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Hiya, I'm possibly making myself like a complete Noob by asking this but I must admit I'm a little confused about the rules for deployment.

1. When doing deployment, does the first player simply deploy his ENTIRE army at once? Keeping reserves in reserve and infiltrate after all deployment as normal?

2. How does this affect IC's? In the old 4th Edition, you used to have to deploy the IC's before attaching them to another squad (does not apply to the retinues)

I ask this as I've heard rumours that the SM IC Shrike can infiltrate the unit he is with, and to this end, people have implied that this can be used to infiltrate Terminiators. I've looked through the whole rulebook and cannot find enough evidence to prove this true or false as both arguments I've heard are valid.

Any help is much appriciated. Help! lol

Yes you do deploy your entire force at once. The old 4th ed rules for deploying diffrent unit types in different orders is no longer the case.

And as far as I know, Shrike can infiltrate with Termies.

an IC can be attached to any unit when it is deployed now meaning that yes he can grant terminators infiltrate, he could also be held in reserve and flank march with them because when you put a unit in reserves you specify makeup, including whether ICs are attached.

5th Ed makes deployment painless. You simply pick what you want on the board and slap it down, in whatever configuration you like. The rest, you hold in Reserves and specify DS, Outflank, etc. Really, it's much better.

Thanks guys
Because the BRB didn't specify it, I just wanted to double check as I hate playing rules wrong lol. Made a bit of a tit of myself in another thread lol, ah well

Drunkspleen wrote:an IC can be attached to any unit when it is deployed now meaning that yes he can grant terminators infiltrate, he could also be held in reserve and flank march with them because when you put a unit in reserves you specify makeup, including whether ICs are attached.

One correction: ICs joined to a unit do not get the special rule of the unit unless the rule specifically says they do (page 48 of the rulebook). Since Shrike's special rule doesn't specifically say that it applies to other ICs it does not.

yakface wrote:One correction: ICs joined to a unit do not get the special rule of the unit unless the rule specifically says they do (page 48 of the rulebook). Since Shrike's special rule doesn't specifically say that it applies to other ICs it does not.

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here yak, I didn't think I made any references to this.

Either way, wouldn't an ic attached to shrike be part of the unit shrike is attached to?

Edit: or is this a more basic thing, surely you are aware that shrike grants infiltrate to the unit he is attached to?

Drunkspleen wrote:I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here yak, I didn't think I made any references to this.

Either way, wouldn't an ic attached to shrike be part of the unit shrike is attached to?

Edit: or is this a more basic thing, surely you are aware that shrike grants infiltrate to the unit he is attached to?

Yes, Shrike grants infiltrate to the unit he joins. However, any other ICs joined to that unit would not get the benefit of that special rule per page 48 of the rulebook:

"When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

In order for Shrike's infiltrate rule to apply to another IC joined to the unit it would have to be written something like this:

"Shrike, models in his squad, including other Independent Characters, benefit from the infiltrate special rule"


Because his rule isn't written this way it only applies to himself and the unit he joins, but not to any other ICs that join the unit.

hmm Interesting take, I'd just assumed that an IC would count as part of the squad but I definitely see your point.

Just wondering if there are any instances of it being written the way you suggest is required for granting it to ICs (although I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't)

To clarify, I was aware of that rule that they don't share special rules unless it said otherwhise but I thought it would be like as an example

Chaplain attaches to unit consisting of 5 terminators
Shrike attaches to unit consisting of 5 terminators + 1 chaplain granting them all infiltrate

Drunkspleen wrote:hmm Interesting take, I'd just assumed that an IC would count as part of the squad but I definitely see your point.

Just wondering if there are any instances of it being written the way you suggest is required for granting it to ICs (although I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't)

To clarify, I was aware of that rule that they don't share special rules unless it said otherwhise but I thought it would be like as an example

Chaplain attaches to unit consisting of 5 terminators
Shrike attaches to unit consisting of 5 terminators + 1 chaplain granting them all infiltrate

There are a few rules out there that specify they are passed onto joined ICs, for example the Fearless USR in the rulebook.

It is a good catch-all rule that kills a lot of potentially nasty loopholes: unless the special rule specifically says it applies to joined ICs it doesn't.

I'm really glad that it exists because it stops really weird things from occurring, like a non-Terminator IC joining a Terminator unit and Deep Striking with them or a biker Warboss joining Snikrot's unit and then coming in from the enemy's deployment zone, etc.

Shrike is a bit different from those other units though.

How do you differentiate between the assault marines joined to Shrike, and the master of the forge joined to Shrike? In both cases the other model(s) is/are covered by the description "models in his squad".

A second IC joined to Shrike isn't gaining Infiltrate from the squad - it's gaining it directly from Shrike, via Shrike's rules, because by joining him it becomes one of the "models in his squad".

Boss Ardnutz wrote:Shrike is a bit different from those other units though.

How do you differentiate between the assault marines joined to Shrike, and the master of the forge joined to Shrike? In both cases the other model(s) is/are covered by the description "models in his squad".

A second IC joined to Shrike isn't gaining Infiltrate from the squad - it's gaining it directly from Shrike, via Shrike's rules, because by joining him it becomes one of the "models in his squad".

The RAW demands that the special rule in question must specify that it applies to characters for it to do so. Shrike is an IC but he is also a unit. Another IC who joins him does not gain the ability because it doesn't specify that it applies to other ICs.

Any other interpretation breaks that rule.

I still disagree. Shrike does not just have the "Infiltrate" rule. Shrike's See, But Remain Unseen rule explicitly grants Infiltrate to every model in his squad.

Therefore an IC joined to Shrike gains the Infiltrate rule in its own right, for as long as it remains joined to Shrike, as during this time is it indeed "a model in his squad".

Any other interpretation renders the "and models in his squad" part of See, But Remain Unseen useless as any squad Shrike joins is just as much a unit as an IC he joins. If an IC he joins doesn't pick up the Infiltrate rule from See, But Remain Unseen, then neither can any other unit he joins.

I agree with Boss Ardnutz. The rule on page 48 is for special rules that originate from the models themselves, ie skills they have inherently. Examples are Scout squads having Infiltrate and Scouts or Vanguard having Heroic Intervention.

If the special rule does not originate from the unit itself but is applied to it externally then all models in the unit is affected, including any ICs that is currently joined to it. In this category Shrike's special rule falls. The FNP gained Narthecium or the extra attack gained from a Chapter Banner works in the same way. Orks have similar examples in Dok's Tools and Waaagh! Banner.
It's also worth to mention the Chaos Icons works in the same way but explicitly prohibits ICs from gaining the rule. I know that GW are not consistent in their rules writing but in this case I believe there is logic to it. Why would there be an exception for ICs gaining the marks from the icons if they couldn't by default?

Boss Ardnutz wrote:
Any other interpretation renders the "and models in his squad" part of See, But Remain Unseen useless as any squad Shrike joins is just as much a unit as an IC he joins. If an IC he joins doesn't pick up the Infiltrate rule from See, But Remain Unseen, then neither can any other unit he joins.

That is untrue. Independent Characters have a rule all to themselves (which I have pointed out and posted now several times) that says they must be specifically mentioned in a unit's special rule to benefit from it. That is exactly the point of the rule. When you join an IC to a unit he doesn't just automatically get the special rule the unit has unless the rule says it applies to ICs. So yes, any unit joined by Shrike gets the ability because the rule says the unit does, but any further ICs do not suddenly get to ignore this basic restriction of the IC rules.

Unit special rules (and Shrike is a unit) do not get passed onto joined ICs unless the rule specifically mentions that it applies to ICs.

I think in this instance the general rule of IC's only gaining/losing special rules as described in the BRB is overridden by the specific rule for Shrike. Shrike does not have Infiltrate himself, but See, but Remain Unseen grants it to him and models in his squad.

Would this mean that a Deathwing Company Standard would not grant Belial or a Chaplain an extra attack in CC when joined to a unit carrying it? It does not have "including characters" in the rule either.

Homer

Yakface would be correct if Shrike simply had the 'Infiltrate' special rule. However this is not the case.

An IC joined to Shrike does not gain Shrike's special rule. What happens is that Shrike's special rule acts to confer a universal special rule on any model in his squad - which includes any attached ICs.

"When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

In order for Shrike's infiltrate rule to apply to another IC joined to the unit it would have to be written something like this:

"Shrike, models in his squad, including other Independent Characters, benefit from the infiltrate special rule"

I have to agree with Yak. Allowing additional ICs to benefit appears to be incorrect, and AT BEST, would represent erring on the side of the more powerful interpretation for yourself- which is generally something to avoid.

Mannahnin wrote:

"When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

In order for Shrike's infiltrate rule to apply to another IC joined to the unit it would have to be written something like this:

"Shrike, models in his squad, including other Independent Characters, benefit from the infiltrate special rule"

I have to agree with Yak. Allowing additional ICs to benefit appears to be incorrect, and AT BEST, would represent erring on the side of the more powerful interpretation for yourself- which is generally something to avoid.

Uh-huh. Since I exclusively play Orks, I always make sure to infiltrate a unit of Meganobz with Shrike attached.

I'll agree with you and Yakface if you can explain to me why another IC would not be 'a model in Shrike's squad'.

Boss Ardnutz wrote:

Uh-huh. Since I exclusively play Orks, I always make sure to infiltrate a unit of Meganobz with Shrike attached.

I'll agree with you and Yakface if you can explain to me why another IC would not be 'a model in Shrike's squad'.

He IS a model in the unit, but when it comes to an IC the rule must specifically say they benefit from the rule in order for them to do so.

Shrike is a unit. He has a special rule, called "see, but remain unseen" and that special rule gives him, and models in his unit the infiltrate ability.

But as that special rule does not say it applies to other ICs joining the unit, it does not per the IC rule on page 48 of the rulebook.


So yes, Shrike gets infiltrate and yes the rest of the models in his unit get infiltrate, but other ICs joined to the unit aren't just a model in the unit. They are a model in the unit who are also ICs and ICs have a specific exception saying that they do not gain unit rules by joining the unit unless the rule specifies that they do.

I am very sure you are wrong Yakface, both because of the logic of the argument and because i've had multiple redshirts confirm that Shrike makes the whole squad infiltrate, including other ICs attached.

"When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

Shrike does not have infiltrate, and so it is not a situation where this rule applies. The situation is completely different. Shike has See but remain unseen, not a special version of infiltrate that is passed to his squad. You are right that see but remain unseen is NOT passed to other ICs, or even to the regular squad that has been joined by Shrike. But as Ardnutz has said, it is a rule that explicitly grants infiltrate to the entire squad.

The above quoted rule does not apply by RAW because neither the unit or shrike have infiltrate. They all get granted it by See but remain unseen.

So yes it does come down to whether the IC is a unit in Shrike's squad or not, which they clearly are.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:I am very sure you are wrong Yakface, both because of the logic of the argument and because i've had multiple redshirts confirm that Shrike makes the whole squad infiltrate, including other ICs attached.

"When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

Shrike does not have infiltrate, and so it is not a situation where this rule applies. The situation is completely different. Shike has See but remain unseen, not a special version of infiltrate that is passed to his squad. You are right that see but remain unseen is NOT passed to other ICs, or even to the regular squad that has been joined by Shrike. But as Ardnutz has said, it is a rule that explicitly grants infiltrate to the entire squad.

The above quoted rule does not apply by RAW because neither the unit or shrike have infiltrate. They all get granted it by See but remain unseen.

So yes it does come down to whether the IC is a unit in Shrike's squad or not, which they clearly are.

First of all, Redshirts have absolutely no inside information on how the game works. Of this I can absolutely guarantee you, so their interpretation is based simply upon their own opinion.

Second, where in that rule you quoted does it say the exception for ICs gaining a unit's rules only applies to universal special rules? It does not.

'See but remain unseen' is a special rule and what does it do? It grants Shrike and the unit he is with the infiltrate ability. However an IC joining this unit does not gain the benefits of 'see but remain unseen' because the rule does not specify that it also applies to joined ICs.

I'm not exactly sure where you got the idea that the quote above only applies to infiltrate (or other USRs) but it doesn't, it applies to all special rules that a unit has.

Trouble is the other IC does not get 'See But Remain Unseen' conferred upon it. Only Shrike has that rule regardless of who joins him. If a squad of assault marines joins Shrike, his special rule is NOT conferred upon them.

Shrike's special rule stays with him, but the rule itself acts to confer a separate special rule individually on every model that is in his squad.

I can't explain the way I see it any other way, and I can see where Yak is coming from - but I cannot agree that it's correct. As it happens, I'll never field an army containing Shrike and I doubt anyone will object to my allowing them to use the less restrictive interpretation against me, so I'll bow out of the discussion at this point.

Yakface, I think part of the confusion is whether the term "squad" as used in the codex is refering solely to a single "unit" or if the term "squad" is indicative of all models being attached to Shrike.

Similar language (ie the phrase all models in his squad)is used for the Narthecium of the command squad's Apothacary. I could bring up one points why this is a differnet case. One could differentiate the two by noting that the Feel No Pain special ability is derived from a piece of wargear where as See But Remain Unseen is derived from the IC itself. The point being that the quoted rule on pg 48 of the BRB pertains only to special rules derived from units or IC.

On a side note, in looking at the language on page 48 of the BRB:

"Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

There are many ways that GW could specify that a rule applies to attached IC without specifically mentioning the term "Independant Character". For example, they could say "all models attached to Shrike"....or "all Space Marines attached to Shrike"...or "all units attached to Shrike". Any of these terms would effectively specify IC's as a benefactor of an attached units (whether it be IC or non-IC) special abilities given thier inclusive nature.

I feel the same as Ardnutz. It makes perfect sense in my head and i understand what Yak is saying but i am at a loss for how to reasonably explain it.

Great post wyomingfox and great argument. Totally agree with you.

I read the rule in the Space Marine Codex and let me say this.

IC's that have a retinue are part of the squad. Strike should be able to join this squad because IC's in this setup are treated as upgrade characters. ie Vet Seargeant.

Strike however would not give a lone IC the power.

1. Chaplain w/ Command squad could have Strike join them.

2. A Chaplain would not be able to join Stike attached to an assault squad and get the rule. Oh for you smart people if Stike joined an assault squad with a Chaplain attached to it, the Chaplain would not get the infiltrate power.

None of the Marine units are a retinue, so it's not relevant. None of the Marine ICs ever counts as an upgrade character.

But can't 2 ICs join together and become a new super unit? I.E. a unit that only consists of a chaplain with a jumppack and shrike? In this case wouldn't that other character be in "Shrike's Unit"? or did i misread p. 48?

Boss Ardnutz wrote:None of the Marine units are a retinue, so it's not relevant. None of the Marine ICs ever counts as an upgrade character.

Yeah, just read both entries again and you are right, neither honor guard nor command squads are retinues. Strange :S