Epidemius and no retreat

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Warmaster**

So if a squad of say plaguebearers wins combat against someone and the no retreat rule is in effect, do you get to count the additional casualties in the tally if Epidemius is on the table?

**Stelek**

No, you didn't cause the wounds.

Game mechanics did.

Also known as 'neutral' damage.

**JD21290**

its must be a nurgle daemon that causes the wounds rather than combat res.

**utan**

I make the call that they count for the Tally.
"Neutral damage" does not exist in the 40k rulebook, it is a construct of your own.
"No Retreat!" specifies that when such a unit (e.g., Fearless) loses a close combat, they are in danger of being dragged down by the victorious enemy (i.e. the plaguebearers in this case) despite their determination to hang on.
The Plaguebearers dragged them down so add 'em to the tally.

**padixon**

Actually there is a precedence under the Chaos Marines FAQ regarding Lucius the Eternal's armor. It was said that if Lucius loses combat and takes wounds from "No Retreat" the unit that he lost combat too does not take wounds from his crazy armor, since the wounds were not caused by that unit.

So, going by precedence only, then it would not count towards the tally. But you can call this either way until an official FAQ is released covering this really good question.

**Stelek**

That's a lovely concept, but combat resolution (and vehicles being blown up, deep strike mishaps) are indeed neutral damage.

What you've said is indeed a construct of your own, without any rules to back you up.

Neutral damage does exist and has for a very long time.

If it didn't, then anytime you got 20 Orks in a BW surrounded and blew it up with a Nurgle Demon Prince; you'd get 20 free tally?

Yeah, don't think so. The bull

meter screams at that one.

**Mannahnin**

I'd like to see the wording for the Tally rule. The wounds aren't dealt directly by the daemons; they're a bonus. So I'm leery of assuming that they count. The precedent from Lucius' armor seems pretty indicative.

**Stelek**

Tally says wounds caused by models with MoN (friendly or enemy) count towards increasing it.

**JD21290**

Whilst Epidemius is on the table, keep a count of all models killed by followers of nurgle (i.e. any daemon of nurgle, or a model with the mark of nurgle, both friends and enemies) anywhere on the table. At the start of each of your turns, consult the table below to determine the effect of the tally of pestilence. From the beginning of that turn, and as long as Epidemius is on the table, these cumulative bonuses affect all followers of nurgle (friend and foe).

thats the daemon dex entry for it

Edit: im still with stelek on this one.
"Models killed by the followers of nurgle", not by combat resolution.

**sourclams**

Not 100% sure on this one since I don't have my book handy, but I don't believe the Sweeping Advance rule actually references 'wounds'. The unit is simply removed, ala the deepstrike mishap table.

**SlaveToDorkness**

Not Sweeping Advance, Clams, "No Retreat".

**Stelek**

No retreat aren't specifically caused by anyone.

If you have a Slaanesh unit and a Nurgle unit in the combat with Marines, and catch them with Slaanesh (higher I) but not the Nurgle...does the game differentiate to this fine level of detail on who causes the Fearless wounds? Nope.

The game mechanic causes the wounds, your unit triggers the condition for this to happen but does not in fact cause the wounds.

**utan**

The Lucius Armor FAQ ruling does show intent on behalf of the designers. The multiple assault example shows attributing wounds to be troublesome for NO Retreat!

The nay sayers have convinced me. No tally for you!

P.S. You're not likely to take out all 20 orks aboard the battlewagon with an "Explodes!" result. Maybe 5 of them.

**Saldiven**

You might if the entire battlewagon were surrounded by non-ork models....

**Stelek**

That was indeed the concept...

**SlaveToDorkness**

Actually, depending on the size of the BWagon, an "Explodes" result allows them to be placed in the crater where the vehicle was. So surrounding it wouldn't auto-killl them if the BWagon was big enough to leave a large enough space.

A "Wrecked" result would kill them all though.

**dancingcricket**

Pretty sure it's not able to be added to the tally. Otherwise, what weapon you're using to hit the target with would matter, so your S10 dread CC weapon wouldn't allow terminators to take their 2+ armor saves. When No Retreat models are subject to the powerweapons of the unit they're 'not retreating' from, then you can add the ones who fail to the tally.

**Stelek**

Nurgleboy77 wrote:Actually, depending on the size of the BWagon, an "Explodes" result allows them to be placed in the crater where the vehicle was. So surrounding it wouldn't auto-killl them if the BWagon was big enough to leave a large enough space.

A "Wrecked" result would kill them all though.

Quote them rules, boyo. Quote 'em.

**Stelek**

dancingcricket wrote:When No Retreat models are subject to the powerweapons of the unit they're 'not retreating' from, then you can add the ones who fail to the tally.

Wha...what?

**sourclams**

He's saying that when a unit with lots of power weapons force a No Retreat! situation on a heavily armored unit, like Terminators, it's not fair that the Terminators can take 2+ armor saves versus all of the No Retreat! wounds because arguably his victorious unit would be using their power weapons to drag down and massacre their prey.

Yeah, I know.

**SlaveToDorkness**

Stelek wrote:
Quote them rules, boyo. Quote 'em.

Read them rules, boyo.

BGB, pg 67, rt column, "Destroyed-Wrecked"

The passengers must immediatly dissembark and take a pinning check. Any models that cannot disembark are destroyed. After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck

Destroyed- Explodes

The surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be and then take a pinning check.

So if the BWagon is big enough to allow all the Orks in the hole left by the wreckage, without being within 1" of enemies, they are perfectly fine.

**JD21290**

so, in theory, if you surround a wagon full of 20 boyz and destroy it they are classed as destroyed as they couldnt all fit in the wreckage and atleast 1" away from an enemy model?
i like this

**Stelek**

And if you don't HAVE a BW sized crater?

You forgot a rule.

Go find it.

**whitedragon**

The emergency disembarkation rule makes it so that it is very difficult to destroy models inside a wrecked transport.

**Stelek**

Very difficult?

Compared to 3rd and 4th, more difficult.

But very?

Depends entirely on what you have available.

Some armies, it's really really easy to pile in around a vehicle.

You can effectively 'trap' many units by pinning them inside their vehicle, assaulting so they can't get out, then blowing them up on your next turn.

All you need is a vehicle in front of his, and you are good to go.

**Boss Ardnutz**

Stelek can you explain what rule Nurgleboy77 is missing? As far as I can see he's right.

I don't particularly like this rule, since it should be worse for the passengers to have their transport explode around them, but it does seem to be the rule. Particularly nasty if you've got something like Assault Terminators plus a Chaplain in a Land Raider and you are unlucky enough to blow it up.... next turn you can say goodbye to the units you used to kill the Land Raider.

I'd love to learn that this isn't how it works....

**dancingcricket**

Can models inside a destroyed or exploded vehicle that is surrounded emergency disembark to stand on top of the vehicle or in the crater, respectively, (assuming few enough models to fit on top/in crater and maintain 1" of space to surrounding units?)

**SlaveToDorkness**

IF the vehicle "Explodes" they can, not if it's just "Wrecked".

Unless Stelek showers us with his wisdom. lol

**Mausama**

To throw my little 2 cents, I believe the wounds are caused by the winning unit; so would count towards the tally.. The last paragraph on that page states...

PG 44. on the small book (only one I have with me at work):
"If none of the enemies involved in the combat against a fearless unit can actually hurt it, the unit does not suffer any wounds if its side is defeated in combat, and simply continues to fight."

If it was "neutral" damage... the winners "STR" would not be a factor..

Mausama

**padixon**

Mausama, I see what you are saying. But, that is also another game 'mechanic' that was added to place a little 'realism' in this game.

It was brought into 5e because it simply made sense.

Like I said earlier, there is a precedence in the C:CSM FAQ regarding Lucius's armor. In which GW themsleves classify fearless wounds as wounds NOT caused by the winning unit

C:CSM FAQ Quote: "...'No Retreat' wounds are not directly caused by any particular enemy unit."

Anyways, play it however you guys want too. GW has already made a ruling in the FAQ regarding this subject.

Edit: You RAW Nazis out there may argue the line 'any particular enemy unit' does not specifically say that a unit in your army did not cause the wounds, it just points out that it wasn't a specific one. But this is an insane reading at best and only leads to some very weird mind warping around this line.