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I have a friend that really sucks playing this game. But she enjoys playing with us, and she really makes big efforts to improve her gaming skills.

We use to make good army lists (at least as good as ours) for her, but she still keeps losing. So I have decided to ask for your advice.

Which kind of Space Marine (Chaos Space Marines included) army do you think is the easiest for a really new/bad player? Or what could be the same: Which army would you suggest for a 10 years old kid? (She is not this age, but it´s just for illustrating the point).

I am thinking on something like three Deathwing units with three Land Raider Crusader (and Belial, of course). All the units with the same equipment for making things really easy.

So what do you think? What kind of army list would you suggest? Do you think it could be possible to make a list so easy to play that even a kid could have expectations to win?

Thank you!

I think really you want the most forgiving list, as in, most durable, point-and-click, pretty good against anything.

How about:

Lysander

2x10 tac squad, flamer, ML
1x Rhino

Land Raider
Land Raider
Land Raider Redeemer

10x thunderhammer assault term
10x Terminator, Heavy Flamer

It won't be incredibly good, but it's very simple to play, and literally all she has to do is drive up, unload, and shoot/assault everything to death. Even if she doesn't win, it'll cause massive carnage when it loses.

Maybe someone just needs to show her how to play.

I don't mean that in the "teach her the rules" aspect, I mean teach her how to make good tactical decisions. I got my wife interested in gaming and she has gone off to play War Machine and 40K on her own (ie: without me telling her how to play her army) and has learned the rules but I've had to teach her the basics of combat and tactics. By the time most boys are old enough to start playing war games we've already been exposed to basic tactical doctrine. Even if we hadn't yet learned the fancy big words to explain these tactics, most of us understood the concepts of flanking, envelopment, and generally pounding the crap out of something with big guns from long range. Girls well, not so much...

Don't just tell her where to move and what to shoot at. Tell her why it would be a good idea to do these things.

I agree with Swordbreaker: giving her opportunities to learn the 'real life' application of the game rules is a good idea. I always suggest playing a few platoon vs platoon games with Imperial Guard because they give players a good taste for the basic rules and all the little bits in between the lines that make for a good player (like spacing units well, ordering firepower, etc).

Would depend on what enemy she's fighting. Different army lists work better against different enemies.

The army with the most simple army list is Necrons. A powerful Necron List can be made without too much thought. (not saying that all lists are this way.) I would recommend Necrons. They are tough, have ridiculous shooting and are not complicated.

Marine Battle Company... scaled to the size of your games.

1 assault squad. This is for counterattacking

2 devastator squads. This is for shooting the out of whatever she wants to

3 tacticals. gear towards shooting.


Give the tacticals and devastators rhinos.

Teach her about target priority and identifying threats. Also teach her how to use the rhinos as cover for her troops.

If she can learn target priority and minimizing what can fire at her, she has half the battle down. Play this for a few times and she will start identifying what she is missing for the style of play she likes or something that someone else has that she likes.

Keep it simple. Meltagun/Heavy Bolter for every tactical squad. 4 ML for the devastators. 2 flamers in the assault company.

If they all do the same thing, she won't screw herself up with deploying the "wrong" tactical squad for the job in that area.

For HQ, to keep it simple, chaplain with a jump pack leading the assault squad. Just teach her that one assault squad on it's own will not accomplish much so saving it until the time is right is key.

Other option is load her up with dreadnoughts. They do everything so-so. Generally very forgiving and with 6 of them (master of the forge) she should be able to present some tough choices for her opponents.

Give the tacticals and devastators rhinos.

pointless 0_o
why give devastators a rhino?
they need to be set up so they have a good view of the board.

as for an army for her:

captain

5 assult termies (3 claw, 2 hammer)
land raider (normal pattern or redeemer)

Dread, assult cannon, millile

Dread, lascannon, missile

10 tac marines
10 tac marines
10 tac marines

10 assult marines

vindicator


just a base list, but has alot of different elements in it, its easy to use, and you cant really go wrong with it.
and you cant compare her to a 10 year old
thats just harsh.

i say give her tyranids [especially spineguants: without number special rule], horde army, as it doesnt matter how many mistake she make there is always going to be troops for her. you cant loose if you can fill up half a board with nids right? ^^

If you want marines, what about World Eaters?

Put berserkers in land raiders. Drive up shooting, assault out of raiders.

Lather, rinse and repeat (there's a concept she should understand *OW - gets hit by wife's psychic backlash!*)

As said above, Necrons; really easy to play (and not so expensive, mostly plastics, except immortals)

Other option: Nidzilla.

The sheer number of models is overwhelming to new players. I agree with the DAddict who suggested smaller games to let her (or anyone) learn the game mechanics. As far as a list is concerned, marines or necrons. By their very nature they are durable, play forgivingly, and have low model counts with basic statlines that are redundant throughout the list.

Be very careful how you approach this in both your non-verbal and verbal communication throughout this process. You don't want to turn her off. Maybe for her the fun is in moving lot's of models around and she doesn't care if she gets trounced. Like you said, this is how boys first learned to play, trial and error playing with army men. If this is the stage she is at and is having fun playing the game, let her develop at her own pace, but keep her interested in it.

Well, I'd take a list with 6 Dreads in drop pods. Three of them with lascannons dropped in the backfield and three with heavy flamers dropped close to the enemy. Add a few tacticals in drop pods for scoring purposes and shooty goodness.

2 Daemon Princes w/lash
3x 2 or 3 man squads of Obliterators

X Noise Marines w/rhinos with the rest of your points

What army does she play now?

I think a couple of "teaching" games could help. After playing horribly my first game a guy at my local GW store played me 2 "teaching games" where he made me question every move I made and then analyze every move he made verbally.

One great example of this was I had two units of firewarriors one unit was able to fire on two targets, the other only one. I was about to fire the unit that could choose fire first when he asked why I didn’t fire the unit that could only fire at one target first.

Of course his orks KILLED me both games but it really helped.

2 Daemon Princes w/lash
3x 2 or 3 man squads of Obliterators

X Noise Marines w/rhinos with the rest of your points

That's not bad either. In larger games, add a 10 men Terminator squad with 2 heavy flamers and 2 power fists; I won a tourney with such a list recently.

JD21290 wrote:

Give the tacticals and devastators rhinos.

pointless 0_o
why give devastators a rhino?
they need to be set up so they have a good view of the board.

1)A rhino's cheap
2)Block incoming fire
3)Help Devs get into position if they can't start in a decent position
4)act as backup transport for another squad

Orks.

Point

Click

Nurglitch is right. Start real simple and build up stressing: target priority; movement priority; objectives; planning a turn ahead.

You could also start her off with an additional x% in forces.

Low cut blouse, short skirt.....she'll win all of her games if she wears those.

No matter what army she plays.


Nuff said.

Really, one of the most important things is that she likes the army. In all seriousness, that's the primary consideration. There are viable lists out there for /everyone/, once she picks an army. Granted, I'd probably not recommend starting with Daemonhunters (a crapload of special rules, and odd circumstances) or Dark Eldar (ancient codex designed for two or three rule sets ago). However. The best way to learn ... is to play. The best way to play is to enjoy the models & fluff of whatever you're starting out with. If she's completely neutral, I'd recommend Orks. Not only are they relatively easily avaliable (What with all the Black Reach stuff out there), but for me at least, Orks are alot of fun, even when they fail spectacularly. And they have a recent codex with a couple strong options.

Ultimately however, the /army/ she picks is not all that important. Help her pick a solid list (doesn't have to be GT winning, or anything) and play some 'teaching' games with her. Switch armies and show how you'd run her army. Switch sides in the middle of a game, if you like, and show how to get out of (or into) trouble. Play without keeping score, or with 'minor victory' conditions. For instance:

My girlfriend really likes the fluff for the SoB. When she started, we did combat patrol stuff, then moved up to higher points games. She was having some trouble, so we did narrative games (which she liked, for the fluff tie ins) and where she could have a 'narrative' victory for things like getting her Canoness off the table safely, etc. By picking these 'small objectives' we worked on things she was having trouble with. (Like how to shield ICs, back when you could do so more easily). Or concentration of fire (a Helm's Deep scenario, where she had to stop the guy with the orbital beacon from reaching her deployment zone). Eventually, she was as good or better at the rules and gamesmanship as I was. (though she still has a tendency to be more 'fluffy' than I am. And she's /convinced/ her Repentia are going to be useful ... someday)

Anyway, my recommendation is that she picks an army she likes, model and fluff-wise, and then just gets to play. From a learning perspective, multiple CP games are better for basics than a 5000 point apocalypse extravaganza.

We stopped playing 'teaching games' after she tabled me a couple of times.

Does she really want to play or is she humouring you? If her heart is not in it she will not learn it.

If she does like the games let her choose, no matter what.

To make fair games witha learning curve start by playing scenarios. Set up both lists and the victory conditions and terrain. Suggest a strategy for her or replay as both sides.
If your scenario is set up right you can teach various tactics from the outset, such as a 'cover based game, then a movement based game etc.

Timmah wrote:2 Daemon Princes w/lash
3x 2 or 3 man squads of Obliterators

X Noise Marines w/rhinos with the rest of your points

This.

Convert the ECs out of normal CSM and some tyranid bits for the sonic weapons. And do 3x3 Oblits. Convert them out of a box of termies and a box of chaos spawn. Done. All you have to do is paint it bright pink and black. Throw some red in there too I guess. And make all the little bolts in the armor boltgun or silver?

Seriously. This would be easy as hell and win a good amount.

Thank you very much for all the replies!

I think I´ve not explained clearly, sorry about that. She has been playing for two or three years. She has read the rule book almost ten times. She has played a lot of games with different kind of armies, and with different amounts of points.

But she is still really BAD. We have spent several hours several days teaching her, but sometimes it feels that is useless. She makes the same mistakes again and again, we remember her KINDLY (really), and maybe two games later she is making the same mistakes. I hope she will learn play better with time, but actually she plays the best she can play, and teaching her only makes her feel stupid.

So I think the best for her (and us) is just give her good (and EASY to play) lists so she can keep learning but without losing or feeling that we are not playing at 100%.

We she is playing with an army with a lot of models she feels nervous. She usually need a lot of time just for moving, and she makes a lot of mistakes trying to be faster. We always say to her that she can take as much time as she need, but she still feels bad and keep trying to do it faster and keep making mistakes.

I have been thinking a lot, and I still cant find the answers I really need. What does an army EASY to play with? Is it possible to make an easy to play and good army?

I have a few ideas on mind:
- If there is units of the same type, make then exactly the same (equipment, size, etc)
- Fewer models is better than a lot (vehicles with models inside counts as fewer models)
- Specific roles for the list. CC, Shooty...
- And... ...

.......

Crap, I don't really know

What do you think? Would it be a horde list easy to play? An all Assault Marines BA list? All Termis? A lot of LR? Nidzillas?

Thank you very much for all the good advice, it is been really helpful

Sounds like the less models the better. I really think the necrons would suit her well:

Some of the most abusive aspects of necrons versus other armies:

WBB~makes them harder than space marines becaus they get back up 50% of the time.

gauss weapons~any roll to wound of a 6 causes wounds regardless of targets toughness AND any vehicle hit suffers a glancing hit on a roll of 6.

the monolith~it is the best tank in the game. This thing has the particle whip AP3 ordnance blast, it can deep strike right on top of enemy models forcing them to get out the way and fire the flux arc, and it can use its portal to get more necrons WBB and/or get the warriors out of hth.


Teach her the phalanx formation and build this list:

@1750

Lord w/ destroyer body, res orb

Destroyers 1x5

Immortal 1x5

Warriors 4x10

Monolith x2

It is cookie-cutter, compact, durable, forgiving, shooty and easy to learn.

i now agree
necrons are very simple to use, very cheap, and very easy to paint

and you cant go too far wrong with that.

or with 2-3 monoliths she then has 3 models that are pretty hard to kill.

You say she keeps making 'mistakes', what do you mean by that? One of the hardest thing in this (or indeed, any other game with many choices) is determining what your playstyle is. Does she keep wanting to get into assaults with her troops? Maybe she should consider an assault oriented army (Nids, Ork, BA or Chaos). Hang back to shoot but strays out of cover? Necrons' have the durability and firepower to work that way.

There are plenty of average to good players out there that only really play well when they get their hands on the army that suits their play style. Once they master that they gain confidence and can take on other armies with different play styles.

Ky'Alur wrote:I have a few ideas on mind:
- If there is units of the same type, make then exactly the same (equipment, size, etc)
- Fewer models is better than a lot (vehicles with models inside counts as fewer models)
- Specific roles for the list. CC, Shooty...
- And... ...

Like I said, you know what her play style is better then us, but based on what you say, my suggestions would be;
Close combat oriented? Try a Chaos SM army with emphasis on Khorne Zerkers: expensive troops means fewer models, good armor saves and fearless makes them forgiving of mistakes. Some obliterators (most versatile shooters in the game) as dedicated long range folks and either rhinos or land raiders for mobility and you have a respectable force. Orks and Nids are also good choices, but Orks have loads of models and I would hesitate to recommend nidzilla to anyone that lacks confidence.

Shooty? Necrons. Of all the armies out there, Necrons emphasis durability and specialization: except the Lords, every model of a given type is exactly the same. Use 2 blocks of warriors, 2 units of Destroyers, a monolith and fill in the rest with a lord configured to your liking and immortals and go to town.

Most of all, don't make her feel that playing with her is a chore. Everybody takes their own amount of time to get into their groove in this game, they'll get there if they don't get frustrated and quit.

dornsfist wrote:the monolith~it is the best tank in the game. This thing has the particle whip AP3 ordnance blast, it can deep strike right on top of enemy models forcing them to get out the way and fire the flux arc,

It can't fire the Flux Arc on the turn it Deepstrikes, as it counts as moving at Cruising Speed, and is not a Fast vehicle. It can fire the Particle Whip however, as the rules for it allow it to fire even when it moves.

The answer is Necrons.

No need to worry about special weapons to kill tanks, They get back up so even if you do something really dumb you can get lucky and it wont matter. C'tans are nigh indestructible, and they are easy to paint to boot!