Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I'm at a tourney last weekend and have an Ork Dred in CC with some demons. There's a nice big piece of terrain to the left of my Dred and demons filling all but about an inch of the frontage on my Dred's base.

My opponent moves his Soul Grinder up and squeezes the tip of the model's leg into the crack. The entire front of the model is reaching OVER the demons in B2B. "I'm assaulting you" he declares. Seems to me to be a rules loophole at best and modeling abuse at worse. Not that I blame my opponent... he was a likeable enough fellow. I blame GW.

Normally with based models there's no way he can get into B2B in this circumstance. Another Dred, Avatar, Demon Prince, etc. could never have made that assault. How would you guys play it? Should it be allowed?

Rough, but probably allowable. Just a characteristic difficulty of an absolutely enormous assault model with no base.

I believe you would have to be able to move the hull of the defiler into base contact to be able to declare an assault.

G

Have you ever tried to move a Defiler into CC? It's not that easy. Bu what Git describes seems like a good reason to put Defilers and Soulgrinder on bases.

This is why it's a shame GW made the Defiler so stupidly big and hard to base. If the Defiler model were about 25% smaller, that'd be great, because it'd be more easily baseable, but it's not.

So what you're stuck with is a huge model that isn't well-handled by the rules. If he's using the legs as "Hull", then that's fine, as long as he let you shoot at the legs, too.

If he's working based on torso = hull, then the situation is messier.

Did he have the movement distance for the hull to reach HtH, assuming that there would have been space?

Anyhow, the thing is, figure out how big the Defiler / SG is from a gaming stand point, and be consistent.

Distance wise the Soul Grinder was probably close enough... the thing that irked me was that by sticking the tip of one leg into a space too small for a 40mm or larger base to fit into the SG was claimed to have made B2B and assault.

We did compromise and force the Soul Grinder into the terrain to make base contact forcing a difficult terrain test which it passed. That I was OK with, but if I'm playing a game where say a handful of Terminators or some other squad has the Dred surrounded and a inch wide frontage is used to push a Soul Grinder up into assault... someone is getting Dred Socked.

Honestly I think you were hood winked. What we really need is a new entry in the Chaos codex for a mid sized defiler that will be easy to fit on a base. The conversion opportunities would be too good to pass up for the fluffier hobbyists.

G

unfortunately, you just got caught at the intersection of Awkward Walker CC Lane and GW Sculpters Being Creative Boulevard.

As crappy as it sounds, that situation also sounds legal. The unbased walker rules are rather mediocre, so any part of it's model counts for making base contact. And since it was his own models he was shimmying between, he's allowed to make base contact with them, so he can do it.

Just another anomaly of the ruleset. Be sure you're checking range for shots and assaults to those spindly front legs, pretty much evens things out. Life gets REALLY obnoxious when you try and draw LOS through these big buggers.

p.72 wrote:
If a walker does not have a base (like the Chaos Defiler), measure to and from its hull (including its legs and other limbs), as normal for vehicles. Firing the walker’s own weapons is an exception to this, as explained later on this page.

I'd say he was within his rights to assault since he could get his hull (aka the legs) into base contact. As The Defenestrator points out this evens up since you can do it to him when shooting at the Defiler or assaulting it. The exception mentioned in the rules is that like any other vehicle, the Defiler measures ranges from its weapon when it is shooting.

the funniest thing is watching a Soul Grinder try and use his heavy flamer! Since his front legs cannot be within 1" of the enemy until the assault phase, and the flamer template has to originate from the mouth, it has a range of like 3"

This is why I modify all my soul grinders and defilers to have jointed legs.

And honestly, I think it's a fine ruling - the whole point of walkers is that they can shimmy into weird positions and situations.

You guys have got to be kidding me!

The hull is the base. Also there is no leaving holes in the bases. ie. 6 guys attack 1 guy and then consolidate to touch b2b means no holes open.

You were nice letting him asault you. The model has a base and it is the hull.

I fixed this problem with mine. I made a base for it so there are no arguements about where the base is. Cowards pull crap like this so make them prove to you where the base is and for vehicles it's the hull and not a leg.

I was always under the impression that for a walker, the legs were considered part of the hull.

I guess my question is: Can an opponent legally position his models underneath his skimmer (assuming it has a high enough base stand? If not, I don't think he could do the same with a baseless walker.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:You guys have got to be kidding me!

The hull is the base. Also there is no leaving holes in the bases. ie. 6 guys attack 1 guy and then consolidate to touch b2b means no holes open.

You were nice letting him asault you. The model has a base and it is the hull.

I fixed this problem with mine. I made a base for it so there are no arguements about where the base is. Cowards pull crap like this so make them prove to you where the base is and for vehicles it's the hull and not a leg.

All wrong. The legs and other limbs are part of the hull for walkers without a base. Read the bit I quoted from p.72 of the rulebook if you don't believe me.

As far as making bases for your own walkers is concerned, you're welcome to do it, but remember you have to get your opponent's permission to field the modified model. See the rulebook p.3 for details.

At the end of the day it's a game of toy soldiers and calling someone a 'coward' just because they understand the rules and you don't is taking things way too seriously.

wyomingfox wrote:I guess my question is: Can an opponent legally position his models underneath his skimmer (assuming it has a high enough base stand? If not, I don't think he could do the same with a baseless walker.

The skimmer rules state that a skimmer cannot end its move over enemy or friendly models. There isn't a corresponding rule as far as I can see to say that you cannot move friendly models underneath a skimmer. However given the skimmer rule I think there is a clear enough implied rule that you may not move friendly models underneath your skimmer, just as you may not end a skimmer's move over the friendly models.

Equally, although there's no specific prohibition, putting infantry models underneath the legs or hull of a Grinder or Defiler seems to be against the spirit of the movement rules. However if there is enough of a gap between friendly models to slide the walker's leg through then it can move there. I'd be totally comfortable with someone doing that to me as long as looking straight down on the Grinder/Defiler, none of the smaller daemons ended up being obscured by the body or legs. If the smaller daemons were obscured by the body of the Grinder/Defiler, but weren't actually touching it, that'd be a grey area and we could probably agree to dice off for it or something like that.

Boss Ardnutz wrote:If a walker does not have a base (like the Chaos Defiler), ... [rulebook, p.72]

That is awesome. GW wrote a rule just for the Defiler / Soul Grinder.

I guess it would also hold for things like Titans and Revenants, unless they are separately covered by the Apocalypse rules? I can't comment further on that because I don't have a copy of those rules.

Since I can shoot the Soul Grinder, or any model for that matter, by hitting only a leg, why can't it get into combat by just hitting you with it's leg?

I would, however, argue back that if the leg has to pass over other models to get into the combat that it is no go. The model, or whatever appendage gets it into contact, must fit between the models already in combat. I also would not let you extend a claw and rotate it sideways to minimize it's width to fit either.

Homer

Because many people (at least everyone I have ever played that used a defiler or SG) contend that the legs don't count for shooting as they are not part of the hull.

Therefore, squeezing a single leg into btb should not be considered a successful charge.

Homer S wrote:Since I can shoot the Soul Grinder, or any model for that matter, by hitting only a leg, why can't it get into combat by just hitting you with it's leg?

Rest assured from every game forward now, if I can touch the tip of a Defiler's or Soul Grinder's toe it's fair game for shooting. Let the Lootas rejoice.

Homer S wrote:

I would, however, argue back that if the leg has to pass over other models to get into the combat that it is no go. The model, or whatever appendage gets it into contact, must fit between the models already in combat. I also would not let you extend a claw and rotate it sideways to minimize it's width to fit either.

And therein lies the majority of the problem with the way said opponent did things. When he push the toe of the Soul Grinder into base the entire rest of the model was reaching over HIS models that were in B2B with me. He was attempting to avoid a difficult terrain test by not moving over said terrain but instead squeezing into the bare inch showing.

A Defiler / Soul Grinder is a ridonkulously huge model and easily towers over ordinary infantry. I have no problem imagining it able to attack over CSM infantry.

JohnHwangDD wrote:A Defiler / Soul Grinder is a ridonkulously huge model and easily towers over ordinary infantry. I have no problem imagining it able to attack over CSM infantry.

And my Dred towers over my Grots, but I still can't charge into CC with something they are fighting if the bases can't touch. Regardless of what you might suppose, this is a rules based game and the rules should be consistent if nothing else. In this example my Dred is at an immediate disadvantage because it is on a base and the Defiler/Soul Grinder is not thus the rules are inconsistent.

JohnHwangDD wrote:A Defiler / Soul Grinder is a ridonkulously huge model and easily towers over ordinary infantry. I have no problem imagining it able to attack over CSM infantry.

And smack the CSMs in the process..err I meant ON PURPOSE

Ahem. Your Dread is based...

Nevermind!

The Green Git wrote:

Homer S wrote:
I would, however, argue back that if the leg has to pass over other models to get into the combat that it is no go. The model, or whatever appendage gets it into contact, must fit between the models already in combat. I also would not let you extend a claw and rotate it sideways to minimize it's width to fit either.

And therein lies the majority of the problem with the way said opponent did things. When he push the toe of the Soul Grinder into base the entire rest of the model was reaching over HIS models that were in B2B with me. He was attempting to avoid a difficult terrain test by not moving over said terrain but instead squeezing into the bare inch showing.

I'm not sure what you are saying. If he had the joints glued stiff, and the model was physically large enough to get into contact with your model while looming over some of his own models (or even some of your own, for that matter), I'm not sure that's really foul play. If he didn't glue the joints, and he shifted the leg forward to fit into the gap, that would probably be a foul. But I don't think the rules cover moving parts on models...

I'm sure that the rules prohibited moving through the space occupied by models, and in the case of vehicles that includes the hull. Other models are impassible terrain, but if the terrain is small enough to move over without any of the model ever physically touching that terrain, does the terrain have any effect?

Anyone who has ever played someone that has a defiler argues where the hull is so they have an advantage. I don't care what page pg 72 says. I believe in the front of the book it says the main rule is to have fun. This doesn't mean just one person.

Sure the defiler is a walker. Sure it doesn't come with a base. We all have a brain and know where the hull is on a defiler. So legs are not enough to be in H2H.

To make this point more clear I'll meet you half way on this.

I'll promise not to target the tip of your leg that is all I see for you not to try to abuse a rule on pg 72. See now we both can have fun.

As for RTT's and other events. I'd ask before you start the game. You can adjust your sportsmanship score on the guys response.

I'm fairly certain that the only unit types that can pass over other models are jetbikes and skimmers. Even if they are modeled that way. Otherwise, they must be able to fit between the intervening models' bases.

Page 72, under Measuring Range, clearly states that legs and other limbs are part of the hull.

If the limbs did not count for CC, you could model your Defiler/Soul Grinder with just less than 1" between each leg. No one could ever reach your hull for CC. The reverse would also apply but I'm certain with Dreadnought CCW's and lots of attacks, that is not the intent of the rules.

Homer

I'm not sure what you are saying. If he had the joints glued stiff, and the model was physically large enough to get into contact with your model while looming over some of his own models (or even some of your own, for that matter), I'm not sure that's really foul play.

Actually it is, for just the reason you answered below:

I'm sure that the rules prohibited moving through the space occupied by models, and in the case of vehicles that includes the hull. Other models are impassible terrain, but if the terrain is small enough to move over without any of the model ever physically touching that terrain, does the terrain have any effect?

Seeing as the defiler lacks a base, if a portion of the walkers hull, which includes its legs, had to hover over or extend over any portion of the area terrain during its movement, then yeah, the walker would have to make a difficult terrain test.

Let me ask this. Do bases come in any shape other than round for 40K?

So if the legs are the base do they outline the legs or are they a round base. For a simple example retend you put a rubber band around the legs and that would equal your base. Now can you get that into a gap?

No would be your answer.

Again. Talk to people before the game and go with whatever they want. Adjust the sportsmanship in a tourny.