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Hey All,

I have just put this list together for tourneys in 09. Any thoughts on it would be welcome.

84 Models, 2000pts total;

HQ
Avatar of Khaine
155
Farseer - Singing Spear, Doom
83

Elites
7 Striking Scorpions
+ Scorpion Exarch - Scorpions Claw, Stalker
160
7 Striking Scorpions
+ Scorpion Exarch - Scorpions Claw, Stalker, Shadowstrike
180
6 Fire Dragons
96

Troops
9 Dire Avengers
+ Avenger Exarch - Power Weapon, Shimmershield, Defend
162
9 Dire Avengers
+ Avenger Exarch - 2 Avenger Shuriken Catapults, Bladestorm
152
9 Dire Avengers
+ Avenger Exarch - 2 Avenger Shuriken Catapults, Bladestorm
152
+ Wave Serpent - Twin Linked Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stone
110
10 Guardian Defenders - Scatter Laser Platform
95
10 Guardian Defenders - Eldar Missile Launcher Platform
100
5 Pathfinders
120

Heavy Support
2 War Walkers - 2 Shuriken Cannons, 2 Scatter Lasers
100
Wraithlord - Eldar Missile Launcher, Bright Lance, 2 Flamers
155
Falcon - Eldar Missile Launcher, Pulse Laser, Spirit Stone, Holo Fields
180

I don't play Eldar so I can't help too much, just that I'd be afraid of this list!

Not too much a fan, here's why, and as a quick comment, it just seems a bit scattered

-Only one mounted troop choice to take objectives

-One infiltrating squad will get ahead of the army and be largely unsupported, the other is walking?

-DA's on foot and small guardian squads on foot, even if they are fearless due to the Avatar, they'll still die the same to heavy bolter fire, and any real horde army will put a hurting on you (orks, nids, etc)

-Falcons + fire dragons are 300 points for a sub par tank that cant fire any of its guns if it moves fast enough to protect its cargo, and at best the 6 fire dragons will disembark, roast a target, and then bite it to any sort of counter attack the opponent puts together

-Whats the farseer supposed to be used for?


Think you need to rework this a good bit and when doing so, think about what armies you'll be facing in tournaments (nidzilla, ork horde, drop pod space marines, etc) and think of how you would fair against them realistically.

You may also want Runes of Warding on the Farseer, just so you have some defense against Lash (which will have its foul way with your infantry if it gets through).

I like the EML on the falcon so you can move 12 and still fire all your weapons, but you're infantry is confused. I assume you're gonna foot schlog the guardians and dire avengers with the avatar, but if you're gonna be walking the guardians, you can't fire the heavy weapons. EML + scatter laser is confused range wise. I'd rather have 1 20 man guardian squad with a shuriken cannon and a warlock with conceal. The +5 cover save from conceal is solid. I find that the 1 shot weapons in guardian squads are near worthless for the points because they have BS 3, so you only have a 50/50 shot of hitting.

With the striking scorpions, you either need to give them both shadowstrike or make one squad a 10 man squad, like the other dude said, they're gonna take a gakload of fire by themselves. I understand that the scorpions claw is the only power fist that eldar can get, but it's not worth the points, you can't blow up vehicles with it (str 6) and if you really need it in close combat, you're doing something wrong. Chainsabres are the way to go, they'll save you a lot of points, reroll hits/wounds and let you utilize the high inititive of the exarch.

The rune of warding is a mandatory pick with the farseer. It's the best 15 points the eldar can spend, I've crunched the numbers and you have a 37.5% chance of a perils of the warp with it. If the psyker has leadership 10 and you don't have the rune they only have a ~9% chance of failing the leadership test, and a even lower one for perils of the warp. If they bring psykers they almost kill themselves, or they don't use them which is even better.

I don't know about the 2 war walkers, I don't have any but I think they're kind of garbage. I'd rather have a 3 man squad of dark reapers or a wraithlord with a wraithblade. You can't bring anything better than dark reapers against marines. Especially with the crack shot exarch. I'd think about taking off the EML on the wraith lord, trashing the warwalkers and bringing a 3 man squad of dark reapers. A dark reaper exarch with crack shot and a reaper launcher fires twice with BS 5 so +2 to hit, rerolls wounds which is probably +3 +2 with STR 5, AP 3 and no cover saves from the crack shot. it's almost guaranteed to kill 2 marines a turn. it's also got close to the best range in the eldar codex.

fire dragons are awesome at destroying tanks but you don't need 6. I'd think about trimming it to 4, and bring an exarch with tank hunter as a fifth. +2 on the damage table is ridicious. Fire dragons are really a one use squad, you wheel up, disembark, blow whatever you're shooting at up and then get smoked. so why not min max it? you don't need 6 melta hits, especially if you assault too.

Well, you don't need that many troops. Guardians and Dire Avengers cannot hold mission objectives on their own, they need support.
I'd beef up the Scorpion squads, add a 3rd Warwalker, and give one DA squad a Serpent.

I think you'd be surprised how well a 20 man squad of guardians with a warlock and farseer can hold up. The +5 cover save is nice against pie plates and the farseers leadership keeps them from breaking. A doomed squad getting hit with 40 str 4 shots is gonna hurt. And the witchblades can down any AV.

I'd drop the falcon for a second BL-armed Wraithlord, Take a third Warwalker and give all three a pair of scatter lasers (24x S6 shots/turn FTW!), upgrade your Farseer to have guide and spirit stones so it can guide the walkers and doom something else.

If you're going to footslog, then footslog! Drop the Serpent (one transport won't do much of anything except attract fire) and drop the pathfinders (everything else can move and shoot). Use the points to increase your guardian squad sizes and put a BL in each - also put a warlock in each squad.

Lose the fire dragons and take warlocks with desturctor. For a footslogging force they last longer and dish out more punishment.

just my $0.02 - hope it helps...

You have to have a wave serpent for the fire dragons otherwise they're never gonna get a shot off.

@haderach - I don't have the codex with me so can't give you a page ref (can someone help me out here?) but warwalkers with two weapons fire both, wraithlords with two weapons fire as one twin-linked.

P.S. - you put in an earlier post that you can't move and fire the heavy weapons with your guardians - you can because the platforms they are mounted on allow you to do that.


I don't want to come across as being an arse here, but make sure you're familiar with all the rules you advise people on.

You're right! I've been living a lie! My guardians are a lot better than I thought they were. I really hate games workshop, they can't write a rulebook or codex that has any rhyme or reason to it. vehicle upgrade rules on war walker page ftl. I was told anything with 2 of the same gun on it was counted as twin-linked but I can't find anything to back it up in the rulebook.

I still wouldn't bother putting bl in guardian squads, the BS 3 just makes them miss.

no problem - just glad I could help

If you're worried about BS3 then either go scatter laser or EML with your guardian squads, just make sure you take BL's somewhere else in the army or Land Raiders will pwn you...

I like the BL on wraithlords because of the BS 4 and if you're gonna get into CC range you have flamers or shuriken catapults.
Shuriken cannons vs scatter laser for guardians is a tough call, but I choose shuriken cannons because it's 10 points cheaper for 1 less shot, 1 ft less of range. but i'm usually trying to shoot close range so i can get the shuriken catapults in there too. AP 5 vs AP 6 on the scatter laser for imperial guard is actually a huge deal too.

targetawg wrote:Not too much a fan, here's why, and as a quick comment, it just seems a bit scattered

-Only one mounted troop choice to take objectives

I find a hybrid list is the most balanced and effective at tournaments. All mech leaves you lacking in numbers and is frowned upon in comp scoring. All foot is less resiliant and slow. My list has elements of both. One mounted troops is plenty. In objective missions you simply need to hold with your foot troops and contest/remove the enemy from theirs. The last minute dash of the unkillable falcon is not game winning due to random game length.

targetawg wrote:-One infiltrating squad will get ahead of the army and be largely unsupported, the other is walking?

One outflanks, the other either takes over the serpent or backs up the Avatar. Being armed with pistols means there is no reason not to run.

targetawg wrote:-DA's on foot and small guardian squads on foot, even if they are fearless due to the Avatar, they'll still die the same to heavy bolter fire, and any real horde army will put a hurting on you (orks, nids, etc)

Um, if i am stupid enough to place the DA and guardians in the open, with no intervening cover or models. I have found most enemies tend to ignore the guardians btw. They see them as a non threat, this is perfect for a troops unit. In addition should they truely concentrate on them, they can alway go to ground to become nearly as resiliant as MEQ. A horde army hurts everyone, but bladestorm, scatterlasers and 2 MC tend to tip the balance in the eldar's favour. In addition 2 units of scorpions eat ork boyz and termagants combined with Doom...

targetawg wrote:-Falcons + fire dragons are 300 points for a sub par tank that cant fire any of its guns if it moves fast enough to protect its cargo, and at best the 6 fire dragons will disembark, roast a target, and then bite it to any sort of counter attack the opponent puts together

Exactly right, The Dragons are a suicide unit if there ever was one. But the simple threat of them makes Land Raiders cautious. I am more than happy to sacrifice 96pts of dragons to knock out any tank in any army.

targetawg wrote:-Whats the farseer supposed to be used for?

Doom is a wonderful force multiplier. Rerolling Wounds on bladestorm, scorpions, wraithlord flamers, plasma missiles, avatar, pathfinders, scatter lasers, etc is beyond great. He is inexpensive, tots a lascannon equivalent and hangs out with his mate the wraithlord.

Dorfdorf wrote:You may also want Runes of Warding on the Farseer, just so you have some defense against Lash (which will have its foul way with your infantry if it gets through).

Yeah, i just got mauled by lash a couple of tourneys ago. Also my Avatar has been force weaponed last two times i have faced a CSM sorceror.
What would you suggest i drop in order to get the 15pts?

haderach wrote:I like the EML on the falcon so you can move 12 and still fire all your weapons,

I have found this to be the best build in 5th ed for the Falcon, it gives you the option to move 6" and tank bust, or move 12" and fire everything.

haderach wrote:but you're infantry is confused. I assume you're gonna foot schlog the guardians and dire avengers with the avatar, but if you're gonna be walking the guardians, you can't fire the heavy weapons. ,

As Chimera points out you can move and fire. How do you mean 'confused'? or has your opinion changed with the move and fire?

haderach wrote:EML + scatter laser is confused range wise. I'd rather have 1 20 man guardian squad with a shuriken cannon and a warlock with conceal. The +5 cover save from conceal is solid. I find that the 1 shot weapons in guardian squads are near worthless for the points because they have BS 3, so you only have a 50/50 shot of hitting.

Agreed BS3 sucks, but i do not want to cookie cutter the guardians. The Scatter laser is the best heavy weap for guardians. The EML is there for more tank busting. Eldar pay through the nose for good Anti Tank, the EML here is a stop gap to get cheaper [while less reliable] Anti tank. In addition they can fire plasma if needs be [which is nice considering how few template weapons there are]

haderach wrote:With the striking scorpions, you either need to give them both shadowstrike or make one squad a 10 man squad, like the other dude said, they're gonna take a gakload of fire by themselves. I understand that the scorpions claw is the only power fist that eldar can get, but it's not worth the points, you can't blow up vehicles with it (str 6) and if you really need it in close combat, you're doing something wrong. Chainsabres are the way to go, they'll save you a lot of points, reroll hits/wounds and let you utilize the high inititive of the exarch.

the Chainsabres are more of the same; more str 4 attacks. with 28 attacks from the normal scorpions the claw makes sense. In addition it does much better against TEQ and models with FNP. Chainsabres are worse against vehicles and cannot take advantage of Doom.

haderach wrote:
The rune of warding is a mandatory pick with the farseer. It's the best 15 points the eldar can spend, I've crunched the numbers and you have a 37.5% chance of a perils of the warp with it. If the psyker has leadership 10 and you don't have the rune they only have a ~9% chance of failing the leadership test, and a even lower one for perils of the warp. If they bring psykers they almost kill themselves, or they don't use them which is even better.

I have tried to deny this time and again. just from the standpoint that against most armies at a tourney this is a waste of 15pts. But i gotta hand it to you, the reasons you have given have convinced me. Gotta chuck em in.

haderach wrote:
I don't know about the 2 war walkers, I don't have any but I think they're kind of garbage. I'd rather have a 3 man squad of dark reapers or a wraithlord with a wraithblade. You can't bring anything better than dark reapers against marines. Especially with the crack shot exarch. I'd think about taking off the EML on the wraith lord, trashing the warwalkers and bringing a 3 man squad of dark reapers. A dark reaper exarch with crack shot and a reaper launcher fires twice with BS 5 so +2 to hit, rerolls wounds which is probably +3 +2 with STR 5, AP 3 and no cover saves from the crack shot. it's almost guaranteed to kill 2 marines a turn. it's also got close to the best range in the eldar codex.

Reapers are poor. they cannot move, cannot outflank, are easy to kill and are expensive. the Crack shot exarch with EML costs close to 70+pts simply not worth it IMHO. Also you have confused crack shot and fast shot.
Fast gives the EML two shots
Crack gives you rerolls to wound and ignores coversaves.
You cannot combine them in one shooting phase, so it is one or the other.

haderach wrote:
fire dragons are awesome at destroying tanks but you don't need 6. I'd think about trimming it to 4, and bring an exarch with tank hunter as a fifth. +2 on the damage table is ridicious. Fire dragons are really a one use squad, you wheel up, disembark, blow whatever you're shooting at up and then get smoked. so why not min max it? you don't need 6 melta hits, especially if you assault too.

The squad of six costs 96pts.
the squad you propose [4+exarch w. tank hunters] costs 123pts.

I am not sure how that is better? Would you not prefer 6 bites of the cherry?
Also it is not +2 on the damage table, but rather +1 to Armour Penetration Rolls and +1 for AP1 on the damage chart.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, you don't need that many troops. Guardians and Dire Avengers cannot hold mission objectives on their own, they need support.

Support = Avatar, scorpions, wraithlord, farseer, war walkers, falcon, fire dragons, pathfinders, wave serpent

Chimera_Calvin wrote:I'd drop the falcon for a second BL-armed Wraithlord, Take a third Warwalker and give all three a pair of scatter lasers (24x S6 shots/turn FTW!), upgrade your Farseer to have guide and spirit stones so it can guide the walkers and doom something else.

That is tempting. A second Wraithlord would be nice, but i cannot. The Fire Dragons need a transport. With the proliferation of Land Raiders i need the Dragons. Also falcons are still rock hard and a good for contesting objectives.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:no problem - just glad I could help

If you're worried about BS3 then either go scatter laser or EML with your guardian squads, just make sure you take BL's somewhere else in the army or Land Raiders will pwn you...

Land Raiders alway seem to pwn now.

Has anyone found a way to take them out with Eldar? I can see alot of two LR armies springing up in the near future...

haderach wrote:I like the BL on wraithlords because of the BS 4 and if you're gonna get into CC range you have flamers or shuriken catapults.
Shuriken cannons vs scatter laser for guardians is a tough call, but I choose shuriken cannons because it's 10 points cheaper for 1 less shot, 1 ft less of range. but i'm usually trying to shoot close range so i can get the shuriken catapults in there too. AP 5 vs AP 6 on the scatter laser for imperial guard is actually a huge deal too.

Im thinking you are correct. I may switch the EML from the guardians to a shuriken cannon, that will give me the 15pts for Runes of Warding. Good idea?

I really appreciate everyones comments, Please do not take offence to anything i have said, i am just explaining my viewpoint. I do not want to be negative, but want to stimulate discussion.

As mentioned, warding really is mandatory. Sooooooo good.
Personally I'd rather a second wraithlord than the 2 warwalkers, though I know you already have the walkers painted and its a minor thing...

Personally, I'm not a fan of the scorpions at all. I'd actually much rather have one unit of 10 harlequins with 10 kisses, than 2 units of 8 scorpions. When you factor in Doom (i.e. reroll chance to rend!) theyre pretty awesome, net you 2 more fusion pistols for some added "oh you thought you could drive a landraider on this objective did you?" and are fairly safe from shooting if you play them right as a counter assault unit. Ontop of that they free up 70 points, enough to sub in that second wraithlord and buy some runes of warding .

people would probably look on the walkers and scorps more favourably for comp however.

Reapers are poor. they cannot move, cannot outflank, are easy to kill and are expensive. the Crack shot exarch with EML costs close to 70+pts simply not worth it IMHO. Also you have confused crack shot and fast shot.
Fast gives the EML two shots
Crack gives you rerolls to wound and ignores coversaves.
You cannot combine them in one shooting phase, so it is one or the other.

You don't take the EML , just the standard weapon, the reaper launcher, it's heavy 2. Crack shot is better and cheaper than fast shot.
It's 127 points the way I bring them, and one game I took out an entire chaos havoc squad (6 dudes) that was in cover in a single turn. You don't need to move and outflank, they're like rangers, just sit and shoot. I've used them to great success.

The 4+exarch w tank hunter fire dragon squad only costs 107. 5*16+12+15=107
Or just bring 5 fire dragons for 80 points. That'll free up the rune of warding right there.

Eldar are probably the best equiped to take out land raiders with brightlances.

Okay, So i have played a couple of test games. Mixed results. Found i need more oomph to the mechanized wing. Also that the difference between 6 fire dragons and 5 fire dragons @ 6" is negligible.

So here is the revised list;

75 Models, 2000pts total;

HQ
Avatar of Khaine
155
Farseer - Singing Spear, Doom, Runes of Warding
98

Elites
7 Striking Scorpions
+ Scorpion Exarch - Scorpions Claw, Stalker
160
+ Wave Serpent - Twin Linked Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stone
110
7 Striking Scorpions
+ Scorpion Exarch - Scorpions Claw, Stalker
160
+ Wave Serpent - Twin Linked Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stone
110
5 Fire Dragons
80

Troops
9 Dire Avengers
+ Avenger Exarch - Power Weapon, Shimmershield, Defend
162
9 Dire Avengers
+ Avenger Exarch - 2 Avenger Shuriken Catapults, Bladestorm
152
9 Dire Avengers
+ Avenger Exarch - 2 Avenger Shuriken Catapults, Bladestorm
152
10 Guardian Defenders - Scatter Laser Platform
95
5 Pathfinders
120

Heavy Support
2 War Walkers - 2 Shuriken Cannons, 2 Scatter Lasers
100
Wraithlord - Eldar Missile Launcher, Bright Lance, 2 Flamers
155
Falcon - Eldar Missile Launcher, Pulse Laser, Spirit Stone, Holo Fields, Shuriken Cannon
190

Better?