit the board).

Carapace armor, two man sniper teams, and other such things don't really fit with short little hobbit-esque warriors. Carapace would probably be too heavy for them, and really, they don't need it. Two man sniper teams are plausible, but now it isn't a squad of snipers, it is a bunch of snipers being placed around the battle field. Being able to snipe out specific models is something I have always wished all snipers could do, but then they would overly devalue special characters, make the unit extremely lethal, and in the end, I just don't think it would be fair overall. Of course, many special characters or particular models are not very fair either.

I agree with Skinn. IG are are one of the hardest armies to play. I know several people who play them and they are all themed fluffily (Tank-Heavy, Horde Shooty, Abhuman, etc). IG are one of the best armies in the game for fluff. They shouldn't take that away.

I look at the Space Marine scouts, you give them cameleone cloaks (however its spelled), and you include a techmarine and its possible to get them to a 3+ cover save.

Give Ratlings cameolion cloaks and a bonus for being small and you have a unit that gets a 3+ cover save. If your smart that can be better than carapace armor, at least for a little while.

I guess we're at:
Current Stats for 9pts/each

Scout, Infiltrate, and Move through Cover

Small: Receive +1 to cover save.

Cameoline Cloaks: 4+ Cover Save (3+ w/ "Small")

Cowardly: When forced to make a morale check,
Ratlings may choose to fall back or go to ground.

Placed Shots: All shots are rending.

I would say leave them BS 4 but give them a rule that allowes them to add +1 to thier roll for fluff so they hit on 2's. Ratlings are not too bad. I dont run them that much anymore but ..... well with they new rules if I didn't retire my guard I might have considered starting to use them.

I think there weakness as an option is really that they aren't as good of an option when stacked against storm troopers or hardened veterans. One reason I think they need all the above.

As far as elites go, I'd like to see it like this:
Ogryn: Best Close Combat Option
Ratlings: Best Ranged Option
Storm Troopers: Best Middle Ground Option

Hardened Veterans: As a squad upgrade to one unit in each platoon and not an individual elite option.

I think with Storm Troopers getting the Valkyrie and being able to deepstrike that they'll lose infiltration, this would further make Ratlings a distinctive option.

... just an idea but why not make their sniper rifle 'Rapid Fire' ... just image the carnage that could be caused by these little guys as they pop up and fire ...

... edit ...

Ratling Rifle Range 36" S:X AP:6 Type: Sniper, Rapid Fire

also quite nice idea could be a rule like ...

Run for it!: lets the unit fall back at the end of ether sides shooting phase if they are with 6" of an enemy model. This may be done even if the unit is in CC. However the unit they were in CC may still catch them in a Sweeping Advance.

... needs some work

Allow Rattlings to "Spot" targets. Spotting would remove one D6 from the scatter roll, but always scatters?

One main problem with the Rattling is their points cost and considering that they have given up shares of their WS, S, T, and LD for +1 BS and I, also turn in their ability to Rapid Fire for the Sniper Rifle copared to a 6pt Guardsmen. Then 5pts are added for some reason....

I think GW should find away to make them worth at least 7 or 8 pts. I think it can be kinda silly if man for man an elite unit is cheaper than a troop choice, even if it is in a specialized role. In the same vein its silly that an inferior unit is elite, that why they will need to get a whole slew of special rules. The spotting thing might be cool, but I imagines that to be more of the niche role of the specialized human snipers.

They, I think, should have all the rules frazzled discribed (exept the heavy weapon), they're great, add the rule aka brought up, giving them +1 cover no matter what so they have at least 6+ always.

then the above mentioned rapid fire and the spotter rule, but like this:
snipers give up thier shooting to try to call in coordinates for a fire mission, declare firing unit and roll Ld for the ratlings, if they pass, roll only one scatter die on the to-hit roll.
Just like issuing complex orders in BFG!

Remember that superhuman Space Marines set something of an upper bound for how good abhuman Ratlings can be.

IMO, it's better for Ratlings to be relatively simple, rather than loading a lot of rules on them. Cameoline and Infiltrate are good, basic.

Cowardly / Run for it are largely already covered by Go To Ground / Morale / Leadership. So no need to change this.

Artillery Spotters rule makes sense as an actual in-game reason to take them over human SWS Snipers - expanding LOS and leveraging their BS4 are potentially quote powerful and unique.

I don't like carapace on them, as they're light infantry - flak is fine. Besides, if you wanted them to survive more, T3 is the easy fix.

Making their Sniper Rifles Rapid-Fire isn't bad, but really, it's not a good choice for their role of long-range, non-engagement. Giving them 2 shots within 12" encourages a different style of play, more like Eldar Rangers with their SPs.

I think that the rapid fire is a good idea. Sort of a last chance if things go really bad for the little guys.
Also, with the rules as proposed, you have three sniper rifles at most with a full squad of ratlings, doesn't sound cheesy to me...

@Illeix: I thought they were keeping Ratlings all armed with Sniper Rifles, as opposed to the Guardsman SWS which can take 3 Snipers.

I agree with most of Hwang's thought here - right now, ratlings are not an awful elites choice. They're hampered by the doctrine system - otherwise, you'd likely see them show up more often. You can nab two blisters of them for $25, and other than straighten out the pewter you can pretty much put them in bases, prime and paint.

Keep them simple. They are elites, their role is long range hurting with a sniper rifle. +1 bonus to cover saves, sniper rifles, BS 4, infiltrate is great. If you give them weapons that are not sniper rifles, you encourage them to move, which prevents them from shooting, and then the focus of the unit goes out the window. The failed leadership check = pinning is a good bit of fluff as well that lets their Leadership 6 not handicap the unit.

Spotter role would be a nice additional role to make them more useful. If the ratlings are within 36", have line of sight and are not pinned/in hand to hand, they can forgo their shooting and allow a barrage attack to subtract their BS 4 from the scatter die for a single shot, stacking with any other BS that can limit the scatter from the vehicle. Make them replace one of their sniper rifles with a laspointer and this works well. Granted, if you allow this to happen, your average scatter will be neglible (assuming 2d6 average 7, then subtract BS 3 and BS 4), but your opponent could always try shooting/charging the unit. You're also trading up to 9 snipers shots to do this, creating an appropriate trade off that would work pretty good.

Agreed. I don't know why you would want to give them anything that makes them more likely to want to be close to the enemy! Drop their price drastically (6pts per model) so they are worth taking as snipers, balanced out with the fact that they have nigh no chance in hand-to-hand, but ranged combat, and/or give them the option to buy/have special equipment that would allow the "spotting" ability, or, perhaps, they could fire into hand-to-hand combat, thus complimenting Guard's lack of ability in close combat.

Hey, they're snipers, their purpose is to weezle out those tough shots and take out vital personell. Give the target 4+ cover save, same reason as shooting through your own troops, it's a complicated shot, even for a sniper.

I think it'd be interesting to see ratlings get an ability to make a sniper shot that deny enemy cover saves, but that might go too far.

don't know might work well ... for example when a ratling rolls a 6 to hit that shot ignores cover ... in order to ignore armour saves as well the same shot would also have to roll a 6 to wound ... 1 in 36 odds, doesn't sound unfair

@Tri - they're not Eldar Rangers, so the "6" mechanic isn't so desirable...

@ DD : Who cares if they're like Eldar Rangers?

why reinvent the wheel? every one knows how the rangers work to ignore armour ... well ratlings are just better at shooting through cover ... any way its not like GW hasn't made every ones sniper rifles more like the eldars any way ... once opon a time only the eldar got rending and pinning... now every one does

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Illeix: I thought they were keeping Ratlings all armed with Sniper Rifles, as opposed to the Guardsman SWS which can take 3 Snipers.

Hey, as long as they get some cool rules, I don't care what weapons they have.

Personally, if they could get the spotter rule, they'd never touch thier rifles.