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 Therion wrote:
There’s a very real way to taking down Knights.

If they play Raven, and you get 1a, you Vect the Rotate Ion Shield. Seer Council and the re-rolls make Doom and Jinx reliable. That’s a step the Knight can avoid with better deployment, but the spells aren’t mandatory for the Eldar opener.

Against Taranis, you need to let them Rotate, and you just blast through it and Vect the Darkest Hour.

The list I used recently at a major tournament does 36,6 wounds to T8 5++ without Doom and Jinx from the vehicles and flyers. Sufficient to say, even to 4++ it’s enough for a one shot. If you get the spells off, there’s a realistic chance the first Knight pops before the Prisms even Link, so they get to put their 12 wounds of damage against a second Knight.

Gallants are just target dummies because they can be boxed in with flyers and blocked from moving. If Gallants get 1a you need to Vect the Full Tilt. The always taken BA Captains don’t really change anything, except that you need to keep moving and outranging the 24” threat range, and Vecting the Upon Wings of Fire every turn.

In short, Vect and the 6+/6+ refund, flyers and Prisms are an answer to everything.

I hope this helps anyone who is struggling in the matchup.

This isn’t to say there doesn’t exist a chain of events that will lead to an Eldar loss, but it’s most certainly Eldar favored matchup. The BA+Custo+Astra soup is the easiest, then comes the Crusaders/Gallants+BA+Astra and lastly the Castellan+BA+Astra as the most tricky one if you get a long deployment (range will be an issue so you need to wreck the infantry and BA first and leave the Knight for later.

EDIT:

To the above poster, regarding targeting: By rulebook RAW it's correct you only nominate targets, you don't designate weapons, but wherever the ETC FAQ is in effect you need to nominate at least one weapon per target when you're declaring targets. This makes Lightning-Fast Reactions and Rotate Ion Shields easy to use (you pop defensives wherever the biggest enemy gun is going).

You make it sound easy... Got any proof of that?

FarseerReborn wrote:

 Therion wrote:
There’s a very real way to taking down Knights.

If they play Raven, and you get 1a, you Vect the Rotate Ion Shield. Seer Council and the re-rolls make Doom and Jinx reliable. That’s a step the Knight can avoid with better deployment, but the spells aren’t mandatory for the Eldar opener.

Against Taranis, you need to let them Rotate, and you just blast through it and Vect the Darkest Hour.

The list I used recently at a major tournament does 36,6 wounds to T8 5++ without Doom and Jinx from the vehicles and flyers. Sufficient to say, even to 4++ it’s enough for a one shot. If you get the spells off, there’s a realistic chance the first Knight pops before the Prisms even Link, so they get to put their 12 wounds of damage against a second Knight.

Gallants are just target dummies because they can be boxed in with flyers and blocked from moving. If Gallants get 1a you need to Vect the Full Tilt. The always taken BA Captains don’t really change anything, except that you need to keep moving and outranging the 24” threat range, and Vecting the Upon Wings of Fire every turn.

In short, Vect and the 6+/6+ refund, flyers and Prisms are an answer to everything.

I hope this helps anyone who is struggling in the matchup.

This isn’t to say there doesn’t exist a chain of events that will lead to an Eldar loss, but it’s most certainly Eldar favored matchup. The BA+Custo+Astra soup is the easiest, then comes the Crusaders/Gallants+BA+Astra and lastly the Castellan+BA+Astra as the most tricky one if you get a long deployment (range will be an issue so you need to wreck the infantry and BA first and leave the Knight for later.

EDIT:

To the above poster, regarding targeting: By rulebook RAW it's correct you only nominate targets, you don't designate weapons, but wherever the ETC FAQ is in effect you need to nominate at least one weapon per target when you're declaring targets. This makes Lightning-Fast Reactions and Rotate Ion Shields easy to use (you pop defensives wherever the biggest enemy gun is going).

You make it sound easy... Got any proof of that?

I went undefeated in the last two grand tournaments (both July events) with a CW/Drukhari army and played against these soups 4 times. I also did some testing against them prior to choosing my list. I chose to prioritize my list strength against Knights because everyone and their uncles and cousins are playing Knight soups right now.

And yes, it is fairly straightforward just like I explained. My strongest proof of it being straightforward is that I didn't play particularly well, I misplayed some rules and forgot to shoot with some of my units for example on more than one occasion, but still 20-0'ed every Knight soup I played against. I'm not sure if you're arguing there's a flaw in my reasoning or that it can't possibly work unless someone has done it before. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one in the world who has figured out Vect, Prisms and walls of flyer bases are the answer to Knight soups. The Knight soups play around a few incredibly overpowered stratagems, and the only thing that stops them reliably is Vect.

An Archon buffs 3 Ravagers and 3 Razorwings in the opener, while Prisms buff themselves. Hemlocks autohit and Crimson Hunters can even get Guide, and against fly targets they also give themselves 'doom' for free. The actual Doom and Jinx are just icing on the cake that turn a brutal amount of firepower to a ludicrous amount of firepower. The raw numbers the Eldar can dish out is insane, and they can keep moving all over the field to spread elite forces like Adeptus Custodes and Knights thin. Custo bike lists for example are simple to wipe out since you can force them to spread their forces to all 4 corners of the table. In one match against a soup with 3 Shield Captains and 3 BA Captains and Mephiston, the first charge that I received came on turn 4.

By far my toughest matchup in July was another Eldar player with 3 CW flyers and 12 Harlie bikes and a Vect detachment, where it was obvious whoever gets the first turn would win with a wipeout. I didn't have +1 but got the first turn regardless and wiped him out. Better lucky than good.

Can you please post your list?

Has anyone seen or played any of the forgeworld super heavy tanks, the Scorpion or Cobra? Whilst expensive they do seem to be designed to take down imperial knights.

kingheff wrote:
Has anyone seen or played any of the forgeworld super heavy tanks, the Scorpion or Cobra? Whilst expensive they do seem to be designed to take down imperial knights.

Love my Scorpion, has the option to protect it off the board turn 1 with cloudstrike. Plonk it next to a Farseer and used forewarned to auto-delete any enemy deepstriker you want, and an Autarch for the all important re-roll 1's. Give it Fortune + Lightning Reflexes and Alaitoc and it becomes deceptively tough. Remember you get a 5++ from holofields on the turn you Cloudstrike onto the board (you count as moving at max normal speed). It will nearly kill a knight a turn on its own without any buffs at all, which is a pretty epic feat.

Mine is the older type-1 which is quite a tall model, but from the looks of it the newer type 2 is very low profile, so you shouldn't have too much trouble getting it 50% concealed for a cover bonus.

Only downside of course is that it needs to focus all that fire onto one target, so vs certain lists it may struggle to make its money back in time, but vs knights its perfect. The Cobra looks less appealing tbh, D6 shots is very swingy compared to the almost guaranteed overwhelming firepower of the Scorpion, and really narrows down the number of targets the weapon is effective against.

Scorpions obliterate Knights. If some kind of general nerfing to Knights doesn't come, expect Scorpions to see a lot of play.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Scorpions obliterate Knights. If some kind of general nerfing to Knights doesn't come, expect Scorpions to see a lot of play.

My mathHammer says that a Scorpion does :

1) an average of 12 wounds / turn to a 5++ Imperial Knight. (14 wounds if near an autarch)

2) an average of 9 wounds/ turn to a 4++ Imperial Knight (10 wounds if near an autarch)


Not that much for a 710 points investment

Astra Militarum's Shadowsword tank does an average of 18 wounds/ turn and costs only 404 points

The underpriced piece of mon keigh trash costs ~500. There are also prices for lascannons & hb.

Scorpion should do more wounds due to extra wounds on '6s. You can also re-roll one dice for amount of shots. You also want Guide because if you don't move you won't get better invul. Against 5++ I think 18-24 wounds are more than possible (without Doom).

Cobra is d6 shots which is just too random and meh.

Honestly I think you will get more for your points from flyers and prisms.

The Cobra's d6 shots isn't great, always fire it first to definitely be able to re-roll I guess! Wounding on 2's, avg 7 dmg per shot and bonus mortal wounds certainly are nice though.
Cloudstrike is essential as far as I see for these guys, keeping them out of losing initative first turn fire plus the distort field bonus for the next turn should make them fairly durable, ten points for spirit stones also seems worth it.
They may not take down a knight per turn alone but with flyer and tank support it should be very doable, especially with flying movement to ignore terrain.
I'm very seriously considering a Scorpion, should be a nice centrepiece for the right army list and much more useful than a wraithknight at least!

I agree that Scorpions probably won't see much play. They are just waaaaay to expensive and likely won't be killing a Knight a turn. Which is a massive shame imo.

 Therion wrote:
There’s a very real way to taking down Knights.

If they play Raven, and you get 1a, you Vect the Rotate Ion Shield. Seer Council and the re-rolls make Doom and Jinx reliable. That’s a step the Knight can avoid with better deployment, but the spells aren’t mandatory for the Eldar opener.

Against Taranis, you need to let them Rotate, and you just blast through it and Vect the Darkest Hour.

The list I used recently at a major tournament does 36,6 wounds to T8 5++ without Doom and Jinx from the vehicles and flyers. Sufficient to say, even to 4++ it’s enough for a one shot. If you get the spells off, there’s a realistic chance the first Knight pops before the Prisms even Link, so they get to put their 12 wounds of damage against a second Knight.

Gallants are just target dummies because they can be boxed in with flyers and blocked from moving. If Gallants get 1a you need to Vect the Full Tilt. The always taken BA Captains don’t really change anything, except that you need to keep moving and outranging the 24” threat range, and Vecting the Upon Wings of Fire every turn.

In short, Vect and the 6+/6+ refund, flyers and Prisms are an answer to everything.

I hope this helps anyone who is struggling in the matchup.

This isn’t to say there doesn’t exist a chain of events that will lead to an Eldar loss, but it’s most certainly Eldar favored matchup. The BA+Custo+Astra soup is the easiest, then comes the Crusaders/Gallants+BA+Astra and lastly the Castellan+BA+Astra as the most tricky one if you get a long deployment (range will be an issue so you need to wreck the infantry and BA first and leave the Knight for later.

EDIT:

To the above poster, regarding targeting: By rulebook RAW it's correct you only nominate targets, you don't designate weapons, but wherever the ETC FAQ is in effect you need to nominate at least one weapon per target when you're declaring targets. This makes Lightning-Fast Reactions and Rotate Ion Shields easy to use (you pop defensives wherever the biggest enemy gun is going).

Boxing in a knight with fliers is perhaps the most armchair playing I have ever seen.

FarseerReborn wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Scorpions obliterate Knights. If some kind of general nerfing to Knights doesn't come, expect Scorpions to see a lot of play.

My mathHammer says that a Scorpion does :

1) an average of 12 wounds / turn to a 5++ Imperial Knight. (14 wounds if near an autarch)

2) an average of 9 wounds/ turn to a 4++ Imperial Knight (10 wounds if near an autarch)


Not that much for a 710 points investment

Astra Militarum's Shadowsword tank does an average of 18 wounds/ turn and costs only 404 points

Mathhammer says 21.4 wounds on average from the main gun alone with no buffs at all, and if you aren't buffing your Scorpion you're not using it right. Perhaps you aren't factoring the '6 damage on a wound roll of 6':

But yes the Shadowsword is woefully undercosted, no one would reasonably argue it isn't better value for points - its not available to Eldar unfortunately.

Spartacus wrote:

FarseerReborn wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Scorpions obliterate Knights. If some kind of general nerfing to Knights doesn't come, expect Scorpions to see a lot of play.

My mathHammer says that a Scorpion does :

1) an average of 12 wounds / turn to a 5++ Imperial Knight. (14 wounds if near an autarch)

2) an average of 9 wounds/ turn to a 4++ Imperial Knight (10 wounds if near an autarch)


Not that much for a 710 points investment

Astra Militarum's Shadowsword tank does an average of 18 wounds/ turn and costs only 404 points

Mathhammer says 21.4 wounds on average from the main gun alone with no buffs at all, and if you aren't buffing your Scorpion you're not using it right. Perhaps you aren't factoring the '6 damage on a wound roll of 6':

But yes the Shadowsword is woefully undercosted, no one would reasonably argue it isn't better value for points - its not available to Eldar unfortunately.

Again, though, the problem with the Scorpion and “using it right” amounts to a minimum of 885 points, once you add in Spirit stones, a Farseer and a Warlock for FNP, guide, doom and jinx.

I’d love to get myself a Scorpion, and will probably do so eventually, but, right now, it would just be a painting project more than a list’s centrepiece model.

Also, your 21.4 damage is when you don’t move. If you don’t move, you don’t get an invuln save. If you don’t get an invuln save, you’re going to die very quickly, regardless of whether or not you just killed 1 of the 4 Knights with the first shot.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

stratigo wrote:

 Therion wrote:
There’s a very real way to taking down Knights.

If they play Raven, and you get 1a, you Vect the Rotate Ion Shield. Seer Council and the re-rolls make Doom and Jinx reliable. That’s a step the Knight can avoid with better deployment, but the spells aren’t mandatory for the Eldar opener.

Against Taranis, you need to let them Rotate, and you just blast through it and Vect the Darkest Hour.

The list I used recently at a major tournament does 36,6 wounds to T8 5++ without Doom and Jinx from the vehicles and flyers. Sufficient to say, even to 4++ it’s enough for a one shot. If you get the spells off, there’s a realistic chance the first Knight pops before the Prisms even Link, so they get to put their 12 wounds of damage against a second Knight.

Gallants are just target dummies because they can be boxed in with flyers and blocked from moving. If Gallants get 1a you need to Vect the Full Tilt. The always taken BA Captains don’t really change anything, except that you need to keep moving and outranging the 24” threat range, and Vecting the Upon Wings of Fire every turn.

In short, Vect and the 6+/6+ refund, flyers and Prisms are an answer to everything.

I hope this helps anyone who is struggling in the matchup.

This isn’t to say there doesn’t exist a chain of events that will lead to an Eldar loss, but it’s most certainly Eldar favored matchup. The BA+Custo+Astra soup is the easiest, then comes the Crusaders/Gallants+BA+Astra and lastly the Castellan+BA+Astra as the most tricky one if you get a long deployment (range will be an issue so you need to wreck the infantry and BA first and leave the Knight for later.

EDIT:

To the above poster, regarding targeting: By rulebook RAW it's correct you only nominate targets, you don't designate weapons, but wherever the ETC FAQ is in effect you need to nominate at least one weapon per target when you're declaring targets. This makes Lightning-Fast Reactions and Rotate Ion Shields easy to use (you pop defensives wherever the biggest enemy gun is going).

Boxing in a knight with fliers is perhaps the most armchair playing I have ever seen.

All depends on the table and terrain, but, you’d be surprised at how easily you can force a Knight to redirect by using a flyer.

On the flip side, as I ran Mortan at the last event I went to, I wouldn’t have too many concerns, as I’d just force a Vect on Full Tilt turn 1, then on turn 2 force another Vect as I remove all the to hit penalties on the 2 fliers blocking me in and destroy them.

Those 6 CP, plus the 3 likely used to keep 3 Ravagers in reserve and the 3 spent on Vecting rotate shields means I’d likely have everything I want for the rest of the game CP wise.

Crimson Hunter Exarch vs Hemlock Wraithfighter

What are peoples opinions on this choice?

It looks like the CHE does slightly more damage vs the standard vehicle statline, T7 3+sv.

Then HWF does better against T8 or T5 and anything with a -1 to hit.

HWF has spirit stones but needs to get much closer to it's target so I feel like it's less survivable.

Being a Psyker is the big benefit for the HWF and the thing that seems to justify it being 35pts more expensive. Smite makes it out damage the CHE against all targets but only if you can make the target be the closest model.

Thoughts?

I feel like the Hemlock is a lot more reliable than the Exarch.

It just feels like the Exarch often keeps missing its target but that will not be a problem with the Hemlock.
Also the Hemlock can have Jinx which it can delivere pretty well too.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Crimson Hunter Exarch vs Hemlock Wraithfighter

What are peoples opinions on this choice?

It looks like the CHE does slightly more damage vs the standard vehicle statline, T7 3+sv.

Then HWF does better against T8 or T5 and anything with a -1 to hit.

HWF has spirit stones but needs to get much closer to it's target so I feel like it's less survivable.

Being a Psyker is the big benefit for the HWF and the thing that seems to justify it being 35pts more expensive. Smite makes it out damage the CHE against all targets but only if you can make the target be the closest model.

Thoughts?

Why not both??

I love both and get at least 1 of each. The short range of the Hemlock is its only draw back but also the Crimson Hunter is excellent if near a Farseer with Forewarned. Since it has a high profile and long range it can make deepstrike opponents at least think of placement.

If it moves it needs a 3 to hit with rerolls of 1 so I find its pretty reliable and the re-rolling wounds vs things like Jump Captains and Flying Hive Tyrants can make it scary.

Hemlocks mind shock pods are great for those concentrated units of guard mortars in the back ground if you can manage to kill a few off each unit.

With vector dancer they are great at blocking off those Knight Gallants.

Ohris wrote:
I feel like the Hemlock is a lot more reliable than the Exarch.

It just feels like the Exarch often keeps missing its target but that will not be a problem with the Hemlock.
Also the Hemlock can have Jinx which it can delivere pretty well too.

Also the Hemlock pretty much ignores the decaying profile due always autohiting with his weapons.

Can you guys help me with something?

In every Ynnari tournament list I see, there's always one detachment where all the units have different craftworlds associated with them, and I don't understand why. The FAQ says that while it counts as a CW detachment for the purposes of stratagems and relics, they don't gain any craftworld bonuses.

So like why do the lists show that?

 Kizuke21 wrote:
Can you guys help me with something?

In every Ynnari tournament list I see, there's always one detachment where all the units have different craftworlds associated with them, and I don't understand why. The FAQ says that while it counts as a CW detachment for the purposes of stratagems and relics, they don't gain any craftworld bonuses.

So like why do the lists show that?

Because while you dont get the craftworld trait bonus you can still use the craftworld specific stratagems on them.

That makes sense, but there's one list in particular that had Rangers and Dark Reapers under Ulthwe, and the only stratagem that specifies Ulthwe can only target Guardians. It also has a Spiritseer as Biel-tan, and the Biel-tan stratagem gives you bonus to charging, and I have no idea why you'd run a Spiritseer into melee w/o any Wraiths for it to buff.

 Kizuke21 wrote:
That makes sense, but there's one list in particular that had Rangers and Dark Reapers under Ulthwe, and the only stratagem that specifies Ulthwe can only target Guardians. It also has a Spiritseer as Biel-tan, and the Biel-tan stratagem gives you bonus to charging, and I have no idea why you'd run a Spiritseer into melee w/o any Wraiths for it to buff.

Depends on if there was a pure Ulthwe detachment as part of the army that contained a Wave Serpent. If so, the Dark Reapers in the Ynnari detachment would then be able to start the game embarked inside the Wave Serpent as it only requires the “Ulthwe” keyword.

As for the Rangers, I’m guessing it’d have been nothing more than personal choice and fit with the rest of the army.

 Kizuke21 wrote:
That makes sense, but there's one list in particular that had Rangers and Dark Reapers under Ulthwe, and the only stratagem that specifies Ulthwe can only target Guardians. It also has a Spiritseer as Biel-tan, and the Biel-tan stratagem gives you bonus to charging, and I have no idea why you'd run a Spiritseer into melee w/o any Wraiths for it to buff.

Hmm rangers and reapers as Ulthwe it's odd they can use the Keyword to board vehicles from another Detachment .

The Spiritseer choice is fairly easy since our warlocks got nerfed into gak units this edition only the spiritseer and Warlock Skyrunner are often worth running in competitive (either for normal smite or council stratagem) and biel-tan keyword allow to give them The spirit Stone of Anath'lan to re-roll psy powers.

I'm currently trying to put a Ynnari list together to take advantage of multiple craftworld specific stratagems (also because I want to use my Yncarne).

I'm not seeing a lot of use for Beil tan and Ilyanden but I've got Saim Hann Shining Spears for the advance + charge strat, 20 Ulthwe Guarians to Webway in and use the +1 to hit Strat, and Alaitoc Rangers for the 6's to hit strat.

The Alaitoc one is pretty crap but I have a cunning plan (maybe). I'll infiltrate 2x 5 Rangers on top of each other right in front of the enemy. If my opponent kills one unit, I'll bring in the Yncarne in it's place so that it is screened by the other unit, then play the 6's to hit strat on them.

This could be a good way to get the Yncarne within 12" of the enemy right off the bat. However, I'm wondering if the Yncarnes funky deployment rules allow it to ignore the FAQ rule about not deepstriking outside of your deployment zone on turn 1. Thoughts?


Edit: Should have put that in YMDC really. I found an old thread there that discussed it, and it looks like it's a no. Oddly though it seems like "as close as possible" to the unit that died could be in your own deployment zone if it's turn 1, even if a unit died in your opponents DZ lol.

Anything in the new Space Wolves Codex that can seriously threaten us Aeldari?

FarseerReborn wrote:
Anything in the new Space Wolves Codex that can seriously threaten us Aeldari?

They have a similar “intercept” stratagem, but with a -1 to hit.
But, they also have a stratagem to ignore to hit penalties.
They also have an “outflank” stratagem that can be used as many times as they want during deployment so have options to get to the backlines on turn 2 if you don’t screen properly.
Can get an 3++ death ball rolling relatively easy, but it’ll be points expensive.

Beyond that, Wolves will be like normal Marines relying on Guard etc for CP farms and probably other Marines for normal Scouts.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I'm currently trying to put a Ynnari list together to take advantage of multiple craftworld specific stratagems (also because I want to use my Yncarne).

I'm not seeing a lot of use for Beil tan and Ilyanden but I've got Saim Hann Shining Spears for the advance + charge strat, 20 Ulthwe Guarians to Webway in and use the +1 to hit Strat, and Alaitoc Rangers for the 6's to hit strat.

The Alaitoc one is pretty crap but I have a cunning plan (maybe). I'll infiltrate 2x 5 Rangers on top of each other right in front of the enemy. If my opponent kills one unit, I'll bring in the Yncarne in it's place so that it is screened by the other unit, then play the 6's to hit strat on them.

This could be a good way to get the Yncarne within 12" of the enemy right off the bat. However, I'm wondering if the Yncarnes funky deployment rules allow it to ignore the FAQ rule about not deepstriking outside of your deployment zone on turn 1. Thoughts?


Edit: Should have put that in YMDC really. I found an old thread there that discussed it, and it looks like it's a no. Oddly though it seems like "as close as possible" to the unit that died could be in your own deployment zone if it's turn 1, even if a unit died in your opponents DZ lol.

Court of the Young King is handy if you have a 2nd unit of Spears, as while its not as good as the Saim Hann one plus 2" and reroll 1's is handy, or on Banshee's or Scorpions if you've recently taken a blow to the head

 Turnip Jedi wrote:


Court of the Young King is handy if you have a 2nd unit of Spears, as while its not as good as the Saim Hann one plus 2" and reroll 1's is handy, or on Banshee's or Scorpions if you've recently taken a blow to the head

Well I'm taking the Yncarne so a blow to the head might explain that. I actually quite like banshees for a turn 1 charge out of a Wave Serpent (~25" average charge range), I've caught people out doing that then surrounding a model to prevent fall back. I feel like the rest of the list needs to be serious business to make up for Yncarne though.

Wave Serpent question:

Are tri cannon serpents pretty much the only way to go or is there a case to be made for something like BL+Crystal Targeting Matrix?

Assuming you have 4 would a 2 and 2 split be effective or just not points worthy?

Right, I didn't think to look at the relics, Biel-tan Spiritseer makes a lot more sense now

 Ovechkin8 wrote:
Wave Serpent question:

Are tri cannon serpents pretty much the only way to go or is there a case to be made for something like BL+Crystal Targeting Matrix?

Assuming you have 4 would a 2 and 2 split be effective or just not points worthy?

Tri-cannon Serpents are the go-to option in my opinion but not the only option. A lot depends on what other units you are running your army. You will need some decent anti-tank so if you are not packing that with other units, Wave Serpents are as good a place to put it as any.

Given the choice I prefer to bring heavier weapons in the form of things like Fire Prisms, Dark Reapers and aircraft. These units do not have to worry about compromising their firepower by getting the squads inside into specific positions. Tri-cannon Serpents can move and fire normally or Advance and still shoot which often comes in handy.

So the answer for me is that 3 Cannons is the best all-round option on a Serpent but you should feel free to experiment if you are building an army that relies on Serpents for heavier firepower for some reason.