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I have pretty much quit 40K other than collecting and painting models to fill out my army. It started with the most recent CSM Codex, strike 2 came with the Demon Codex and the final blow was 5th edition. The game appeared to have changed to a more noob friendly environment (seems all games are going that way) and I wasn't really happy about it. Here are my questions:

How's 5th? What's the good, what's the bad?

What is the current tactics for CSM overall? I have Undivided and Khorne, how viable are they?

What's the current state of the game as Codices are getting rolled out?

Are SM over the top with their new Codex?

Techboss wrote: How's 5th? What's the good, what's the bad?

It's pretty good. Vehicles aren't death traps. But everything has cover.

Techboss wrote: What is the current tactics for CSM overall? I have Undivided and Khorne, how viable are they?

Use a lot of PMs, Zerkers, or Noise Marines. The Zerkers are pretty viable. Buy some land raiders and stick them in it. Troops are pretty essential now. They are the only thing that can hold objectives. But use Land raiders with Zerkers in them. Roll the Raiders over some objectives and just stay there. It is very tough to crack a Land Raider with daemonic possession

Techboss wrote: What's the current state of the game as Codices are getting rolled out?

Matter of opinion. I'd say pretty good. But IG and Necrons need some love. Aswell as Dark Eldar. I think they are getting some soon though

Techboss wrote: Are SM over the top with their new Codex?

Matter of opinion. But I personally believe yes they are. They have 2 extra slots in all their transports now. Just in case you want to put an IC with a troop choice and have him wear terminator armor. Some of the characters are pretty ridiculous too. There is one who can just hit an IC and insta kill him. I just wonder where all the extra space is in the Chaos vehicles, probably taken up by some extra skulls... you know just in case there aren't enough around.

While I don't play, and havn't played against, Chaos in 5e, I feel I should comment on some of this...

Typeline wrote: Are SM over the top with their new Codex?

Matter of opinion. But I personally believe yes they are. They have 2 extra slots in all their transports now. Just in case you want to put an IC with a troop choice and have him wear terminator armor. Some of the characters are pretty ridiculous too. There is one who can just hit an IC and insta kill him. I just wonder where all the extra space is in the Chaos vehicles, probably taken up by some extra skulls... you know just in case there aren't enough around.

Drop pods also gained 2 slots.

Khorne Berserkers got a boost in the new codex and in 5th. All melee got a small boost with run and that their rides tend to live longer.

The CSM codex isn't underpowered. The SM codex isn't necessarily overpowered. The issue is that the SM codex of new is the CSM codex of old. SM got all the goodies where as CSM were left bland. Power wise, the CSM codex has lots of kick and durability.

It sounds as if you were a khorne undecided player. Heh, I was too and now I play more cult style armies or apocalypse. If you were a black legion player, enjoy the power boost of daemonic possession and the flexibility of your troop choices.

While 5e may be more noob friendly, it's way more streamlined and balanced than 4e. If it were ONLY more noob friendly, I might be on your side but I think the game as a whole is much more playable and enjoyable.

Anyone who reads both the CSM codex and the SM codex and thinks that the SM codex is playing a different game than I am.

"Thinks that the SM codex is" what?

Yeah, I'm glad I'm not the only one confused by that post.

I'll be the first to say that the current Chaos codex sucks rocks when compared to the last one. However, this is not a complaint about the power, just everything else. There are some stupidly powerful builds that can come out of it. It is by no means a weak codex, its just all of the fluff and customizablity has been ripped out of it and left it a shallow shell of its previous self.

I played a 1750 pt. game against CSM this week. I don't know the codex but I do know that one of the marine's head exploded and he turned into a greater summoned demon and that damn thing was damn near unstoppable.

ive been a csm player since the codex came out in 3rd edition as i started playing the game and personally i love it ok there isnt the options to do as many things bt when ypu have cult troops as scoring units aswell as basic marines who can be given icons to upgrade them wheres the problem

as for going up against the new sm codex ive played it numerous times and won alot more than ive lost

5th ed SM are very good but I honestly believe that's more because 4th ed SM were just terrible from the get-go.

Techboss wrote:
How's 5th? What's the good, what's the bad?

Can't speak on the CSM and SM points, but as someone making a return to 40K after several years of not playing I am very happy with 5th edition. I bought the 4th edition introductory set and really didn't like the rules, and I also wasn't impressed with the SM codex or the CSM codex. The rules are a lot more streamlined and play well, at least in the few games that I've played. Combat is still as deadly as ever, and I've found the numerous cover saves don't affect play all that much. Haven't tried any psykers yet (I play Necron, so we ain't got any LOL) but they seem to be in line with the rest of the game, ie, not too overpowered.

Bad...honestly, can't really think of anything that I'd say is bad. None of the rules concepts are too hard to understand and I think the game has taken the right step orward.

Dang I was trying to be terse and dismissive, and I didn't write enough of a sentence to be intelligible. I'll try again.

CSM is a much stronger codex than SM.

Well, its not easy to compare the SM and CSM codices.
Finally, I think that SM is best played in a shooty and counter strike style while CSM is more cc oriented.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, its not easy to compare the SM and CSM codices.
Finally, I think that SM is best played in a shooty and counter strike style while CSM is more cc oriented.

That, then, would be a comparison.

The new CSM codex is similar to the old one in that you can have very expensive models on the field, limiting your numbers. It is an "elite" force that relies on quality rather than quantity. In 5th edition this isn't quite as strong a trait as it was in 4th.

The SM codex has units and unit combinations that are very much over the top. A balanced force can be built from the codex, but don't expect to see them in tournament or highly competitive play.

Another comparison is that Space Marines are more reliable than their Chaos brethren, which may be an odd claim to make given that there's more Fearless Chaos Space Marine units (but not the Chaos Space Marine unit!) than there are Fearless Space Marine units (excepting Dark Angels, who have Fearless up the bird).

Chaos Space Marines pay a premium for their Fearless units, and they have plenty of other stuff that's considered unreliable like Possessed, Chaos Dreadnoughts, Fabius Bile''s ministrations, etc. I think that people can handle this randomness so long as their strategies allow for any of the predetermined outcomes, rather than for a particular outcome, but I think I'm alone in that line of thought.

Regardless, I think Chaos Space Marines are more of a high roller army.

Techboss wrote:
The game appeared to have changed to a more noob friendly environment (seems all games are going that way) and I wasn't really happy about it.

You have no idea how angry this statement makes me.

Jayden63 wrote:
I'll be the first to say that the current Chaos codex sucks rocks when compared to the last one. However, this is not a complaint about the power, just everything else. There are some stupidly powerful builds that can come out of it. It is by no means a weak codex, its just all of the fluff and customizablity has been ripped out of it and left it a shallow shell of its previous self.

The last codex fluff was about spiky marine chapt... legions. The new codex fluff has more inspiration from the warband theme from Chaos Fantasy where chaos is chaos and not empire with spikes. I simply love the new fluff.

The custumizability was a joke since everybody played Iron Warriors becouse nine obliterators and min maxed lasplas squads was "awesome fluff".

Papadoc wrote:

The custumizability was a joke since everybody played Iron Warriors becouse nine obliterators and min maxed lasplas squads was "awesome fluff".

Bite your tongue. There were just as many Slannesh, Khorne and Nurgle armies as Iron Warriors. Hell, I even saw a few impressive black legion and home made stuff. And if you thought Iron Warriors was bad. Now you can have 9 fething obliterators in every army mixed in with plague marines and slannesh deamon princes.

If anything the new chaos codex encourages OTT spam worse than the old one ever did. People actually had thematic and fluffy fun chaos armies, that also happened to have a chance of winning. Now its just pick the strongest out of everything and go with it. No limits or limitations.

Speaking of no limits or limitations, I've noticed that now everyone's caught up with Stelek's one trick rending pony POD (Plague Marines, Obliterators, and Daemon Princes), they starting to branch out to other options that aren't such blatant plasma-bait.

I think the current 'sterility' of the Codex is simply a matter of people gaming the state of the meta-game rather than any intrinsic demerit of the Codex. The POD is an effective answer to masses of Ork boyz, but it's boned by plasma-packing Space Marines, Drop Pod Assaulting Sternguard, Eldar with Power Weapons (still oddly rare), Tyranid Godzilla armies.

Its weakness is that it depends on a small model count protected by Toughness and Armour, and it's no wonder it gets chewed up when confronted by armies that ignore Toughness and Armour, and to whom all that expensive Toughness and Armour is expensive window dressing.

It's just the usual meta-game equilibrium, with some people trying to get out in front of where whatever is new and shiny takes us. Give it a year or two for people to catch up to the ins and outs of 5th edition, and to get used to Space Marines, and we'll see an entirely different flavour of the month.

Heck, we've seen the change just recently, as people are finally noticing that the Lash of Submission is not overwhelming, and that Daemon Princes are big juicy targets on a 5th edition battlefield.

The current tendency towards Melta Guns and Flamethrowers is understandable since the improvement of cover saves, but you'd think the improved safety of Plasma weapons and their utility against Space Marines (with increasing utility against Daemon Princes, Plague Marines, Obliterators, and Terminators) would eventually draw people back to them.

Nurglitch wrote:
-stuff-

I heard you don't actually play somewhere...

Nurglitch wrote:Speaking of no limits or limitations, I've noticed that now everyone's caught up with Stelek's one trick rending pony POD (Plague Marines, Obliterators, and Daemon Princes), they starting to branch out to other options that aren't such blatant plasma-bait.

That kind of list was devised long ago by many other people and is not a new concept. I have to ask, where have you been playing since the chaos codex came out? The Sterility of the codex is out there because there is no bonus for taking a thematic list such as deathguard, iron warriors, world eaters, etc.

Masses of Ork Boyz are lucky to kill a single Plague Marine in combat, plasma packing marines are melta-packing marines thanks to overlapping coversaves, drop podding sternguard only have the option of wasting their precious combi-melta shots on PM or that shiny landraider with the rest of their ammotypes still giving PM a save of some sorts not to mention a feel no pain. Eldar kill Plague Marines with Prismcannons and EML, Tyranid Godzilla armies are more about volume of fire and most of the weapons still have to deal with the toughness of PM.

Plague marines are not the only cult-troops that are worth it in the codex, khorne beserkers shine when it comes to counter-charges when the Plague Marines absorb the first assault.

thehod wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Speaking of no limits or limitations, I've noticed that now everyone's caught up with Stelek's one trick rending pony POD (Plague Marines, Obliterators, and Daemon Princes), they starting to branch out to other options that aren't such blatant plasma-bait.

That kind of list was devised long ago by many other people and is not a new concept. I have to ask, where have you been playing since the chaos codex came out?

I'd have to agree there. PMs are good, DPs are good, Oblits are good, Lash is good.

Even if it's a 'one trick pony' if that trick is winning I'm perfectly fine with that.

Typeline:

Yeah, that's what people around here seem to bleat when someone else disagrees with them. I've seen that accusation thrown at other people beside me, but I guess it's understandable because my gaming buddies and I don't play the sorts of games I see being given battle reports; we play with more terrain, for one thing, and that makes an incredible difference*. We also tend to co-operative game; i.e. openly discuss the best strategy for a situation rather than trying to trick each other into stuff. It's an uncommon style of gaming, I guess.

The funny thing is how my group seems to be ahead of the curve in some respects (Lash of Submission being recognized as a rending pony, for example, and Lootas being quickly recognized as a rending pony, and so on), and kind of behind in others (nobody's bothered to collect or even proxy the Inquisition books). Sometimes I think it's because I'm the only one spending time on forums!

thehod:

First I played with some friends in Halifax, despite the Rogue Battalion falling apart when my brother left, and then I found some guys through a friend when I moved home. The only thing I don't do is paint, and I have an excuse for that!

The latest Chaos Codex is what got me back into the game, which is partly why I'm so annoyed by the POD armies I see in the army list forum (much less in person or in the battle report forum though): I get back into the game with a codex that has so many more live options than the previous abortion of a codex and people are still stuck in the 'best build' mindset. I quit a couple of years into the 4th edition because I felt really let down by what I perceived to be the lack of tactical depth in the game, but a couple of years designing and playing my own games (as well as games like Crossfire, Epic: Armageddon, Bloodbowl, Stargrunt II, Starship Troopers, etc) gave me a different perspective.

The trouble was, once I started playing, I also started reading the rulebooks very closely, thanks to my own experience in designing rules for this type of game and the reading and logic skills I'd acquired in school. Previously I'd relied on a rather careless reading of the rules. One thing led to another, and once I realized that I'd been both wrong about the game and its designers, it was inevitable that I'd be banned from Warseer for disagreeing with the local orthodoxy that the rules were badly written by idiots, when they were simply not idiot-proof.

Edit: *You know what's really weird? My friends and I typically play with lots of hills, solid buildings, crystal forests, hoodoos, a modular set of trenchworks I've built. Basically lots of stuff to block line of sight and break up a table (and is easily made from styofoam). While cover saves have improved, we haven't noticed them become the all-pervasive things that they've somehow become elsewhere. Maybe it's just hyperbole. What's weirder is when I read battle reports other people post, they seem to have so little terrain as to be all out of proportion to the importance that people put on cover. The moral of the story seems to be this: either many people play on very thin and scraggly terrain (GW or GW-like trees, GW ruins), or they don't clear screening units first, or both.

Nurglitch wrote:One thing led to another, and once I realized that I'd been both wrong about the game and its designers, it was inevitable that I'd be banned from Warseer for disagreeing with the local orthodoxy that the rules were badly written by idiots, when they were simply not idiot-proof.

I do agree on that statement right there.

One thing I feel this forum misses out on is in-store composition. My store has only 2 Ork players and one is a long time veteran yet all we have 3 Deamon players and a multiples of Chaos, Nid, Tau, and Space Marines. The odd armies are Dark Eldar, Necrons (most shelved theirs until new codex), Eldar, and IG/Inquisition. That kind of composition at the store changes the Meta-game and going to another store can be dominated by another set of stores.

@Nurglitch

Your comments on the POD only leave this possible reply

I can boast that the best Death Guard player when there was a Death Guard is not only a member of the Wrecking Crew, but my blood relation.

His POD does not include lash, and the O is to fill certain gaps the new Dex created, like loss of the GUO. And the armies that you have listed that give it "trouble" only give it trouble from a math hammer/ theory hammer perspective. You as a game designer should be able to wade through those blanket statements.

POD like any other army excells in the right hands.

Also, the best POD use nurgle D's

Of course the POD excels in the right hands. The problem is that people think it's the POD, and not the hands!

I'd agree with you that the best PODs use Nurgle Daemon Princes. Nurgle's Rot is just unholy, and you can use it where the Daemon Prince does best: in close combat.

Still, my condolences for having a POD-person as a blood relation...

what is POD?????

From above:

POD (Plague Marines, Obliterators, and Daemon Princes)

bryantsbears wrote:
POD (Plague Marines, Obliterators, and Daemon Princes)

That's a good acronym. I prefer NOD (NM, Oblits, and DPs).