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i have noticed that you can give gaunts scuttlers and was thinking of taking 15 gaunts with scuttlers and devourers, supporting my very horde list.

What do you think of this all? scuttlers on gaunts?

My son and myself always put scuttlers on our fleshborer gaunts. We run 2 big units to form a meat shield for our genestealers with scuttlers also. So I'm all for it. We give them without number, so when they are shot up being the sheild, we recycle them.

could be an interesting combination with scuttling genestealers - could act as a scuttling meatshield for the stealers if necessary

at half the cost of a basic gaunt though, I'm not sure whether it's worth the points

Definately worth it to get my 'stealers into combat reletively unharmed from shooting, IMO. Unless I'm playing killpoints, I don't care how many times they die, I'll recycle them back into the game.

Use spinefists instead?
Cheaper and screens just as well. . .

i was thinking devoures for range and for sheer number of shots so my opponent cant just ignore them like with sninefists [i mostly play CSM and SM players, and they think that spine fists are a real joke, except in CC with 25 gaunts]

Devourer against Marine: 2x shots, 1 hits, .31 wound, .1 killed.

Fleshborer against Marine: 1x shot, .5 hits, .375 wound, .125 killed.

Bottom line, the Fleshborer is 25% more effective against a Marine. And costs a point less. That, alone, is enough I wouldn't take Devourers.

Even if it was better at shooting, I still wouldn't bother. I find that I rarely shoot with my Gaunts. I am always Fleeting them.

Gaunts don't do anything with their shooting. What they do is tie up in CC. The focus is always on getting there. The only way you're going to be shooting is if you end your movement phase clearly inside 6", with no danger of shooting yourself oot of charge range. That's not common enough.

The 18" range of the Devourer is no benefit. If you're 18" away, you should Fleet to set up a charge next turn.

If you're not using Fleet into combat, you're also likely to get counter-charged.

I gave my Gaunts Fleshborers, +1S and WoN. I can see replacing the +1S with Scuttlers. Taking a Devourer and Scuttlers is a 9 point Gaunt, and thus can't take WoN. Another strike against.

Uh, this is 5th edition. Sending Gaunts into combat to tie up a unit of Space Marines is throwing the brood away. First they'll lose the combat, and then they'll lose even more models because of No Retreat!, unless you've been clever enough to have them assault outside of Synapse, in which case they will not stick around because expecting them to win combat is really not a rational expectation. That's a Hormugaunt's job.

Keeping them at arms reach and shooting is a good idea though, and Devourers keep them out of template reach, and give them the ability to shoot while they retreat from units manoeuvering to assault them. Moreover, while on average the Devourers will do less damage, they have the potential to do much more damage if you get lucky.

All that said, I prefer running Termagants myself, using them as mobile cover for my Tyranid Warriors.

Incidentally, a Gaunt with a Fleshborer and Toxin Sacs is 9 points, and also cannot take Without Number... Perhaps Phryxis means to say that he takes Spinefists, Toxin Sacs, and Without Number.

Never liked spinefist as a weapon to be honest, i must prefer to have the "living ammunition" rule over twin-linked

WoN is good, but i already have that in my list of 2 broods of 25 termagaunts, so i have that covered [yes that maybe alot, but when facing vindicators and the like, worth it in the end]

my plan isnt to run these broods into combat, that is suicide as listed above, i run the broods as a shield, to cover my IC killing stealers and a large brood of hormagaunts [yes they arnt good for some, but for me they have won many a game and will continue to use them as such]. they also have great success with shooting.

So the devourer gaunts with scuttlers will help shoot down the enemy and add pressure to him, as i use 3 lictors that poop up where they are least wanted ^^

I might play test scuttlers and devourer gaunts

Uh, this is 5th edition. Sending Gaunts into combat to tie up a unit of Space Marines is throwing the brood away.

They're WoN? What else are you going to do with them?

Run the numbers?

I run my Gaunts in 12s right now, Fleshborers, +1s, WoN (yes, I realize that's cheating, I do stand corrected there, I made the change recently to fill points to 1750 and didn't notice). 12 Gaunts assault 10 Tactical Marines. They go simo.

24 Gaunt attacks, 12 hit, 6 wound, 2 dead Marines.

10 Marines attacks, 6.67 hit, 4.44 wounds, 3.7 dead Gaunts.

Fearless, lost combat by 1.7, so you end up losing another 1.4 there, for a total of 5.1 dead Gaunts.

They can easily keep the Marines tied up for 2 turns. Then, when they finally die, WoN, they're back. The Marines aren't.

Keeping them at arms reach and shooting is a good idea though, and Devourers keep them out of template reach, and give them the ability to shoot while they retreat from units manoeuvering to assault them.

Bad advice. Run the numbers again.

12 Gaunts with Devourers. Move to say, 14" away from 10x Tactical Marines.

24 shots, 12 hit, 3.67 wound, 1.22 dead Marines.

Marines move 6 closer and Rapid-Fire. Let's assume they have a Lascannon and Plasma Gun.

6.78 Marines, 13.56 Bolter shots, 9.04 hits, 6.03 dead Gaunts.

1 Plasma Gun, 2 shots, 1.33 hits, 1.11 more dead Gaunts.

Your approach kills 1.22 Marines, and costs 7.14 Gaunts. It also leaves the Marine player the option to ignore the Gaunts if it's more advantageous to him.

@Phryxis:
i know that maths hammering is great and all that but did you remember the living ammunition rule when it came to working out the wound? it seems too long from what im used to wounding, for 12 hits i get around 7 wounds, not 3.67, i get to reroll wounding and ifn i have toxin sacs [if i have the points] it makes it even easier.

i dont think ignoring them is really what the SM player wants to do, i'll be running 15 with devourers if i follow this idea, thats 30 shots and with toxin sacs to start off with, not really the best i dea to ignore. plus if i shoot first and they originally had 10 and now only have 6 left, im better off right

"Keeping them at arms reach and shooting is a good idea "

Truly a bad idea! Run them up as a screen for the 'stealers, shoot if possible or fleet to open a gap for the 'stealers to assault, then throw them shooting /assaulting at enemy units. Let them die, recycle, then throw them at the enemy again. Keep repeating til the end of the mission. That's their job, lead the way for bigger and badder bugs.

If you're playing objectives, place the objective as close to your table edge as possible. Then when the gaunts recycle, they can come up onto an objective to claim it.

Why would you want your gaunts to shoot? If you have tailored them for this purpose then chances are they cant have WoN. Thats the only reason to take gaunts.

As I mentioned before somewhere tyranids troops choices are lacking. Gaunts and hormies die to fast. Stealers were not made to sit on objectives. This in my opinion only leaves the WoN gaunts. It doesnt matter how many times they die, they can always make a run for the objectives late game. Shooty gaunts can't compete with WoN.

Gaunts with fleshborers still qualify for WoN (4pts + 2 pts scuttlers + 2 pts for fleshborers = 8 pts/ max for WoN). You have to take a ranged weapon with them. Make them shooty and WoN. Make them multi task.

did you remember the living ammunition rule when it came to working out the wound?

I believe I calculated it correctly. This is an S3 Gaunt, with a Devourer. That makes it S2. In order to wound a T4 Marine, he needs to roll a 6, with a reroll. I calculate the odds of that at .31.

i dont think ignoring them is really what the SM player wants to do

Maybe not. But if you assault him, he's locked in assault, and has no choice. If you shoot him, he still has the option to do something other than fight in assault.

I'm not saying he's always going to ignore them, I'm saying that when you shoot, and don't lock in assault, you leave him the option to ignore should it be more useful to him.

Phryxis:

You're running the numbers wrong. You should be calculating the probability of each possible outcome and graphing it. When you compare the graphs of the outcomes, you will see that charging a full squad of even Tactical Space Marines with Termagants is suicidal, wasteful, and in kill point games just plain stupid.

Furthermore, supposing that such a squad will have a Plasma Gun and a Lascannon is playing 4th edition. In the new addition you have to assume Missile Launcher and Flamethrower, and consider what would happen if they combat squad so that while one combat squad shoots up your brood, the other one can assault.

Without Number is good, but your Termagants will have to recycle from your own board edge, and will be at a numerical disadvantage: you'll have more over the course of the game, but where you have less from turn to turn then the broods are far more expensive and thus brittle, making it easier to clear them from objectives.

By all means assault your opponent's squads to lock them in combat until the heavy hitters can get there. But do it with Hormugaunts, since they're more mobile that Termagants and they can be reasonably expected to fight Marines to a standstill. Use your Termagants to screen your heavy hitters as they move up the board, hold objectives, and cut the enemy from falling back.

For troops, I like to use the following:

- Two units of Hormugaunts, to either run interference on front-line shooting units, or to remove screening units

- Two units of scuttling Termagants come in from the sides to attack second-line shooting units and used to hold objectives after the heavy hitters capture them.

- Two units of Termagants Without Number to screen the heavy hitters, and at the end of the game to hold the backfield objectives.

Nurglitch wrote:Phryxis:

You're running the numbers wrong. You should be calculating the probability of each possible outcome and graphing it. When you compare the graphs of the outcomes, you will see that charging a full squad of even Tactical Space Marines with Termagants is suicidal, wasteful, and in kill point games just plain stupid.

agreed, also i said that i had thought about putting toxin sacs on, yes they now are very expensive but the outcome is better.

Nurglitch wrote:
For troops, I like to use the following:

- Two units of Hormugaunts, to either run interference on front-line shooting units, or to remove screening units

- Two units of scuttling Termagants come in from the sides to attack second-line shooting units and used to hold objectives after the heavy hitters capture them.

- Two units of Termagants Without Number to screen the heavy hitters, and at the end of the game to hold the backfield objectives.

I realy like this, i going to use this as a base for my army, exc ept im going to remove one os the hornagaunts broods for an 8 nids brood of stealers with impact glands and toxin sacs [the guy i usually play against has abaddon and is impossible to kill except with this brood]

You should be calculating the probability of each possible outcome and graphing it.

Dude, come on with the sophistry.

I know how probabilities work, and I realize that the Mathhammer I'm using isn't a precise representation of the actual possible ootcomes of the trial. Yes, I know 1.22 Marines can't die, as they must die in whole models. But having 1.22 as a summary that's generally correct, is a lot more useful than a table, 24 rows long, with .00005 in 20 of them.

Your quibble is irrelevant, particularly as the number of trials increases. In this case, with 24 trials, it's not a major distinction.

What the simple calculations I ran give you is an estimate of the results. The fact that they're not as precise as they could be doesn't invalidate them. The fact that you think it does proves that you don't understand the methodology as clearly as you're trying to promote.

It's not rocket science. At all. Anybody with half a clue knows that Marines getting 1A each in CC against Gaunts are less effective than Marines getting 2 shooting attacks with an AP5 weapon. More than twice as effective.

I mean, what do you think is going to happen? The numbers I produced, which demonstrate how wrong your suggestion to hang back and shoot is, are suddenly going to totally reverse themselves when granularized down to possible ootcomes?

Seriously, make better arguments. Being pedantic is one thing, but being pedantic and wrong is really tiresome.

In the new addition you have to assume Missile Launcher and Flamethrower, and consider what would happen if they combat squad so that while one combat squad shoots up your brood, the other one can assault.

Wow. Spectacular. You've managed to adopt Stelek's "that's so 4th edition" argumentation style, but withoot any of the pesky "correctness" or "insight" that makes him tolerable.

See, I was going to run the numbers with a ML and Flamer (the base upgrades GW loves), but then I figured you'd complain, because those are much better weapons for killing Gaunts than a Lascannon and Plasma Gun. Also, a Flamer's effectiveness depends on formation, and is thus hard to Mathhammer. So I didn't use them. And you're still complaining.

I chose the 10 man Marine unit because it's a nice round number of commonplace statlines. It might be 10x Battle Sisters, or 8x Chaos Marines, or whatever. It's just a placeholder.

But do it with Hormugaunts, since they're more mobile that Termagants and they can be reasonably expected to fight Marines to a standstill.

No. Yes, they're more mobile. Barely. They have a 12" Assault move, which is wonderful and can surprise some players. Otherwise, same speed.

Let's do some more Mathhammer, to again show you how little attention you actually pay.

Against Marines:

Charging Spinegaunt (5 points): 2A, 1 hit, .33 wound, .11 dead, .0222 per point.
Charging Termagaunt (6 points): 2A, 1 hit, .33 wound, .11 dead, .0185 per point.
Charging Hormagaunt (12 points w/ Toxins): 3A, 1.5 hit, .75 wound, .25 dead, .0208 per point

Spinegaunts kill more Marines per point than Hormagaunts with Toxins do. Termagaunts are marginally worse than Hormagaunts, but have a shooting attack, which they will be able to use in some situations they charge, which will put them ahead in the net.

To make it simple, we could assume that the Termagaunts will get to shoot half the time. So...

Termagaunt shooting: .5 shots, .25 hit, .125 wound, .042 dead, .152 total dead, and .0255 per point.

Much better than a Hormagaunt, even when we assume they only can shoot half the time they assault.

And as far as them being more survivable, let's compare with equal points values, 6 point Termagaunts, 12 point Hormagaunts, assaulting 10x Marines.

20 Termagaunts (120 points): 40A, 20 hit, 6.67 wound, 2.2 dead Marines.
10 Hormagaunts (120 points): 30A, 15 hit, 7.5 wound, 2.5 dead Marines.

10x Marines (vs Termagaunts): 10A, 6.67 hit, 4.44 wounds, 3.7 dead Termagaunts.
10x Marines (vs Hormagaunts): 10A, 5 hit, 3.33 wounds, 2.8 dead Hormagaunts.

No Retreat for Termagaunts: Lost combat by 1.5, take another 1.25 dead, total of 4.95 dead.
No Retreat for Hormagaunts: Lost combat by .3, take another .25 dead, total of 3.05 dead.

And guess what? 4.95 is aboot 25% of 20, while 3 is 33% of 10. The Hormagaunts will have more of an edge on subsequent rounds, but they've also lost more models than the Termagaunts have, and I didn't include the Termagaunts shooting, which they might reasonably do.

PLUS, even tho the Hormagaunts have a great Assault move, they're exactly as vulnerable to shooting as Termagaunts are, but at twice the price. So in the example above, if the enemy has shooting enough to kill 10+ Gaunts, but fewer than 20, before they get to him, the Termagaunts are INFINITELY more effective in assault.

The simple fact is that GAUNTS BLOW. The only thing that makes them worth taking is WoN. This allows you to throw them away recklessly in some missions, knowing they'll be back to hold objectives near your table edge.

Since Hormagaunts can't take WoN they are not worth taking. If that's not clear enough, then compare any Hormagaunt you can build to the base 16 point Genestealer. Stealer is superior in almost all stats, no need for Synapse, plus Rending. No contest. A 12" Assault move isn't that valuable.

At this point, I'd have to suggest that the optimal Gaunt build is Spinefist, +1S and WoN. I wish I'd painted mine that way, but back then I hadn't played the army yet.

when i said shooty i meant devourers. S2 is scaring nobody, even with the rerolls. I personally go for the fleshborer and WoN. If you go for S3 devourer then sure its scarier, but it also means the unit cant get WoN and a turn of dedicated bolter fire will remove a troops choice permanently.

Lukus83 wrote:when i said shooty i meant devourers. S2 is scaring nobody, even with the rerolls. I personally go for the fleshborer and WoN. If you go for S3 devourer then sure its scarier, but it also means the unit cant get WoN and a turn of dedicated bolter fire will remove a troops choice permanently.

That maybe true but i am running 2 broods of 25 at him already with fleshbores and they are only 12" range, and a flyrant dakka fex, will he shoot at the 15 devoureragaunts? or the 2 25 broods or the tyrant? or the DSing lictors?

Im trying to the force my opponent to make forced errors but flooding him with troops everywhere

he will probably shoot the devourer gaunts with small arms fire, knowing that once they are gone they really are and the heavy stuff at the tyrant. My casual opponent rarely shoots my gaunts since all they are good for is dying and he knows they will be right back. A good player will take them out late game to ensure they cant make a run when they come back on to take an objective or 2 thats far away thus giving him time to deal with the devourer gaunts first.

Im trying to the force my opponent to make forced errors but flooding him with troops everywhere

The problem is that they're bad troops. Gaunts are not good models. Compare them to Orks if you need convincing.

This was a learning process for me as well in my early games with Tyranids. I kept hatching plans where Gaunts would kill a unit and then... But there's no "and then." Gaunts suck, they never kill anything, they don't threaten anything.

Upgrading them just makes them less points efficient.

The only things Gaunts can do is tie up strong shooting units and hold objectives. Those two tasks demand cheap Gaunts and WoN.

The real punch of a Tyranid list comes from Carnifexes, Tyrants and Genestealers.

Raveners and Warriors might do some good for you, but Fexes and Stealers are proven.

Don't take Lictors. They really suck for the points.

I agree with most of what Phryxis says...however I do go out of my way to give my gaunts fleshborers. I find it keeps them a tad more effective.

Also I really like lictors with outflanking stealers. If you can time it well and get some good positioning you can really cut through some tough units.

Sorry, a bit off topic that last bit.

Phryxis:

You're missing my point. I said you should graph it, not make a table. A visual representation showing the likelihood of each possible outcome is far more useful than showing the most likely outcome, particularly when that outcome is so far abstracted from what happens on the board. What is likely to happen is useless, considered alone and from a strategic standpoint, because what is likely to happen isn't always what happens. You need to consider what will always happen, and that means considering the probability of each possiblity. Fortunately in Warhammer those possibilities compose quite a small set of integers corresponding to the number of casualties caused in any particular action.

If you graph the distribution of the outcomes, you will see that Gaunts in combat are likely to lose and by a good margin, particularly when they are over-inflated like the Spinegaunts you describe. At least when they are shooting they are providing a valuable cover to more effective Tyranids, and they don't face the double-down risk of extermination that close combat forces via either retreating or No Retreat!

Graphing each possibility by its likelihood will not only give you the context to adequately make strategic decisions about disposing of your Gaunts in the game, but it will enable you to calculate the effect of template weapons and blast weapons quite easily by calculating the likelihood of maximum hits vs minimum or zero hits.

It will, perhaps, even enable you to say something more insightful and intelligent in your conclusion than "GAUNTS BLOW".

I said you should graph it, not make a table.

Yeah, and a graph is a visual representation of a table. I know exactly what you're talking aboot, and while it's certainly appealing to have a 100% accurate representation of the possible results, presented in a concise, simple way, it's not possible.

It's a lot easier to understand "1.22" than it is to understand a graph of 52 different values, the aggregate of which happens to be 1.22.

What is likely to happen is useless, considered alone and from a strategic standpoint, because what is likely to happen isn't always what happens.

Wrong. Completely and totally wrong.

Let's say I've got two basketball players. One averages 20.3 points per game, and one averages 1.22 points per game. Which one should I play?

Well, in your world, I just have NO IDEA, because you can't score .3 points in a game of basketball. What a useless stat! I mean, the guy that averages 20.3 could injure himself on the first posession of the game, and never play basketball again! Oh, you just can't tell at all!

Seriously, clue up. Mathhammer lets us know who's better at what jobs. It lets us know how a unit's abilities are best spent against another unit. It lets us know which builds are most points efficient for which roles. It tells us a TON of things both in listbuilding an in game.

If you graph the distribution of the outcomes, you will see that Gaunts in combat are likely to lose and by a good margin

Why do you persist? Do you think that if you use enough prob/stats terms that sound important, you'll suddenly stop being totally wrong?

The simple Mathhammer values are a synopsis of what you're talking aboot. Charting/graphing these things exactly won't change the fact that Spinegaunts are better, point for point, than +1S Hormagaunts at killing Marines. Graph it, chart it, whatever. Doesn't change the facts.

particularly when they are over-inflated like the Spinegaunts you describe

What does this even mean? What do you even think you're saying?

It will, perhaps, even enable you to say something more insightful and intelligent in your conclusion than "GAUNTS BLOW".

What I wouldn't give for you to have a sudden epiphany and realize how your actual intellect stacks up compared to the puffed up pedant you play online.

Dude, let me be honest with you: you have no clue what you're saying. I've seen other people beating you up in these forums, and I never really understood their contempt. I get it now.

You make vague, poorly understood assertions, sprinkled with words you think are impressive, and then reach a ridiculous conclusion. I provide mathematical proof for what I'm saying, completely debunk all your assertions, and you pretend all I've said is "Gaunts blow." You even capitalized it, to make me look more like a clod.

I'm gonna make this very simple for you: tell me how a complete graph of expected results would lead to a different conclusion than the sorts of averages I'm providing. Give me an in game situation where that would occur.

I agree that expecting your gaunts to do anything other than die will result in a letdown. For this reason I keep them cheap with just the spinefist.

I'm actually not a fan of WoN and would rather have more gaunts for the points, but others seem to really like it.

That doesn't mean gaunts aren't a great unit, but they are really just mobile cover for you Tyrants (and Guard) and Genestealers. They work to keep the units that will win you the game alive. If they are charging though, they aren't doing their job of taking casualties. If you make them more expensive in order to shoot, then there are fewer of them to die (bad) or fewer "real" units in the tyranid army.

One other use for gaunts is to deny area from your opponent. Shooting TMCs are vulnerable to assault, and keeping a lot of gaunts around them will stop your TMCs from being assaulted. If your opponent assaults the gaunts, they will either be tied up for a few turns, or left open to shooting in the next turn depending on the size of the gaunt squad. Units of 12 or below will die instantly, while full units of 32 will take a few rounds to wipe out (heavily dependent on what unit assaulted them).

I'm actually not a fan of WoN and would rather have more gaunts for the points, but others seem to really like it.

Give it a try in 5th, if you haven't.

I was skeptical at first too, but the missions in 5th really love it. Or, at least, half of them do. In KP missions, it's a bit of a liability, but in any objective based mission it's fantastic.

That doesn't mean gaunts aren't a great unit

Well, I'd say it does mean they aren't a great unit. But I'd also say, as you do, that they're necessary. They're necessary, much as the fluff describes, to go screen the better models, or to protect other models by dying in CC against enemy shooting models.

Shooting TMCs are vulnerable to assault, and keeping a lot of gaunts around them will stop your TMCs from being assaulted.

Exactly true. Even when they're not providing screening (which they can't for a TMC), they can still fill the ground around and in front of the TMC, letting it do its job shooting down enemies, and stay clear of CC.

Units of 12 or below will die instantly, while full units of 32 will take a few rounds to wipe out.

I run mine in 12-14 currently. I don't entirely agree that they die instantly. They're certainly extremely fragile, but with Synapse in range, they'll stay in the fight to the last, which makes them more durable than their numbers suggest.

That said, if you're not going to WoN, then the big squads are better. When you do play WoN, smaller squads get back on the table faster. Bad for KP missions, great otherwise.

yes they are good at screening shooty fexs and the like but i dont use that style of play, i run CC nids and try to minimulize on the shooting. so my gaunts are basiclly the only shooting i have

ok this is the best way to use gaunts in 5th.

they are cheap, fearless screening units and nothing more. it doenst matter if they die. it doesnt matter if they tarpit a unit for infinity. they only thing they are good at is screening your stuff that is actually good at killing. if i have scuttling genestealers behind scuttling gaunts it means i can save 4pts per model on EC, which means i can have more stealers. if i have combat or shooty warriors behind gaunts, it means i can save 4pts per model on EC, which means i have have more warriors.

stop thinking that things have to make their points back, they dont. stuff doesnt have to kill a lot of enemy stuff to be useful, it has to be good at a job to be useful. for nids there is nothing better for keeping your killy stuff alive then gaunts. dont give them better guns, their shooting sucks anyway. dont give them without number, by the time they have all died and come back on they wont be able to have any more significant impact on the game. dont give them EC, they are fodder that is meant to die and if your opponent is shooting your gaunts he isnt shooting your killy stuff.

keep them cheap, take them in maximum units and run them ahead of your army.

Er...I played a game last night. My WoN gaunts got me a draw instead of a loss. Scouts moved in on my home objective after a bunch of marines had devastated my flank with shooting. Last turn, they came on and shot them down (16 gaunts).

No offense Regwon but there are a couple of ways to run gaunts. Yeah 1 way is cheap screens, but another way is to keep them coming back and
A. take objectives
B. contest enemy objectives

In my mind WoN is a lifesaver. Sure I could do without it sometimes, but when all my troops choices have been taken out by someone who knows what they're doing (and lets face it, nid troops choices arent hard to take out), I'm real glad I have it.