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Hi,

I'm relatively new to this game and as well as this forum, and have learned alot from the posters here. My main opponent is Tau and has his hands full normally when i lock him in CC, but all other players I've faced are MEQ and at times it seems like I can barely dent their forces. I play Orks , and use a variation of lists (still figuring out my own style).

My last game I ran roughly 1800 points composed of the following:

Biker warboss with cybork and pk
5 biker nobs w/ painboy, pk and bosspole

12 trukk nobs w/ painboy, pk and bosspole

KFF Big mek
20 'ard boyz
20 slugga boyz
20 slugga boyz
5 Burnas (mostly protected by other mobs)
all units of boyz have pk nobs and bosspoles

The problem seems like I can't ever drop enough marines due to the 3+ armor saves or my numbers dwindle late game due to all the shooting. Does my list need improvement? More efficient point usage? Different unit selections? or am I just unlucky?

Any suggestions are welcome.
Thanks!!

What exactly do you have problems with? I mean, orks, you should be able to run into combat and stuff dies. Can you be more specific where your trouble areas are?

I'd say you don't have focus. 60 orks don't really cut it in 1800. I run at least 90 in basically all of my lists over 1500. The bikernobz are probably a decent investment, but they definitely are expensive. I personally don't run them under 2000, and even then I usually don't put them in until 2250 or 2500. The squad of 12 nobz is probably overkill. Maybe dividing it up into 2 squads of 6, and putting each in a truck. That could also help with making sure you get stuck in.

So, I'd go with more boyz, maybe drop the nob bikers (models permitting). Also, I wouldn't really take the 'ard boyz upgrade, and try mobz of 30. It makes the fearlessness last longer, and it is hard to overkill a squad of MEQ's with 30 orks, especially if they loose some on the way in.

Hope this helps.

Well most of the time I play my numbers seem to get wiped out by shooting. Even with the KFF and a unit of 'ard boyz up front as a screen. Sometimes I wonder if I'm just unlucky and get bad rolls. It also doesn't help that the last game I played i took something like 15 power weapon wounds, wiping out one of my units entirely. As you said when I get into CC things just die, which seems to happen when facing Tau.. All MEQ armies I've faced typically seem to hold their own, and I'm just wondering if I need to revise my list or my tactics? And by tactics I mean run into CC as fast as I can so I can't be cut down by enemy fire.

Maybe it's just beginner's bad luck..?

Yea I could see how 60 orks can be light at that many points. I have 20 more waiting to be assembled so that should help. Ideally I'm shooting for 120. Plus some lootas and/or burnas in trukks once I have time to put it all together. I had the 12 nobs so I could get them all in one trukk (only have one at the moment).

So would you say that for orks there really is no one "anti-meq" tactic? Seeing as how the ork tactic of overloading opponents with anythign they can is simple enough to apply to any army?

ok, just a quick few things that would benefit you:

the burna boyz arent much use as there are so few of them.

drop those and thats 75 points saved.
run the 20 ard boyz as basic boyz to save another 80 points.

the trukk nobz arent much use atall, they are using up alot of your points.

aim for atleast 3 units of 30 boyz, give them 3 rokkit launchas for use against vehicles or marines.

adding ghaz tothe army means alot, he may cost alot of points, but his waaagh! is worth it.
1st turn: move forward 6", then run.
2nd turn: move 6", waaagh! 6",then assult 6"

this gives you an effective assult range of 25" - 30" in 2 turns.
so you wont take too much fire.

List:

Ghaz - 225

30 boyz, 3 rokkitz, nob, bozzpole, klaw - 250
30 boyz, 3 rokkitz, nob, bozzpole, klaw - 250
30 boyz, 3 rokkitz, nob, bozzpole, klaw - 250

thats 975 points, and the core of your army.

additional:

big mek, KFF, eavy armour - 100

12 boyz, 1 big shoota, nob, bosspole, klaw - 117
trukk, red paint job - 40

12 boyz, 1 big shoota, nob, bosspole, klaw - 117
trukk, red paint job - 40

5 meganobz, kombi skorcha x2 - 210 (go with ghaz) (count as troop)
Trukk - 35

3 killa kanz, kustom mega blastas - 165


1,799 points.

6 units that can hold objectives.
anti tank fire power:
Kustom mega blasta x3
rokkit launcha x10 (1 is TL)
11 power klawz
3 DCCW's

you have enough boyz to swamp most armies, and enough hitting power to make it effective.

use:

move forward as fast as possible, use a unit of trukk boyz on each flank (try to keep in cover if possible)
weather the shooting then charge in.
the meganobz and ghaz ride in thier own trukk, chare them in with the boyz, ifcharged in on thier own they will get surrounded.
use the kanz as fire support whie moving them forward.

thats just a rough plan and list that should be more than effective.

I'll have to give this list a try sometime. I'm short on the mega nobs and kans, but I can give this a shot. I was always apprehensive on mega armored units because of Slow and Purposeful. I thought Ghaz might be a dangerous pick because of it, but wanted to do a full on green tide eventually, so he'd be ideal.

Another thing that hurt me during a match was, one of them had a unit that hit me with i think like 15 power weapons and then some.. it was brutal. Honor guard or vanguard? I'm really not sure. Not much can stop that I assume? Cept maybe shooting like crazy.

once ghaz uses his waaagh! his save becomes Inv. untill the next turn
so he will have a 2+ save against that.

if they are that much of a problem then shoot them with the kanz.

kanz with KMB's: 3 shots per turn, 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound with no saves.
means 1-2 dead in that unit per turn.
how many of them are there in that unit?

MEQ do not like Lootas. If you put enough wounds onto them, they die.

If possible, try to lure that unit out into the open with boyz. Against them, Power weapons go to waste, and if you can get the charge off on them, they are most likely dead, or at least maimed, and you probably spent a fraction of their points on destroying them. Just try to avoid them with nobz, and take them down with multiple attacks and klaws.

Well for that one unit I didn't have much choice as I was already engaged in combat with another group.

I'm building up 15 lootas eventually, so we'll see how things go with that. My next list will look similar to what JD suggested, but since I lack the Kans, I'll replace them with lootas.

So far though it sounds like I'm fairing better than I had originally thought. I'll have to sacrifice more to Gork and Mork so they might grant me more 6's on my dice in the future :p

Thanks so much for all the replies so far!

no probs and good luck with the orks
i gotta get some sleep now, then get another 60 boyz together and painted lol

Is the marine on foot or in rhinos or equivalent? Jump packs? Any of those get to pick when the assault happens and that is not good for you.

Orks need to charge and they need to swamp their opponent.

Some suggestions... cheap trukk boys. Their job is to hopefully charge in before your opponent can charge you. This is not so that they win but so that your following on foot boyz can charge in. 12 boyz with a plain old nob... 82 points. Cheap trukk 35 or so points.


Other is a dime a piece. Shoota boyz. Look at it this way. Probably 2 chances to shoot him with 2 shots a piece and 3 attacks on the charge versus slugga boyz that get 1 shot at best and then 4 attacks a piece on the charge. All the rounds after the first don't really matter. We are talking you need to charge and that means S4 attacks. Nothing wimpers like a half shot up boyz mob that got charged. 10 marines 21 attacks on you all going first is probably 5 dead boyz. So even if he didn't flame you or shoot you up with bolt pistols. (Should cause 3 kills without a flamer in shooting...) You have 15 remaining sluggas... 45 attacks, 22 hits, 7 wound because you are at S3 and you kill about 2 on average... Now your nob, with 4 claw attacks just needs to kill 3 more marines on his own or you lost the combat!

Trukk boyz for slugga boyz. Shootas on foot.

A marine tac squad with a heavy bolter should lift about 5 boyz in a straight up firefight. Your 20-boy mobz get 40 shots with sluggas,
should hit about 13 times and hopefully wound about 6 averaging 2 dead. That is pretty fair 5 boyz- 30 points. 2 marines about 30 points. Shoot him twice before you hit home and we are talking about 10 to 12 orks hitting 6 marines. A lot better than slugga boyz with 15 boyz (should hit one turn earlier with a run and a waagh) facing an intact marine squad.

Now to the point... the above is assuming your 20 ork mobz... up it to 25... and even with his shooting up.. we are talking 15-17 shoota boyz on 6 marines or 20 sluggas on 10 marines. Take it to 30 and even with his shooting, your 30 boyz should still be hitting him with about 20 and he should only have about 4 marines left!!! That sounds like an outright win for you.

Well so far only in the most recent game have I come across rhinos and jump packs. I agree with you there though about not being able to choose when to fight. any time the charge is stolen it can definitely hurt.

Just to clarify DAaddict, are you suggesting I make my foot sloggers shoota boyz and all trukk boyz sluggas?

I see how the combat would work out, but if you are suggesting I change my footsloggers to mostly shootas, it kind of doesnt' help much in my experience (though admittedly is little). Wouldn't it defeat the purpose of running as much as I do just to get into combat? The way I see it is if the ork strength is in close combat, it would be better to play to that and stack on an extra +1A than hope to wittle down a few where I'm significantly less efficient.

Orks are NOT a close combat army. They are shooting army that can win close combat. No other army can bring as many S 4 shots to the table as orks. Heck, with the right list you can even bring more S 5 to the table than tau. Sure ork BS sucks, but so does the other "shooty" lists. Orks are just really bad shots, but there are so very many of them. Shoota boyz cost the same as guardsmen, have better WS, T, can be fearless, get more attacks in CC, furious charge, can get worthwhile powerfist, and their weapons are assault 2 not rapid fire at a higher S. All this makes up for the fact they hit just 1/3 of the time.

Personally I don't even run very often, only on the waaagh turn, and only if i need to actually assault. The problem with running, is that your opponent will get 2 or so turns where his entire army is engaging yours, but you are doing nothing relevant to him. Then he uses his counter assault elements to pick and choose his combats. Great way to be taken apart piecemeal and defeated in detail.

notabot, you say that orks aren't CC because while they cost the same as gaurdsmen, they have better WS, T and are fearless in large groups, but these are qualities you can take best advantage of when stuck in the fight surely? But I do agree with you when you say they are effective at shooting, no one wants 60 S4 hits thrown at them from just one mob of 30 do they?

Do you use Waagh! and the run move or do you rather walk and shoot back? To get stuck in I'd rather run. CC armies always do the damage somewhat later than gunlines. Of course, as notabot points out, this depends on the actual configuration of your list, as you can include several quite shooty units.

Do you include powerklaw nobz in your mobs? These are essential against MEQ's. 10 surviving Orks from a mob should dish out 40 attacks and statistically take down 3 marines. Of course you must make sure that you get the charge. This momentum is very much needed. Getting charged by marines will hurt though.

Squig101 wrote:notabot, you say that orks aren't CC because while they cost the same as gaurdsmen, they have better WS, T and are fearless in large groups, but these are qualities you can take best advantage of when stuck in the fight surely? But I do agree with you when you say they are effective at shooting, no one wants 60 S4 hits thrown at them from just one mob of 30 do they?

What they cost compared to guardsmen, Rhinos or sliced bread is utterly immaterial. Those 60 shots are not even going to kill a single guard squad, and having to shoot two thirds of your mobs at a single guard squad is nothing I'd call a shooty army. They would however rip them a new one in CC.

However, we're talking about marines. Shooting at marines is even worse in terms of models killed. You're looking at 3.3 dead marines from those 60 shots. Of course this will add up over several turns and mobs but with all the new shenanigans of the marine codex and even compares favourably with the same points in marines shooting back. Nevertheless, that assumes a straight gunfight, no flamers/frag/Land Raiders and your opponent standing still. Not likely with jumppackers, so I wouldn't rely on that.

You must avoid to arrive piecemeal, and you must avoid to attack here and there a little bit. In addition, some maneuvering is necessary to get the charge. What you could do is to have a backup for any mob that is charged, so the offenders die as well.

Another thing that hurt me during a match was, one of them had a unit that hit me with i think like 15 power weapons and then some.. it was brutal.

You should love to see Power Weapons. Then you know your opponent spent a bunch of points on gear that denies your Orks a 6+ save. Who cares?

Orks are NOT a close combat army. They are shooting army that can win close combat.

No, Orks are most definitely a close combat army. Yes, it's popular to field the max in Lootas, and shoot a lot. That's one broken unit in the list that shoots, not a shooty list.

This is an army with 6 point models that have WS4, Furious Charge, and 2A base. What do we call that? That's right, "a close combat army."

Orks are NOT a close combat army.

0_o
fire warriors are one of the best CC units in 40k aswell.

I threw together a fun little something for you.
You probably don't have the models, but it was worth shooting out at you, anyway.
It's got a mix of hard hitting and fun.

THIS IS NOT AN OPTIMIZED LIST.
It was created to keep you from getting slaughtered, yet still allow you to have fun with Orks. If you and/or your opponent aren't laughing while you play Orks, you're doing something wrong.

(all Boyz are Slugga Boyz & All Nobz have PK and Bosspole)

Mad Dok Grotsnik
18 'Ard Boyz & 1 Nob (4+ saves with FNP)
Battlewagon (Load up MDG and the boys & watch them go)
-Armor Plates, Deff Rolla, Grot Rigger, Red Paint Job, Stikkbomb Chukka

(4X)
11 Boyz & 1 Nob in a Trukk -Red Paint Job & Stikkbomb Chukka (MOVE FAST)

7 TankBustas & 1 Nob w/ 1 Tankhammer & 3 Bomb Squigs (sit back & snipe armor. Release ALL 3 squigs at earliest opportunity that they have a target)

6 Kommandos & Snikrot with 2 Burnas
(Bring these in next to an important enemy unit and annihilate it... preferably in or near cover.)

(2x)
Deffkopta unit (2 strong)
1 w/ Buzzsaw, 1 Stock (stock one should be the 1st to die to wounds... hopefully)
----(I would outflank with these or use their scout move to Turbo Boost)


Big Mek w/ Shokk Attack Gun & Choppa (sit back & snipe)

That comes to 1798 points.
Drop 23 points somewhere, and you can give the Big Mek a PK (not a bad idea to give him a PK or Burna -preferably PK- since he can be teleported into HtH with his target, due to the SAG)

Alternatively, you can drop the Big Mek (he's 100 points, or 125 with a PK)

If you drop him, you can add:
Kannon, Lobba or Zapp Gun battery
3x Guns
2x Ammo Runt
1x Additional Krew
1x Runt Herd w/ Grot Prod
--(I prefer to drop blasts with these, as they are not auto-miss. You only have to worry about scatter. Thus, I avoid Zapp Guns.)


Total will be 1797 points

That's 88 Models (sans vehicles) with the Big Mek or 94 with a Weapon Battery. To include the vehicles, add 5 to the model count.

Not nearly as many as you can get with a foot slogger force, but it gets stuck in FAST and it hits HARD.

Eric

Thanks for the list Magical, I actually have most of that stuff save for the Kommandos and the Big Gunz at the bottom for fun. Oh and also the Dok, but that does look like it'd be fun having all those units chasing target units around with the Kommandos harassing early on.

And I do believe orks have potential to be shooty, there's no denying that, but the problem lies in the fact that once their numbers start to drop the effectiveness does as well. This is also true in close combat, but when comparing the reliability of a CC ork army and a shooty ork army, I would say the close combat one would likely win out more often than not against most opponents and it would likely be more consistent.

That's all i can do for now. Class is starting

breadhat wrote:Thanks for the list Magical, I actually have most of that stuff save for the Kommandos and the Big Gunz at the bottom for fun. Oh and also the Dok, but that does look like it'd be fun having all those units chasing target units around with the Kommandos harassing early on.

And I do believe orks have potential to be shooty, there's no denying that, but the problem lies in the fact that once their numbers start to drop the effectiveness does as well. This is also true in close combat, but when comparing the reliability of a CC ork army and a shooty ork army, I would say the close combat one would likely win out more often than not against most opponents and it would likely be more consistent.

That's all i can do for now. Class is starting

Glad to help.

No Kommandos? No problem.
"These models here (points at Nobs) are REALLY BIG Kommandos."
I don't have any actual Kommando models wither... and I won't... I'm converting them out ot AoBR Nobs.
Same for Grotsnik. If you're playing with friends, just substitute a regular Painboy or a Warboss.

As for the Big Guns... Got grots? If you have enough of them, I'm certain you can find or make SOMETHING to proxy them until you decide if you like how they work.
Pffft. At GW prices, that's one MORE model I won't buy, as well.

...and, in case my list didn't show it, I believe Orks are HtH. NO army with BS2 is "shooty."
Plus, look at all their special rules. Tthey're HtH based.

Eric

Yea, your list was clearly HtH based especially with the Dok in there heading up all those Trukk boyz. I was more just responding to the previous posters discussion.

Orks in general are definitely an in your face, CC army. Despite that fact that they have some competitive options that are based on shooting, I wouldn't really consider that to be their strength. With a BS of 2, you'd be playing the odds and just hoping most of those shots land. But oh.. when they do... ^___^

Squig101 wrote:notabot, you say that orks aren't CC because while they cost the same as gaurdsmen, they have better WS, T and are fearless in large groups, but these are qualities you can take best advantage of when stuck in the fight surely? But I do agree with you when you say they are effective at shooting, no one wants 60 S4 hits thrown at them from just one mob of 30 do they?

heh, I knew that would get some reactions with me saying they aren't a CC army. I just personally like getting more attacks for my points by shooting turn 2 and 3, rather than just running and still not get the turn 3 charge. I like truk assault armies, feels like playing dark eldar, but just a bit stronger and tougher.

Orks are more survivable in shooting, 4+ cover vs 6+ in combat. Crappy Int means even with FC you will go last most of the time. You are only S4 during one turn of assault, so if you fail to wipe (which vs marines is quite easy to fail to do) you are hitting at S3. The PK is the work horse of the ork army, I will not deny that. I've found in big mobs that having multiple turns of S4 shots at range is more effective one turn of extra S4 and possible extra S3 after the charge (which you won't always get). Both units still carry the weapon that matters: the PK.

BS 2 is a drawback, but throwing buckets of dice help with this.

Here is a list that might be fun, my friend played something like the other day to a huge victory. Not a tourney army for sure, nothing too cheesy. Ghaz is optional, but fun.

Ghaz
warboss with bike, PK, cybork, BP, attack squig

6 Nob bikers w/painboy 3 with Pk 2 big choppas, 2 combi scrorcha, 1 banner, painboy with grot. All war gear different for some wound allocation fun. Count as troop
5 Meganobs with 2 combi scrochas, and 1 combi rocket riding a battlewagon with roller, extra armour, cannon, and 2x big shoota. counts as troops
2x 30 pack of boyz with shootas and 3x big shootas with nob w/ PK and bosspole
2x 5 pack of lootas

How i have it here should come to 1800, the base list had more nob bikers, and I think a few more lootas. It also had no ghaz, a unit of grots, a shock attack gun, and i think a 4x combat arm dread, but I took those out.

For shooting this has just 10 lootas, but 9 big shootas, 7 dakkaguns, a cannon, a one shot rocket, 2 1 shot heavy flamers and still manages to bring a good quantity of shoota shots. It also brings 12 powerklaws, a death rolla, and a 6 inch fleet turn. Its dedicated assault elements (the meganobs and bikers) have enough movement to choose combat, and the other units act in support of them. It has very costly units, but still brings 80+ models to the table.

I like your argument, sorry if I am being stupid, but where do the orks get the 4+ cover save from?

4+ cover save from staying in cover.

Orks MUST use cover on the way in or they get shot to bits. - even if it means you are moving slower, and assaulting a turn later, the cover saves are a must.
Remember only 51% percent of the unit needs to be in cover for them all to get cover saves.

Also units can get cover from other units in front of them.

I think the cover save he is referring to is from the Big Mek's Kustom Force Field. Although he's slightly off, as KFF only transfers a +4 to any vehicles within range of KFF. Footslogging infantry get +5 cover saves.

can you be sure of getting cover for all your units all the way from terrain though?
I think breadhat is thinking of the more likely/reliable tactic

I've found in big mobs that having multiple turns of S4 shots at range is more effective one turn of extra S4 and possible extra S3 after the charge (which you won't always get).

A boy shooting with a Shoota gets 2 shots, BS2. Hitting on a 5+, he gets an average of .67 hits at S4.

A boy assaulting with a Slugga and Choppa gets 4 attacks, WS4. Assuming he's hitting on a 4+, he gets an average of 2 hits at S4.

You need 3 rounds of shooting with that Shoota to equal what a Slugga Boy can do in one round on the charge. And that's assuming the target is WS4. Make that WS3, and now the Slugga Boy is 4 times more effective.

So, your point is pretty much wrong. Basic Boyz belong in combat, and Orks are a CC army.

The question of Shoota vs Choppa is still open for debate. All those Shoota shots on the way in might be worth having at the cost of 1A in CC... But that's the thing, they're shots taken on the way in. Not, "on the way to getting within 18 inches and then stopping."

Bottom line: Orks are a CC army that can produce a suprising amount of shooting. They're not a shooty army.

Both units still carry the weapon that matters: the PK.

Not really. The Klaw is really there to protect the Boyz, the Boyz aren't a caddy for the Klaw.

A single Ork Slugga Boy is 6 points. He gets 4A on the charge, S4 WS4. Against MEqs, that's 2 hits, 1 wound, .33 dead Marines, or .056 dead Marines per point.

An Ork Nob with a Klaw is 41 points. He gets 4A on the charge, S8 WS4. Against MEqs, that's 2 hits, 1.67 dead Marines, or .040 dead Marines per point.

If you just wanted to kill Marines, you wouldn't take a Klaw, you'd take more Boyz.

The reason you take the Klaw, is to deal with Dreads, Vehicles, TMCs, and ICs.

charging nob gets 4 S9 attacks
and i say the klaw is worth it every time.
if you cant afford the points make sure he atleast has a big choppa (S7 on charge)

The reason you take the Klaw, is to deal with Dreads, Vehicles, TMCs, and ICs.

and terminators and other things that refuse to die.