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I'm doing a shooty IG army (as supposed to what?) and I've read that COD is very useful, but it seems to me that since I'm not planning on doing much assaulting anyway, it would be better to use sharpshooters for slightly better accuracy. What thinketh thou?

What are your other doctrines? Because if you haven't used up all your options, and still aren't taking CoD, you're not really doing yourself any favors.

Yeah, close order drill is a freebie, so no reason NOT to take it unless your army needs all the other doctrine slots.

If your opponent has no blast or template weapons (or very few), not bad to bunch them up for the leadership bonus.

I'm taking Drop troops, Iron Discipline, COD (or sharpshooters), Veterans, and Carapace armour.

Drop the carapace armour!!!

But COD is usefull for drop squads since you are bunched up anyway.

Do *not* take Carapace armor. It's one of the worst buys that you can make.

If I can elaborate on the above two statements:

It is generally presumed that Carapace armor is a bad doctrine to take. This is because, for the points you spend on making your individual squads a little bit harder to kill, you can usually take more, weaker squads. This means that your opponent must spend his effort among more squads. Furthermore, in addition to getting more bodies, you also get more guns, and that's something every Guard commander should be trying to do. Also, with the new cover rules, it's quite likely that most of the squads will have a 4+ save against most enemy weapons, and this is free.

Lastly, if your goal is to play with less men, due either to demands on painting or time, or a lack of money to buy more men, Stormtroopers are generally seen as the way to go with guard. They effectively have Carapace, and slightly better guns. Less heavy weapons, though, but more special weapons.

If you're theme-ing your army, though, then do what you like - but know that in a points-crunching manner, your army will not be optimal.

tzeentchling wrote:If I can elaborate on the above two statements:

It is generally presumed that Carapace armor is a bad doctrine to take. This is because, for the points you spend on making your individual squads a little bit harder to kill, you can usually take more, weaker squads. This means that your opponent must spend his effort among more squads. Furthermore, in addition to getting more bodies, you also get more guns, and that's something every Guard commander should be trying to do. Also, with the new cover rules, it's quite likely that most of the squads will have a 4+ save against most enemy weapons, and this is free.

Lastly, if your goal is to play with less men, due either to demands on painting or time, or a lack of money to buy more men, Stormtroopers are generally seen as the way to go with guard. They effectively have Carapace, and slightly better guns. Less heavy weapons, though, but more special weapons.

If you're theme-ing your army, though, then do what you like - but know that in a points-crunching manner, your army will not be optimal.

Hmm, you have a point, but everyone I know does SM so I'm making them to fight SM. A bolter has AP 5, which means that giving them carapace armour means the difference between having no armour save and 4+. I take a long time to paint, and so I am trying to go for toughness rather than numbers.

I'm also taking a lot of veterans, so if I take them and give them carapace armour then I essentially have stromtroopers for the same points, and I can take three special weapons. The hellguns I don't care about, because they're the same strength as lasguns but they won't pierce a space marine's armour.

Them's my reasons, although I appreciate your advice.

So COD then?

A bolter does have AP5. But again, hopefully most of your troops are in cover, or hiding behind other units (which gives you cover). That 4+ is just as good against the bolters, but free! I do understand your point, though, and it can be frustrating at times.

Again, we look to the math. Depending on the size of the army, you'd need to figure out how many more units you could take without Carapace. Next, work out whether or not the points would be worth it to have either the extra models that die for sure outside of cover, or to have fewer models, but half of them die anyway when they're shot. You could also factor in that you'd have more guns in the first case to do damage to them first, reducing the number of shots you'd take.

The ultimate thing to take away from this is that, in essence, Guard are expendable. Most of the army itself is expendable, and indeed that fits with the fluff for the army itself. As the quote goes, "Guard die. That's our job. But if we're skilled and lucky, we can make the bastards die first."

If you're just starting out, and don't have the painting time or the models available, then go ahead with Carapace. Try it out. But when you get the time and the models, consider dropping it for COD or some other sort of doctrine and taking more men, and trying to utilize cover more. You will likely find you don't need Carapace.

captain.gordino wrote:Hmm, you have a point, but everyone I know does SM so I'm making them to fight SM. A bolter has AP 5, which means that giving them carapace armour means the difference between having no armour save and 4+.

This is 5th Ed. 4+ Cover Saves are everywhere. You don't need a 4+ armour save. If you must take an armour upgrade, take Cameleoline, as that'll add to the cover save, something you should be in anyway.

Carapace Armour is a bad doctrine choice.

BYE

If you're a slow painter, tanks and other vehicles are the way to go with IG.

If you're looking for a squad that has carapace and marine-killin' punch, you'd be just as well served by taking the grenadiers doctrine. For two more points a model (versus a presumed 8 point guardsman in carapace [60{base unit}+20{carapace}=80/10=8), you get BS 4, leadership 8 and the ability to field two special weapons. Per troop choice you have the ability to three of these squads.

The downside of this option is the loss of the required JO with your average infantry platoon, though truthfully you're already on the leadership of 8 that he would bestow in his bubble. This also combats the fact that Guard bleed kill points (2 less per troop choice, as well as one fewer from the squads).

You're playing Guard?

OK, first, you take COD and Drop Troops. That's a given. They're FREE. As in Beer.

That leaves 3 other Doctrine Points.

It used to be that you'd always take Veterans, as they were grossly underpriced. But now, that Veterans' aren't Scoring, they're not as great. Still, they're good for the points, so go ahead.

You're thinking about Carapace, which is too expensive and ineffective. If you want your guys to hang around, buy Cameoline. It's cheaper and works better with all of the 4+ Cover saves in the new edition.

For the last point, you were thinking Sharpshooters?!? Yu're better off simply buying more guys.

Take Grenadiers so you can field some cheap Scoring Troops.

Veterans is still an all-but-must-have tactic for drop guard. Minimized Vet squads with meltaguns or plasma guns are still monstrously effective in 5th ed. Depending on terrain setup, they're even more effective.

Sharpshooters is a very valuable doctrine for drop command melta squads. 4 meltaguns that re-roll 1s all but guarantees death to any vehicle out there (sans monolith).

If you *really* want massed Melta death from above, instead of taking Sharpshooters across the board, buy triple-Melta SWS in lieu of Grenadiers.

You don't have to take Sharpshooters across the board. Give it to your 3 command squads, for a total upgrade cost of 50 points including the meltaguns. It's a very organic, integrative anti-tank option and also quite cost effective.

but if you took SWS squads with 3 meltas you could also give them Sharpshooter.
on top of the Command squads having 3-4 meltas and Sharpshooter could be interesting.
not sure if it's worth the 10 pts per squad?

I guess some people might be okay with 3 BS3 meltaguns and sharpshooters for 90 points. I don't think that's a good buy.

I played a Grenadier force, so for me it was very easy to choose Sharp Shooters over COD.

COD means you are a template magnet in a game where people are taking increasing numbers of templates. I had a few "tough" squads, so I didn't need to be huddling up in nice killable bunches.

Since the "core" of my army all had BS4 that meant I was mainly giving Sharp Shooters to my HQ and heavy weapons squads. Sharp Shooters is a lot of fun with massed 'guard heavy weapons!

If COD required you to always be in BtB, then the liability vs Templates would actually mean something. But COD doesn't force anything. You are free to start in dispersed formation, and then close ranks later in the game.

Let me first preface this reply with the fact that I'm not replying just because it's you DD. If anyone had posted what you posted I would have replied anyway, so don't feel victimised or whatever.

JohnHwangDD wrote:It used to be that you'd always take Veterans, as they were grossly underpriced. But now, that Veterans' aren't Scoring, they're not as great. Still, they're good for the points, so go ahead.

Since when has the scoring status (or lack there of) of H-Vets mattered to a Guard player? H-Vets are suicide units. They are designed to land, kill something important, and then die horribly (lest your opponent give them free reign to kill something else next turn). In 5th Ed, with the Lascannon being a complete waste of time when it comes to cracking tanks in cover, the meltagun has become more important. Three 75-point H-Vet units net you 9 BS4 Meltaguns. Who gives a damn if they're scoring or not.

You're thinking about Carapace, which is too expensive and ineffective. If you want your guys to hang around, buy Cameoline. It's cheaper and works better with all of the 4+ Cover saves in the new edition.

JohnHwangDD wrote:For the last point, you were thinking Sharpshooters?!?

Or Inquisitorial Storm Troopers if you don't want to waste a Doctrine Point.

BYE

I tried using sharpshooters, and agree it's not at all worth the points. I'd rather have more shot (by spending the points on more squads and/or weapons) than pay that much for a re-roll that's still going to miss half the time.

The only argument I can see for it is in a list that has lots of multi-shot weapons (ie, autocannons & heavy bolters) and already has cameleoline.

It's not something you take on an army. 10 points isn't worth 1 extra Autocannon hit per game.

Where it's useful is on a few select units. 4 guys with Meltaguns. 3 guys with Heavy Bolters. Thing is, if you ever reach a point where you're spending more than 30-40 points on Sharpshooters there's probably something better you can buy.

BYE

1. I agree with the statements about Carapace. Not worth it. Cameleoline is much better in 5th. Cover + Camo +Go to Ground is a 2+ cover save. Won a game for me at Vegas GT when the last man in a Troop unit survived 5 heavy bolter/lascannon wounds from a Land Raider.
2. Sharpshooters or COD? COD every time. With the 5th ed Charge Reaction, you should be able to boost any unit that gets assaulted to Initiative 4 when you do your Charge Reaction. Once in a while it won't work, but if you're using a decent dispersal pattern then it generally will.
That leaves Drop Trops, Iron Discipline, and Vets. Good, good, and good.

Oh, yeah, Camo is awesome. I was facing having my entire Platoon Command squad wiped. GtG on a 2+ said - nah, we'll hang around a bit longer...