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Hey, I was playing my space marines against a Eldar opponent using a Falcon to transport his Fire Dragons. He had them deployed under the falcon when I shot them with a Vindi. The Blast Template scatter about an inch back and was covering most of the falcon and all of the Fire Dragons. He claimed that since 4 of the 5 Fire Dragons where under the Falcon that it didn't hit them. He uses the long Skimmer Stick so he can get them under. When the Falcon wrecked he then moved the Fire Dragons around the wreck. This to me is all kinds of wrong, but rather then argue over a supposely fun game, I just played it out. So what are the rules on this? Can he place them under a skimmer, and if it wrecks and falls doesn't that kill the models under it??

SwarmLord1977 wrote:Hey, I was playing my space marines against a Eldar opponent using a Falcon to transport his Fire Dragons. He had them deployed under the falcon when I shot them with a Vindi. The Blast Template scatter about an inch back and was covering most of the falcon and all of the Fire Dragons. He claimed that since 4 of the 5 Fire Dragons where under the Falcon that it didn't hit them. He uses the long Skimmer Stick so he can get them under. When the Falcon wrecked he then moved the Fire Dragons around the wreck. This to me is all kinds of wrong, but rather then argue over a supposely fun game, I just played it out. So what are the rules on this? Can he place them under a skimmer, and if it wrecks and falls doesn't that kill the models under it??

The basic movement rules (pg 11) prohibit a model from moving into the 'space' occupied by another model:

"A model may not move into or thorugh the space occupied by another model (which is represented by its base or by its hull)."


The only question is whether or not disembarking from a vehicle follows the basic rules for movement, but personally I would say it does.

However, even if you do play that you are allowed to disembark models under a vehicle (which is certainly debatable), there is absolutely nothing in the rules about a vehicle 'protecting' the models underneath it from being hit by a blast. The rules state (except for in the case of ruins) that any models under a blast are hit by it, and that would most certainly apply in this case.

If the Fire Dragons were already disembarked when the Falcon was destroyed he also had no business moving them, as only models embarked on a vehicle disembark when the vehicle is destroyed, the fact that his Fire Dragons were already disembarked when the Falcon was destroyed means they should not have been moved (plus they definitely should have been hit by the blast).


In short, your opponent made up several rules.

There's nothing wrong with being under a skimmer, as the skimmer does not occupy the space below itself (a physical impossibility).

According to that logic, you could place a bunch of your minis on top of the skimmer.

Indeed. The rulebook no longer has a prohibition for a model being on top of another one - which did exist in 4th edition. This is a gap in the rules which should be resolved in a FAQ.

But, by RAW, if a model moves under a skimmer it is not moving into or through the space occupied by its hull.

That may very well be true, but from the perspective of the OP, there is nothing in the rules that would prevent models under the skimmer from being affected by the Vindi's large blast marker. The best argument that could be made would be for a cover save, but I think that wouldn't fly, either.

The models under the skimmer are still visible to the firing model. The models under the skimmer are still under the blast marker.

But, then, Yak already said that.

take a look at pg. 71 in the BRB i

it says that
A. a skimmers base is effectively ignored except in assault
meaning the hull is the treated as the base.

B. a skimmer can not end their move over friendly or enemy models.
i am assuming that this works vice versa so you can not end your move under a skimmer

But it doesn't say it works vice versa.

The situation I came across was assaulting gaunts under a skimmer to contact the units behind it.

Would it change the answer if the gaunts also assaulted the skimmer?

coredump wrote:But it doesn't say it works vice versa.

The situation I came across was assaulting gaunts under a skimmer to contact the units behind it.

Would it change the answer if the gaunts also assaulted the skimmer?

That depends on whether you decide that the skimmer's move was moving, or that the skimmer's move was available in the general "your side" move and it's move was to not to move.

I'm not sure I'm making myself clear here. It is a semantic distinction. Is a "move" the actual movement, or is it the opportunity to move which may not be taken.

youbedead wrote:take a look at pg. 71 in the BRB i

it says that
A. a skimmers base is effectively ignored except in assault
meaning the hull is the treated as the base.

Looking at p. 71 it never says the base is the hull. It only says to ignore the base when measuring distances. It certainly never states that the area below the base can not be moved into by an enemy model.

B. a skimmer can not end their move over friendly or enemy models.
i am assuming that this works vice versa so you can not end your move under a skimmer

As coredump pointed out. This is your assumption, not RAW.

In practice, many players might consider the area under a skimmer off limits. But this is a house rule.

I'm confused. Are we dealing with a situation where the skimmer was on a two inch tall flying base (or however tall it would have to be to let the models fit underneath), so that the models could PHYSICALLY fit underneath the model or not?

In all cases, the models would have to be able to *fit* under the skimmer. At least in my view....

coredump wrote:In all cases, the models would have to be able to *fit* under the skimmer. At least in my view....

Ruleswise, that simply requires the skimmer to be on a flight stem a little over an inch and a quarter tall... the height of the model running underneath is irrelevant, since measurement between the models is from the base to the skimmers hull.

coredump wrote:But it doesn't say it works vice versa.
That depends on whether you decide that the skimmer's move was moving, or that the skimmer's move was available in the general "your side" move and it's move was to not to move.

Yes and we should also contemplate the ideal color for a 'move', whether people want a 'move' they can fit nasally, ...

I think that you should remember the other relevant rule here. The 1" rule.

No miniature may approach within 1" of an enemy model, determined by it's base area, or in the case of a skimmer, the outline of its hull. The only way models may approach within an inch is by charging.

This tidies up the problem nicely. You may not move under a skimmer as you may not move within an inch of it in the first place. Your opponent may not place his warriors under a skimmer either, but may position them so they can see under the skimmer. No matter what order you move the models in a skimmer cannot end the movement phase over the top of friendly or enemy models.

Zarahemna wrote:I think that you should remember the other relevant rule here. The 1" rule.

insaniak wrote:Ruleswise, that simply requires the skimmer to be on a flight stem a little over an inch and a quarter tall... the height of the model running underneath is irrelevant, since measurement between the models is from the base to the skimmers hull.

Zarahemna (the relevant bit) wrote:I think that you should remember the other relevant rule here. The 1" rule.

No miniature may approach within 1" of an enemy model, determined by it's base area, or in the case of a skimmer, the outline of its hull. The only way models may approach within an inch is by charging.

insaniak wrote:Ruleswise, that simply requires the skimmer to be on a flight stem a little over an inch and a quarter tall... the height of the model running underneath is irrelevant, since measurement between the models is from the base to the skimmers hull.

It seems a little odd that you would post the bit that seems to follow what you have stated and then completely ignore the rest of my comment. I have added a small emphasis in the quote above. Skimmers footprints are calculated by looking vertically down on them at the area they cover on the table with their hull. 40k is a two dimensional game with third-dimension elements represented by special rules such as those affecting freedom of movement for skimmers and jump troops, and tank shocking skimmers. This is why you measure from the base or footprint.

The height of a base is neither here nor there and in game terms serves only to represent whether or not a skimmer is immobilised, as discussed in the rules. The notion of altitude disappeared with pop-up attacks.

Sticky ground, IMO this all boils down to the viability of whether or not models could realistically be underneath the skimmer. I say no, simply because there are already rules in place for airborne vehicles. Skimmers, as their name implies, don't 'fly' per se, but hover several feet off the ground.

I don't know about you, but if a Grav Tank was moving over my position, i'd duck or get the hell out of the way, either way incapacitating my ability to shoot or otherwise act normally.

RAW is a little fuzzy and arguable on this one, but if people seriously start trying to imply RAI for models placed under a skimmer, then i'm breaking out my mallet of +1 STFU.

nostromo wrote:

coredump wrote:But it doesn't say it works vice versa.
That depends on whether you decide that the skimmer's move was moving, or that the skimmer's move was available in the general "your side" move and it's move was to not to move.

Yes and we should also contemplate the ideal color for a 'move', whether people want a 'move' they can fit nasally, ...

Nostromo, please be more careful in your quoting. I did not say all of that.

I honestly cannot fit any of my dark eldar warriors under any of my raiders using the flight stands provided by GW. And I think modeling them any taller so that they would fit would fall under "modelling for an advantage." At the end of the day, not sure if its allowed per say (pretty sure its not), but trying it makes you a sneaky, beardy git in my book.

I have added a small emphasis in the quote above

Yes, but you have made that up. The rules do not state that. The rules say to measure to the hull, not to the 'footprint' of the hull.

40k is a two dimensional game with third-dimension elements represented by special rules such as those affecting freedom of movement for skimmers and jump troops, and tank shocking skimmers.

Sorry, but you are making that up too.
When you measure range, you measure from the shooter to the target. If one of them is on the 4th floor of a ruin, that means you measure at an angle. The whole TLOS and terrain issues are to emphasize the 3D aspect of the game.

No miniature may approach within 1" of an enemy model,

Except, as my example illustrates, you can get within 1" if you are assaulting; even if you are not assaulting the skimmer.

you cant move under a skimmer...

________________________________________
From: John Spencer [mailto:John.Spencer@Games-Workshop.com] On Behalf Of askyourquestion
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 2:33 PM
To: John A. Williams
Subject: RE: skimmers

Hello,
No, you cannot move underneath a skimmer.

Thanks!

John Spencer
Customer Service Specialist

Please do not delete previous email threads as this will help us serve you better!

Games Workshop
Customer Service
6711 Baymeadow Drive Suite A
Glen Burnie MD 21060

Games Workshop Customer Service is open:
Monday through Friday 9:00 Am to 7:00 PM EST

Contact info:
1-888-248-2335
custserv@games-workshop.com

Or visit us online at:
www.games-workshop.com
________________________________________
From: John A. Williams [mailto:John_Williams@Jabil.com]
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 1:18 PM
To: askyourquestion
Subject: skimmers

Can you assault or move underneath a skimmer?

usernamesareannoying wrote:you cant move under a skimmer...

________________________________________
From: John Spencer [mailto:John.Spencer@Games-Workshop.com] On Behalf Of askyourquestion
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 2:33 PM
To: John A. Williams
Subject: RE: skimmers

Hello,
No, you cannot move underneath a skimmer.

Thanks!

John Spencer
Customer Service Specialist

Please do not delete previous email threads as this will help us serve you better!

Games Workshop
Customer Service
6711 Baymeadow Drive Suite A
Glen Burnie MD 21060

Games Workshop Customer Service is open:
Monday through Friday 9:00 Am to 7:00 PM EST

Contact info:
1-888-248-2335
custserv@games-workshop.com

Or visit us online at:
www.games-workshop.com
________________________________________
From: John A. Williams [mailto:John_Williams@Jabil.com]
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 1:18 PM
To: askyourquestion
Subject: skimmers

Can you assault or move underneath a skimmer?

Here's your hill of beans:



Now, we're even.

Eric

Zarahemna wrote:Skimmers footprints are calculated by looking vertically down on them at the area they cover on the table with their hull.

Which is fine... except that you're not prohibited from moving within a model's footprint. You're prohibited from moving within a certain distance of the model... which is determined in this case by measuring to the skimmers hull, not to its footprint.



To be fair here, I'm not actually advocating moving under the skimmer. I would possibly do it in a friendly game, if there was clearly room for the models to do so... I wouldn't even consider it in a pick-up game, as it's such a contentious issue.

But the rules do allow it, if the skimmer is modelled on a tall enough stem.

insaniak wrote:But the rules do allow it, if the skimmer is modelled on a tall enough stem.

not according to GW support they dont.

usernamesareannoying wrote: not according to GW support they dont.

Is it really necessary to go through that whole discussion again...?

insaniak wrote:

usernamesareannoying wrote: not according to GW support they dont.

Is it really necessary to go through that whole discussion again...?

are we calling email inaccurate already? i know you cant trust the phone boys but i thought the email team was being accepted?

i personally disagree with being able to move under a skimmer although i cant quote rules to back it up.

Pg 71, "Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either. Note that a skimmer must be set down on the table in place at the end of it's move- it cannot be left hovering in mid-air!"

and later

"However, if a moving skimmer starts or ends its move in difficult or dangerous terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test. A skimmer can even end its move over impassable terrain if it is possible to actually place the model on top of it, but if it does so it must take a dangerous terrain test."

The skimmer has to come down, and can no longer be said to be hovering over terrain. If it could, you'd be able to avoid taking those tests while over a bunch of woods, city ruins, etc. If you are therefor on the ground, or at least close enough to it to make those tests, then I wouldn't imagine you'd be able to setup underneath it. While RAW doesn't specifically state that you can't move your models under it, I'd equate it to trying to have your Space Marines try to crawl under a land raider.

usernamesareannoying wrote:are we calling email inaccurate already? i know you cant trust the phone boys but i thought the email team was being accepted?

Moz wrote:
1) Are your answers to be considered official? By official, I mean should that be the end of the discussion on this topic, as good as a GW published FAQ?

Our answers are our veteran hobby experience. All our answers are based of what we can find in the rulebook, and in cases where the rulebooks are totally unclear we will note that. We are not currently ‘in the loop’ for FAQs.

From the 'Testing the New Customer Service' thread.


The 'new' email is no different to the previous phone service, or the email service before that, or the snail-mail and phone service before that. It's an unofficial response from a gamer based on his own knowledge of the rules, not an official ruling.

i personally disagree with being able to move under a skimmer although i cant quote rules to back it up.

To be honest, I wouldn't do it in a game. I suspect that it's simply an issue that was never considered, and if it's ever FAQ'd they will most likely rule against it.

But without a rule specifically forbidding it, and general rules that allow it, it's perfectly legal.

For me, it came about because of a skimmer dropping a shooting unit. Then my gaunts charged them by running under the skimmer. Even discounting the base to hull distance.... you can get within 1" when charging.... so I went for it.

If we are using the 'actual height' of the skimmer to allow units to shoot underneath, I have no probelm using the actual height to allow units to run underneath