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FOR THIS POLL, PLEASE ANSWER HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THE RULES AS WRITTEN (RAW) SAY.



The Eldar Harlequin Veil of Tears rules say (Eldar codex, pg 49): "Any unit wishing to target the Shadowseer or the unit she is with must roll 2D6x2. This is their spotting distance in inches. If the models are not within spotting range, they may not fire that turn. The Shadowseer and her unit can always be ignored by the enemy for the purpose of determining target priority."


The Tau Stealth Field Generator rules say (Tau Empire codex, pg 27): "Enemy models attempting to fire at a unit wholly equipped with stealth field generators must roll to check their spotting distance by rolling 2D6x3 as if firing at night. If the models are not within spotting range, the firer may not choose to fire at a different target. The firing unit may, however, choose to ignore models equipped with stealth field generators and fire on a more distant target, and in this case will not be required to take a Target Piority test if this target is the next closest."


The Cover rules say (rulebook, pg 22): "Firing through units or area terrain: If a model fires through the. . .gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer."



QUESTION: If a unit is firing through an enemy unit that must be 'spotted' by being rolled for, such as with Tau Stealth Suits or Eldar Harlequins with a Shadowseer (including in a situation where it is clear that there is no possible way this unit is within 'spotting' distance), do these types of units still constitute an 'intervening unit' and provide a cover save to other units being shot at through them?



OPTION A. Absolutely, a cover save is granted. The reference to a target priority test is no longer valid in the current rules and by the RAW an intervening unit is an intervening unit even if it is impossible to actually target that intervening unit.


OPTION B. No, they don't grant a cover save. I believe it is an oversight from the previous edition of the rules to the current one; units who could be ignored for target priority in the last version of the rules can be ignored for intervening cover saves in the current version of the rules and that's how I play it.


OPTION C. Something else entirely: reply exactly what it is below.

I put option 'B' but not for the reason listed.

Normally, when you fire through an intervening unit, the target recieves a cover save because the intervening unit is making it difficult to see the target.

If you can't see the intervening unit, your targetting would not be affected in this way.


N.B. If the cover rules were such that the intervening unit could be accidentally hit by the incoming fire, I would play it this way even with veiled/stealthed units - given that they are still physically in the way even if you can't see them.

A.

It makes sense. I can imagine VoT targets flickering into view and then invisible, disorientating the shooters.

A.

Veil of tears describes itself as confusing and terrifying enemies.

stealth field generators describe themselves as projecting "a distortion effect that makes [the battlesuit] extremely hard to target"

I would consider both of these special rules to have the potential to make it difficult to target not only the primary unit, but other things behind them.

A.

Intervening units are intervening units.
You're not targeting the VoT harlies or the stealth suits, but are firing beyond them to a more distant target, but they are still in your LOS.

Hi

I think B, with a bit of C, as Codex beats rulebook, unless it is FAQ'd otherwise. The target priority test is just a leadership test. It has never come up in a game for me so far but in a dispute I would be happy to take a leadership test or to ask that a leadership test be taken, so then it would be fair. Cover saves are an unfair advantage in this case, and if there is a dispute then a leadership test takes no time at all.

deathwatchac wrote:Hi

I think B, with a bit of C, as Codex beats rulebook, unless it is FAQ'd otherwise. The target priority test is just a leadership test. It has never come up in a game for me so far but in a dispute I would be happy to take a leadership test or to ask that a leadership test be taken, so then it would be fair. Cover saves are an unfair advantage in this case, and if there is a dispute then a leadership test takes no time at all.

You do realize this is 5th edition and there are no Target Priority tests anymore. Your whole reason is based on an non-existent rule.


I personally would Consider it to be A. The fluff is a part of this reasoning, and that all LOS drawn through another unit grants the target a cover save.

'A' is the one that makes the most sense.

A.
1) RAW
2) KISS rule works best
3) As noted, there is fluff to support it. Its a similar situation fluffwise to someone shooting unit B through a unit of infiltrators. The inifiltrator minis are there, but fluffwise-they aren't visible-they are in hiding.

A- the units with VoT and stealth are not invisible just harder to target so the firers can see them...
Mick

A is my choice.

To me, it has a rules and fluff reasoning. Firstly, the models are still there and must be fired through, even if you have the option to ignore them.

Secondly, even if you can't see them, they're still there to provide cover.

(Though, that leads me to the inescapable question that if one group of models is providing a cover save to another, what happens to the hits that are ignored because of cover? Do they just magically disappear somehow? Why don't they affect the intervening unit?)

A.

I can't target terrain, but it still gives Cover Saves to units behind them.

A, for reasons already listed above.

Voted before reading everyones' posts. Looks like A is in the solid majority.

InquisitorFabius wrote:
You do realize this is 5th edition and there are no Target Priority tests anymore. Your whole reason is based on an non-existent rule.


I personally would Consider it to be A. The fluff is a part of this reasoning, and that all LOS drawn through another unit grants the target a cover save.

Thanks for reminding me what version of the game we are in. I think my whole reasoning is based on the fact that the codexes are for previous versions of the rules and until there is an up to date codex or a FAQ/Errata then the codex must stand, otherwise the whole foundation of the rules becomes unstable. The rules in the codex are quite clear and say that the stealth/invisible/shrouded/whatever units can be ignored for shooting purposes.

If they aren't then you have just entered a whole world of stealth spam. Run a line of minimum sized stealth units which can't be shot providing 4+ cover saves to maxed out assault units all the way across the table to the centre of your lines. Do you really think this is the effect they should have on the game and is that fair do you think?

It has nothing to do with fluff, this is a game, and if to make it fair, you need to roll a couple of dice for a rule that was valid in the old codex and isn't in the BRB, then I don't see how thats a big problem. If you want to let them provide coversaves then your games are going to get a lot shorter

If you're suggesting that people take minimum-sized units of expensive Harlequins to provide 4+ cover saves for maxed-out Guardian Storms, I need to wonder just how effective you think that's going to be.

The only army it'd be even close to viable for is Tau, and even then putting your stealth suits between the gunline that your opponent is going to be running straight for completely wastes their main mobility advantage.

A
I like to believe that many weapons in the 41st millenium have to be 'zeroed' or focussed on their target to have maximum impact: the point where the laser is most coherent etc etc. Thus if you're trying to shoot through a unit, your shots may hit their armor, but aren't at a power level sufficient to damage.

Also i like to think of stealth not as invisibility but as a distortion - a hazy area which makes it difficult to target stuff on the other side.

And its not exactly like 2D6x3 is impossible to target - an average of 21". Last game i played nightfighting every single unit rolled over their weapon range for spotting.