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I dont have the codex by me right now so I cant look this up at the moment,

but if you upgrade the Sternguard to all carry the Storm Bolters, do they still get all of their special rounds?

or do you only get the special rounds when using the boltgun.

All Bolt Weapons get the special upgrade - meaning Bolt Pistols, Storm Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Combi Weapons...etc. In fact, if you mount the Sternguard in a Land Raider Crusader, even the Hurricane Bolters get the effect! Check page. 57 for the rules!

No, seriously, YMDC is for rules discussion, not a replacement codex when your idle at work/school. Can't you wait ~8 hours and check yourself?

Zoned

In that case Zoned, does an IC that joined the Sternguard get the special ammunition? RAW says yes, Common Sense says give him the finger.

Sorry, don't have my codex on me but I'll reply tomorrow after reading the entry again.

Zoned

Breton wrote:In that case Zoned, does an IC that joined the Sternguard get the special ammunition? RAW says yes, Common Sense says give him the finger.

an IC joining a unit will never benifit or gain any of their special rules unless it is explicitly stated they do. so no, and IC would not.

The "answers" provided here are nonsense. The rules say boltguns and combi bolters, not anything else.

That's the point Biz. The guy was asking for rules, as opposed to discussing or clarifying them, so he got a sarcastic answer from Zoned and told to buy the book already.

And that's incorrect Regwon. An IC joining a Tank Hunters unit will automatically pass Tank Shock morale checks even though he's not a tank hunter. An IC will only NOT gain those special rules marked with an asterisk.

Although I do agree a Librarian joining a sternguard squad doesn't get the special ammunition, and beyond that Cassius, or any IC with Hellfire Rounds wouldn't then force the Sternguard squad to fire only Hellfire Rounds.

Breton wrote:And that's incorrect Regwon. An IC joining a Tank Hunters unit will automatically pass Tank Shock morale checks even though he's not a tank hunter. An IC will only NOT gain those special rules marked with an asterisk.

Although I do agree a Librarian joining a sternguard squad doesn't get the special ammunition, and beyond that Cassius, or any IC with Hellfire Rounds wouldn't then force the Sternguard squad to fire only Hellfire Rounds.

You might want to reference this thread as they are currently haggling over a similar situation:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/221339.page

Specifically check out the point where Yakface joins in the discussion about 1/2 through the page an quotes the following from the BRB:

"When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

Zoned wrote:All Bolt Weapons get the special upgrade - meaning Bolt Pistols, Storm Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Combi Weapons...etc. In fact, if you mount the Sternguard in a Land Raider Crusader, even the Hurricane Bolters get the effect! Check page. 57 for the rules!

No, seriously, YMDC is for rules discussion, not a replacement codex when your idle at work/school. Can't you wait ~8 hours and check yourself?

Zoned

Breton wrote:That's the point Biz. The guy was asking for rules, as opposed to discussing or clarifying them, so he got a sarcastic answer from Zoned and told to buy the book already.

actually I would have asked the same question even if I was at home. because this does need clarification.

on the Sternguard fluff page it says:
"each boltgun armed Sterngaurd gets the special ammunition, and that each special round replaces the boltgun profile."
and all the special rounds have rapid fire in their profile, while the storm bolter is assault.

so if you take the storm bolter upgrade, can you still use the special rounds, and if so are they still rapid fire, or are they assault 2 since you are using the storm bolter.

Edit, sorry, mistaken shutdown of thread. Please continue guys.

And bump to get it going
topic:but if you upgrade the Sternguard to all carry the Storm Bolters, do they still get all of their special rounds?

or do you only get the special rounds when using the boltgun.

They have their special rounds, but can only use them in a boltgun... as a storm bolter is not a boltgun- oops. Strange as it sounds, yeah I'd never give a Sternguard a Stormbolter the way they're set up now.

If the special ammo rule applied to Storm Bolters, I'd probably make a unit with em all carrying Storm Bolters, but no, they lose their best rules when they take em, so it's a stupid stupid "upgrade".

dashrendar wrote:
on the Sternguard fluff page it says:
"each boltgun armed Sterngaurd gets the special ammunition, and that each special round replaces the boltgun profile."
and all the special rounds have rapid fire in their profile, while the storm bolter is assault.

I agree that only bolters and combi-bolters may use this special ammunition. Even if you gave him a storm bolter, each shot has it's own profile which would override the stormbolter. This would make the stormbolter completely superfluous unless you fired regular bolter rounds, which I can't imagine anyone ever doing with sternguard.

Since combi-bolters are bolters except in the shooting phases in which you use their combi-shot, I still believe the best sternguard you can have are full of combi-meltas, and maybe combi-flamers if you catch someone in a huge bunch.

I'm with the thought that Sternguard only use their special ammo in Boltguns. Storm Bolters, Bolt Pistols, etc are not Boltguns.

Heh, I wonder why marines wouldnt put that amo in ALL their guns?

Sorry drive on.

it says that the ammo type replaces the profile for the boltgun.... this seems to tell me that it's fired from a boltgun.
if you upgrade to a stormbolter you no longer have a boltgun profile to replace... i think you need the boltgun...

Weapons that can utilize sternguard ammo:

Boltguns
Combi Boltguns

Weapons that cannot utilize sternguard ammo:

Everything else.

Yes, even that.

Breton wrote:In that case Zoned, does an IC that joined the Sternguard get the special ammunition? RAW says yes, Common Sense says give him the finger.

If this is true it just goes to show that RAW is not the end all be all when it comes to deciding how to interpret the rules.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:

Breton wrote:In that case Zoned, does an IC that joined the Sternguard get the special ammunition? RAW says yes, Common Sense says give him the finger.

If this is true it just goes to show that RAW is not the end all be all when it comes to deciding how to interpret the rules.

G

It's not true, if you read more of the thread you would understand they were both being preposterous. Sternguard's special ammunition isn't a rule, it is a piece of wargear that the squad has, there is no way anyone other than a sternguard squad member could obtain it at this point in time.

I too have been trying to make a case for using the special AMMO in storm bolters. Though not for any abusive purpose. I feel that there is a case for RAI and RAW, and I will include reasons for both.

RAI - Storm Bolters for Sternguard are at +5 pts. making them 30 points a piece. If they lose the ability to fire the AMMO, then I believe it is a terrible option you should never use.

If I wanted storm bolter armed marines, I can go with allied grey knights that are only 25 pts., come with a STR 6 CCW, WS 5, and have all the other grey knight coolness, in addition to the fact that they are a Troops choice without the need for Pedro. Granted they cannot have a drop pod, but still.

I feel it's very clear that IF the AMMO were allowed through the storm bolters, the AMMO would not be assault 2, but would use their rapid fire profile as described. Upgrading to storm bolters would perhaps allow a fifth AMMO option, if you will.

There is also a weak precident set by Captain Lysander: Under Bolter drill it specifically mentions (Boltguns, Combi weapons, Storm Bolters, and bolt pistols). I totally grant that those weapons are mentioned specifically, but I'm in the RAI section of my argument.

RAW - 1. The Sternguard AMMO says that it can be fired through any Boltgun armed weapon.
2. In the Wargear section under Boltgun, it says roughly "A Boltgun, or Bolter....." implying that the term Boltgun and Bolter are
equal and interchangable rulewise.
3. Therefore, Storm Bolter is equal in game terms to a Storm Boltgun by statement 2, and can use the AMMO by statement 1

I totally agree that I'm reaching here, but it's the only way I can think of to make the option of the Storm Bolter make any sense for Sternguard.

Please feel free to ridicule my logic, but I hope my intent to make an honest justification comes through.

Ultramar Custodian wrote:There is also a weak precident set by Captain Lysander: Under Bolter drill it specifically mentions (Boltguns, Combi weapons, Storm Bolters, and bolt pistols). I totally grant that those weapons are mentioned specifically, but I'm in the RAI section of my argument.

Yeah, but there's also a precedent for them being quite specific regarding special rules applied to bolter weapons and what they actually cover, while the sternguard rules only specifically say they work with boltguns and combi bolters.

That's not to say I disagree with you, if I was playing against someone who had stormbolter armed sternguard I would let them use the special ammunition with the exact listed profiles for those rounds, but I just feel it's hard to argue RAI for it.

In the equipment section it states. hellfire rounds these are specially modified bolter rounds, originally designed for slaying tyranid bio-monstrosities. Each hellfire round replaces the bolt's standard explosive charge with a chamber of bio-acid that eats through flesh with a voraciousness impossible to survive. if a model carries hellfire rounds, replace their boltguns profile (including a boltgun on a space marine bike) with the following profile.
range str ap type
24" x 5 rapid fire
poisoned (2+)
note that hellfire rounds can only be used in a boltgun


is a combi-bolter a bolter and a extra one shot weapon or something else ?


cassius has one with hellfire rounds

combi-weapons are bolter with a bit stuck on ... its just GW making cool rules and then for getting to check through ... but IMHO the FAQ will let storm bolters fire as normal but replacing rapid fire with assault 2 ... just my 2c

slightly off topic ...
I wonder why you can't upgrade an iron clad dred to have the Sternguard special amuniton would make the Hurricane Bolters a choice ... and hell i've seen enough Sternguard getting slaughtered to make an army of dreads

Drunkspleen wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:

Breton wrote:In that case Zoned, does an IC that joined the Sternguard get the special ammunition? RAW says yes, Common Sense says give him the finger.

If this is true it just goes to show that RAW is not the end all be all when it comes to deciding how to interpret the rules.

G

It's not true, if you read more of the thread you would understand they were both being preposterous. Sternguard's special ammunition isn't a rule, it is a piece of wargear that the squad has, there is no way anyone other than a sternguard squad member could obtain it at this point in time.

May I add that it wouldn't matter if the special bolter rounds were a unit special rule as a unit's special rule doesn't apply to an attached IC unless it specifically states it does:

From the BRB: "When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

No where does it mention that IC joined to a stearnguard unit benefit from the bolter upgraded ammor; therefore the language above prohibits this.

However it also says All Models In The Squad must use the same ammunition type. Its weak, I wouldn't do it, but there's an arguement.

Basically if someone told me because Cassius/someone was in the squad and they had regular/hellfire rounds, that's all the squad could fire, I'd respond with the special ammo replaces all the boltgun profiles.

As for Stormbolters/pistols... Can they Assault 2/Pistol 1 the special ammo? No. Should they be able to X" Assault 2/Pistol1 the special ammo? Yeah, they should. There's never been, to the best of my knowledge, a fluff differentiation between boltgun rounds, bolt pistol rounds, and storm bolter rounds. And given that a stormbolter is almost double the cost for other units able to take stormbolters, it doesn't seem that over the top.

sonofruss wrote:In the equipment section it states. hellfire rounds ...note that hellfire rounds can only be used in a boltgun

Uh isn't everyone forgetting that the scout heavy bolter has got hellfire rounds too right? Doesn't that mean that special amo comes in all flavors for bolters: bolt pistols, bolters storm bolter and heavy bolter too?

?

Scout Heavy Bolters have Hellfire Shells. Different beast. Hellfire Shells have been around since 2nd Edition... small blast template... Hellfire Rounds are a ripoff/adjustment from them.

Yea sure, besides the rules in the dex would have to specify it for each unit anyway...

I guess I dont think anything but bolters should fire the combi shelss, I was just saying there are other hellfire rounds, but its just fluff so who cares.

There are other Hellfire Rounds. Captains and Masters can take them. Cassius has them. Hellfire Shells are different than Hellfire Rounds. Different End Results fired from a Different Weapon.