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Quick question, let's say that a squad has a member or two with one use items (combi meltas for example). Do they still count as a separate wound bucket for allocation after they have used their 1 use item?

The pro argument is - they were bought and are modeled differently
The con argument is - they are now basically the same in game terms

Thanks!

I'd say different is different, even if they already used their 'difference'.

If it's valued differently, it's different for wound allocation.

I say it should be the same. The rule is that they need to be the same in "gaming terms", and at this point, they are.

While a combi-flamer that has fired it flamer, is technically different than a bolter; in game terms, there is no difference.

The rules don't say they had to always be the same in game terms, just that they are now. The rules also never mention values or modeling.

core-dump: if they're the same in gaming terms, what in the emperor's name did you just spend 10 points on?! I see your argument, short-hand would be that obviously yes, they are now the same gun. However, their model is listed with a different point value than his homies, and also has a different fig. That, really, is the definition of different models, really. Different than his buddies on your army list, different model than his buddies on the table, different guy during wound allocation. Like it matters though, to be perfectly honest.

However, their model is listed with a different point value than his homies, and also has a different fig. That, really, is the definition of different models, really

No, it isn't. And that is the point. It must be different in "game terms"
Nothing is said about different figs, different points, different paint job, different base, different....
It must be different in "game terms" The old Sgts were part of the same 'bucket' because they were the exact same as the marines (to start, you could make them different)

You spent the 10pts because at the *beginning* of the game, that model was different in "game terms"

Now, the question is if a combi-flamer that has shot, is a different weapon than a bolter. Technically it is, but not in "game terms"

coredump wrote:Now, the question is if a combi-flamer that has shot, is a different weapon than a bolter. Technically it is, but not in "game terms"

But the model has different wargear. How can it not be part of a different wound set if it has different wargear, as that is one of the conditions?

Here's a addition to the original question - different wargear is one of the conditions of being identical, but I don't believe different conditions of wargear are. Say you have a unit with three combi-flamers, one of which has fired, and two regular bolters. Is that two sets or three, and if it's two which camp does the spent flamer fall into?

I'm with Coredump here. If someone can specify how a spent Combi-weapon is different "in game terms" from a regular Boltgun I would change my mind. As he said, the model or its costs have nothing to do with "game terms" .

Wargear that is used or useless cannot affect the game anymore, so its the same in those terms as a model without said wargear.

I believe this is an issue of someone being beardie, and slowing the game down by trying to split the wound onto a model that is essentially the same as everyone else in the squad.

Its not, a combi-weapon is not a bolter, therefor its a different model group.

A similar situation comes into play with Deamons.

The Icon Bearer has no more relevance once all the Deamons have dropped in, but he's still a different model. Does he count as different "in game terms"?

Its not, a combi-weapon is not a bolter, therefor its a different model group.

Yes, it is different. But is it different in 'game terms'.
Again, the sgt was different from a marine, but was the same in game terms, so same bucket. (4E dex)

The Icon Bearer has no more relevance once all the Deamons have dropped in, but he's still a different model. Does he count as different "in game terms"?

I realize things start getting grey... but I think that would still be considered 'different' in game terms.

coredump wrote:

The Icon Bearer has no more relevance once all the Deamons have dropped in, but he's still a different model. Does he count as different "in game terms"?

I realize things start getting grey... but I think that would still be considered 'different' in game terms.

Why is it different? It has no "in-game" affect now. To prove your point you're going to have to do better then "I think... therefor it is"

This is a pointless conversation.

What difference does it make. before you fire off the combi bolter its clearly a different type of weapon so you would roll seperate.

After you fire off the combi bolter technically you still have to roll seperate but in game terms its no different than rolling with any other marines with bolters so your only slowing the game down.

bottom line. talk with the person your playing with and let them know you will roll seperate before but not after the special part of the combi weapon is fired. if he doesn't agree then just spend those extra seconds rolling separate for the used combi weapon.

mrdabba wrote:This is a pointless conversation.

What difference does it make. before you fire off the combi bolter its clearly a different type of weapon so you would roll seperate.

I disagree. I don't find it pointless at all. it could, potentially, save a model.

Before I start, I should clarify that I'm in the "different" camp.

Keep in mind that I haven't picked up the new SM codex yet. Some things I say might not be right by it, but they're there AS EXAMPLES ONLY. They would be easily replaced with other wargear.

Say you have a Chaplain jouned to a SM squad. Your Chaplain has 2+ armor & 4+ Invul. All that's left of the troops are 1 combi flamer who's shot the flamer already and 2 regular SM. the unit is NOT in cover.
a Lascannon and 4 H Bolter shots from a Predator.
You drop the lascannon on the CF marine, along with a HB shot, 2 HB shots on the regular SM and a HB on the Chaplain.
The las shot kills the CF, so the other HB shot is gone. Now, you have one save per model.
If the CF was part of the regular SM's, it's one more die you'd have to roll for the SM unit.
The more dice you roll, the more likely you are to lose a model.

Now, as to WHY I feel the way I do about whether or not it is different is easy.
How many points did you pay for the SM with the CF? How many do you pay for regular SM's? Is that different? Yes.
Do they have different Wargear? Regular SM's are carrying regular bolters. Right? But the CF Marine is carrying a different weapon, even if he's used it. Right? Yes. Even if the flamer part has been used, the weapon is STILL different. It's STILL a combi-weapon.

Eric

I would say that if you had two marines with identical combi-weapons and only one has fired, they would still be considered of the same group. I believe this because their equipment stat lines haven't changed. They're still equipped with the same gear.

But what if you took two boltgun rounds to those two, and failed one save? Which would count as dying? Because thaat sounds mighty dodgy if you then choose to remove the spent one.

I would say that there are three sets - bolters, spent combi-weapons, and active combi-weapons. What each model qualifies as can change.

Aelyn wrote:But what if you took two boltgun rounds to those two, and failed one save? Which would count as dying? Because thaat sounds mighty dodgy if you then choose to remove the spent one.

I would say that there are three sets - bolters, spent combi-weapons, and active combi-weapons. What each model qualifies as can change.

I'd disagree. Your equipment is still a Combi-Weapon. If any rule applies to "Combi-Weapons" you still apply that rule. Your stat line hasn't changed. When a model with multiple Wounds is wounded its stat line hasn't changed either, even though it has "spent" a wound.

I don't find this to be "dodgy" either. The transition since 3rd edition has been to reduce the amount of opportunities the enemy player has to "snipe" desirable targets out of a unit. Players trying to eliminate their opponent's specialty equipment before eliminating the main squad seem to be the "dodgy" parties to me. The system blatantly favors the player losing the models by letting him assign the Wounds and even remove the models he so chooses from the wounded groups.

This lets you take away Ork Boyz at the back of the Mob to ensure you get into Assault.
This lets you take away spent Combi-Weapons to ensure you get to use your unspent Combi-Weapons.
This lets you assign saves to your generic Bolter Marines before your Sergeant with Power Fist so he still gets to swing.
This lets you remove interchangeable models that may not have fallen under a Blast template to control the range between two units.

It is all the same trend. The wounding player gets basically no say and nothing in the system favors his desires over those of the player making his saves - unless he has a special ability to single out models (like a Champion or Assassin might have) and in those cases he has to pay for the privilege.

I fall in the 3 catagories area. Everything that makes me think so has already been said.

Another thing to look at:
A squad of nobz with 2 different types of kombi-weapons. After both of them have fired off their kombi weapon, are they the same? They have the same game function, but one model costed 5 points more than the other.

VPs don't even matter now. Someone please explain the exploit.

MagickalMemories already explained what you can do with this, although I don't consider it an exploit, If you ask me it's still different wargear so it's still different model group.

I think spent is the same as unspent, but each type of combi weapon would be it's own group (combi flamer, combi plasma etc) just as a flamer and plasma marine would be in 2 seperate groups.

The rules are clear, the cost of the model has no effect on this discussion, nor does the modeling.


The question isn't if the models are 'different', the question is if the models are different in *game terms*.

In game terms, a model with a spent combi-flamer is no different than that same model with a bolter.

budro wrote:

coredump wrote:

The Icon Bearer has no more relevance once all the Deamons have dropped in, but he's still a different model. Does he count as different "in game terms"?

I realize things start getting grey... but I think that would still be considered 'different' in game terms.

Why is it different? It has no "in-game" affect now. To prove your point you're going to have to do better then "I think... therefor it is"

Having 'no more relevance' is not the same as being the same. Being able to help deamons drop in, is a different ability in game terms; even if you don't use it, or even if there are no more deamons. Yes, it is no longer relavent, but it is still a difference.

coredump wrote:The rules are clear, the cost of the model has no effect on this discussion, nor does the modeling.

The question isn't if the models are 'different', the question is if the models are different in *game terms*.

In game terms, a model with a spent combi-flamer is no different than that same model with a bolter.

I agree with you that the MODELS being different doesn't matter.
Please explain, however, the rationale behind the rest of your thinking.

How does the cost of the model not make a difference in this case? The model costs more because it is DIFFERENT. It is armed with a different weapon.
A spent combi-weapon is still a combi-weapon. You do not change what the weapon is, simply because it's been used.
In game terms, a model with a spent combi-flamer is different than that same model with a bolter because the model with the combi-flamer cost more... and point cost is DEFINITELY a part of the game. If not... Well, then the next time someone wants to play me a 1500 point game, I'm going to play maxed out squads and fill every Force Org slot. Since points don't matter, it should be just fine.

See how ridiculous that sounds? Point cost is definitely a factor in the discussion, as it is an essential part of army creation.

You say the rules are clear. Please, quote me the text and page # where it states that a spent combi-weapon is the same weapon as a bolter.

Eric

coredump wrote:In game terms, a model with a spent combi-flamer is no different than that same model with a bolter.

This is simply counter-factual.

Anything in the game that looks for "Combi-Weapon," sees a "spent" Combi-Weapon, but not a Bolt Gun.

Ergo, the two models are not the same.

Just because you didn't bring to the table an ability that looks for "Combi-Weapon" this game doesn't mean there isn't a Combi-Weapon.

If (Combi-Weapon)
returns "False" for a Bolter
returns "True" for a Combi-Weapon that has used its non-bolter attack this game

So they are different in game terms, even if you think those game terms are now "irrelevant" from a Tactical perspective.

- Marty Lund

Point cost is part of the pre-game prep, it has no part of the actual game.


mlund, what you are presenting is only useful if there is something that does that. Is there anything in the game that looks for combi-weapon, vs bolter?

I remind you, there are things that look for bolter, and they do fine with combi weapons.
Second, there are things that look for flamers, that will treat a combi-flamer differently than a bolter. Until the combi has flamed... now it also treats the two as the same.

So, is there any game issue that would treat a spent combi weapon differently than a bolter?

The rulebook clearly states what "identical in gaming terms" means. It means "the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear"

A combi weapon is clearly not the same wargear as a bolter.
They are two diffrent items of wargear. If the plasma/melta/flame charge is spent or not does not make it any different.


The same goes for other one time equipment. A Deffkopta with a spent Bigbomm still has different equipment from a Deffkopta that never bought a Bigbomm.

IMHO it is different as the weapons uses a different profile to the standard gun, eg combi-skorcha

I agree with Webbe. The rules are clear as to what a different model is in "gaming terms".

If a model has different characteristics, special rules, weapons or wargear then it is considered different in gaming terms.

A model with a combi-weapon has a different weapon than a model with a bolter even if he has already fired the one shot of the other portion of the combi-weapon.


As a house rule I think there's nothing wrong with grouping them all together to speed things up, but as far as the rules are concerned they are most definitely considered "different" as defined by the rules.

Combi weapons are not bolters. Even if they act the same.

I agree with Webbe. The rules are clear as to what a different model is in "gaming terms".

If a model has different characteristics, special rules, weapons or wargear then it is considered different in gaming terms.

Yes, but I don't think a spent combi flamer is different than a bolter... not when taken in the light of 'game terms'

If you can replace one with the other, and it can't possibly affect the game... then they are the same for 'game terms'.


OTOH, I would recommend against playing it this way. While I feel it is more accurate to the rules.... it also will have little actual game impact, and opens up lots of 'grey' possibilities. (Like the icon after all deamons are in)