Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, the 'classic' CSM tournament power-combo is Slaaneshi Lash-Princes running alonside melta/powerfist toting plague marines supported by oblits.

However, I just....can't...do...it
For those of you who (like me) are old enough to remember Realm of Chaos (or hell, for that matter the last CSM codex ), I hope you'll sympathise with a gruff old fluff-bunny like me and appreciate why I want to do a mono-god list.

What I don't know is whether it can be made to work.

So what are the pros and cons of pure Thousand Sons? What units are good choices for them? And what tactics should they employ?

1KSons got a bloody beating in 5th. their 2 major abilites, +4 inv save and AP3 bolters, became useless with the proliferation of cover saves. why pay 23pts per model for something you get for free and something else that is almost the same as a bolter. i have come to the conclusion that GW hate tzneetch, so they get no love at all. here's a breakdown of them.

Pros:
Fearless
Forceweapon
Reasonable anti-tank (bolt of change)

Cons
Primary abilities worthless in 5th
Slow
Terrible in combat
No special weapons
No powerfists
Far too expensive
Far too expensive
Far too expensive

i really honestly suggest you dont take a pure 1KSon army, you wont enjoy playing with them.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:So, the 'classic' CSM tournament power-combo is Slaaneshi Lash-Princes running alonside melta/powerfist toting plague marines supported by oblits.

However, I just....can't...do...it
For those of you who (like me) are old enough to remember Realm of Chaos (or hell, for that matter the last CSM codex ), I hope you'll sympathise with a gruff old fluff-bunny like me and appreciate why I want to do a mono-god list.

What I don't know is whether it can be made to work.

So what are the pros and cons of pure Thousand Sons? What units are good choices for them? And what tactics should they employ?

It can be semi competitive. In a friendly environment, you will do fine. I am running a pure death guard list currently and using the 3.5 edition (last edition) restrictions to the death guard. The 3.5 cult restrictions were pretty spot on for fluff, with the death guard, and still allow for a good list. So little mech but lots of foot sloggers for me.

Most loyalist marines rely on their 3+ save and BS of 4. Now you are giving them a 4+ save at best. Oh how marines would cry when berserkers with chain axes in the old codex would break their lines. Now you are doing it from afar.

Against a lash list, you have a better chance then most seeing as you have the 4+ invulnerable against the blast templates that would screw most other players that are now being dragged from cover. Your marines are the 2nd toughest troop choice in the CSM codex and you don't have to fear monstrous creatures (out of synapse). You also almost nullify powerfists / power weapons crashing into your ranks with the 4+ save.

Cult lists have a chance, just need to play to their strengths:
Great anti-MEQ fire
Tough basic troops

Weakness:
Crappy anti tank

The anti-tank problem is easily solved by a trio of Possessed Land Raiders to shuttle the squads of Thousand Suns around in. Add Combi-Flamethrowers or Havoc Launchers for flavour.

I'd suggest taking Warptime or Gift of Chaos for your Aspiring Sorcerers, because Warptime will slightly enhance their bolt pistol, but more importantly will give them some kick in close combat, while the Mark of Tzeentch lets them combine it with using a Force Weapon. If you really want shooting, or less horribly expensive apprentices, then go for the Doombolt, to complement the bolters.

Thousand Sons are probably decent against MEQ but not much else. Orks have a 6+ save so the better AP on the Sons doesn't matter--they weren't getting a save in the first place.

Remember that the Thousand Suns are Slow and Purposeful. That means they can walk away from the Orks and still fire at 24" range. Moreover, that rule mean that they can still rapid fire their bolters before charging, and unlike 4th edition they will get a +1A for the assault. The 4+ Invulnerable save will help against Power Klaws.

Regwon wrote:1KSons got a bloody beating in 5th. their 2 major abilites, +4 inv save and AP3 bolters, became useless with the proliferation of cover saves. why pay 23pts per model for something you get for free and something else that is almost the same as a bolter. i have come to the conclusion that GW hate tzneetch, so they get no love at all. here's a breakdown of them.

Pros:
Fearless
Forceweapon
Reasonable anti-tank (bolt of change)

Cons
Primary abilities worthless in 5th
Slow
Terrible in combat
No special weapons
No powerfists
<snip>

i really honestly suggest you dont take a pure 1KSon army, you wont enjoy playing with them.

First, I don't think it's fair to say he won't enjoy playing them. Not unless you are friends with him off of Dakka and know his likes/dislikes without fail. Even then, you don't know what something *new* will do for someone.

Also, I think your summary is a bit off base.

Don't get me wrong... I'm not a big fan of Cult troops, but that is due to the cost.

I think you're underestimating what those T-Sons can do.

First off, they can sit out in the open and weather incoming fire as well as any comparable unit that's holed up in a building. For objective based games, that is simply huge.
Second... they have AP3 bolters! Yeah, your SM army can keep a 4+ Cover save by staying in the building. That does two things, however. First, it reduces your failed saves from 1/3 to 1/2. I'll take it! Secondly, though... and this is huge... it means that your Power Armored (or worse) opponent cannot simply charge out into the open without the fear (and likelyhood) of being mowed down in his tracks.
I just played a game Saturday that had 5 objectives. Four were in the open and one was in (4+ Cover) woods. A few well placed units of T-Sons would have had an impressive ring of death on that field.

So, being out in the open means you can easily be seen? Fine. Shoot me. If I fail, I don't run... even down to the last man.

Now, you're right about special weapons and powerfists. Those are an important part of the game (IMO). See my notes to the Op later for that.

Also, Nurglitch is right about the Warptime. That is a great power and will add that much more "oomph" to the unit. Forget the rerolled shots... If you end up with him as the last man of the unit, he still claims and gets to reroll all his saves as the enemy tries to shoot him off of the objective.

@the OP.

How "fluff-bunny" are you trying to be? Are you refusing to take ANY Infantry unit that isn't T-Sons?
Will you take CSM with an Icon of Tzeentch? What about Daemon Princes with an Icon of Tzeentch? Obliterators?
Bikers with an Icon of Tzeentch?

What are your limits on non T-Sons units?

Rhinos are a nice addition to T-Sons, as it gets you where you want to be (24" away) FAR faster. You can also add shooty weaponry onto the Rhinos to make them a threat, as well.

Oblits are important to a T-Sons heavy army, IMO, for the heavy weapons that T-Sons don't have. Not Tzeentchy enough for you? Paint 'em blue. LOL

CSM with IoT are a nice addition for meltas, flamers, H Bolters, etc. and P-Fists, all of which T-Sons need (again, IMO).
A pair of Tzeentch DP's with wings & warptime, advancing together, are a threatening obstacle to any force. In KP missions, I've never failed to get their kill points or more for them (only once did I get their KP back, but no more... because I missed the psychic test on one and got shot by 3 10-strong units of Sternguard AP3 bolters - Even that didn't kill him. It took a 10-strong Tac squad, too. The other one went on to claim 2 KP for himself. Every other game has gotten 4 - 6 KP in return). Add in Wind of Chaos for some rerollable template love!

Bikers - or even Raptors, while not my favorite units, will add in some speed that you don't have with T-Son heavy armies, too. Especially for P-Fists and heavy hitting ranged weapons, like Plas and Meltas. Put an IoT on them and, while not fluff-bunny, will give you the ability to get places fast (heck, the bikes would be carrying 3+A/3+C/5+I saves around with them, depending on what you did with 'em), while sticking with the Tzeentchian theme.

Hmmm... This has my mind working... I'm going to have to put together an all Tzeentch force (maybe even without the Oblits... but no promises) and see how it fares.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:Also, Nurglitch is right about the Warptime. That is a great power and will add that much more "oomph" to the unit. Forget the rerolled shots... If you end up with him as the last man of the unit, he still claims and gets to reroll all his saves as the enemy tries to shoot him off of the objective.

Uh, what? Warptime (unfortunately) does not enable a Sorcerer to re-roll his saves. It just allows him to re-roll to-hit and to-wound rolls for that player turn.

Speaking of HQ units, Ahriman can do vile and unspeakable things to horde units if he gets a Warptime off on himself. The Black Staff would then allow him to cast some combination of Bolt of Change, Doombolt, and Wind of Chaos. He can even, according to the Chaos Space Marine FAQ, cast Gift of Chaos three times...

Ahriman would be an excellent choice, especially against hordes or gunlines. I have a friend who uses him a lot, and once, he zipped him into the middle of a Tau gunline in a Land Raider with some CC Chosen and cast Gift of Chaos three times, creating three Spawn in the middle of the gunline. Whee!

So a Tsons army could have uses for Chaos Spawn against hordes/gunlines.

The only problem with Ahriman is having enough Spawn models to handle his prodigious Gift.

Thousand sons OWN MEQ. I have seen this first hand. They have serious trouble with horde or some ultra shooty simply beacuse they are no tougher against massed fire than regular marines. They need support, so to support them, take 9 obliterators, and give them all rhinos to run around it.

Is it going to be an all 1000 sons list, a pure Tzeentch list, or undivided and mark of Tzeentch? I think that pure thousand sons would be hard, but an undivided and mark of Tzeentch list could work well. Thousand sons, obliterators, and chosen with mark of Tzeentch could work well.

How about:

Deamon Prince, mark of Tzeentch, warptime, wings 175

7 chosen, icon of Tzeentch, 2 melta guns, powerfist 211

6 chosen, icon of Tzeentch, 2 melta guns, powerfist 193

9 1000Sons plus Sorcerer, doombolt, meltabombs, personal icon 287
Rhino w possession 55

9 1000Sons plus Sorcerer, doombolt, meltabombs, personal icon 287
Rhino w possession 55

9 1000Sons plus Sorcerer, doombolt, meltabombs, personal icon 287

2 obliterators 150

2 obliterators 150

2 obliterators 150

everything has an invul save, the deamon prince is a close combat monster, the 2 units of chosen can out flank or infiltrate, and are great at clost combat or for tank hunting, you can deep strike the oblits off the 1000 sons or the chosen, deepending where you need them. Any thoughts?

Wow, thanks for all the feedback guys

I had hoped for pure TSons but the more I look at the codex the less sure I am it could work.

As a core I'm going to go for 3x squads of 9 (sorc + 8 rubrics) and a winged DP with warptime - so far so fluffy but this has just eaten up over 1000pts of a 1500pt army and I'm not sure what to add next.

A second DP is tempting but would give me a low model count. Horrors would definately get in if you could still take them (stupid gak GW dev team..).

Would Terminators work? With IoT they get a 2+/4++ save and DS with lots of cool weapon options. They are cheaper than oblits, have a better invul save and with combi-meltas could still provide much needed anti-tank.

Nurglitch wrote:The only problem with Ahriman is having enough Spawn models to handle his prodigious Gift.

You, sir, are my new sig!

Simple answer: NO. They cant be made very well for competative play.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:Wow, thanks for all the feedback guys

I had hoped for pure TSons but the more I look at the codex the less sure I am it could work.

As a core I'm going to go for 3x squads of 9 (sorc + 8 rubrics) and a winged DP with warptime - so far so fluffy but this has just eaten up over 1000pts of a 1500pt army and I'm not sure what to add next.

A second DP is tempting but would give me a low model count. Horrors would definately get in if you could still take them (stupid gak GW dev team..).

Would Terminators work? With IoT they get a 2+/4++ save and DS with lots of cool weapon options. They are cheaper than oblits, have a better invul save and with combi-meltas could still provide much needed anti-tank.

How about the obvious other HQ? Chaos Sorceror with MoT.

I am very much in your same boat- only wanting to use cult troops. The addition of the terminators is a great idea and one I plan on doing with my death guard.

Chosen, as someone mentioned, is also not a bad idea. You could do a recently converted feel to them. An easy way to get some flanking melta guns while your big boys walk across the table murdering everything.
Like a bunch of another chapter going rogue and following the winding path of Tzeentch. My Nurgle chosen are a bunch of ultramarine / plague marine conversions. The idea being Nurgle reaching out to them and in their weakness "Come with me if you want to live."

Nurglitch wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:Also, Nurglitch is right about the Warptime. That is a great power and will add that much more "oomph" to the unit. Forget the rerolled shots... If you end up with him as the last man of the unit, he still claims and gets to reroll all his saves as the enemy tries to shoot him off of the objective.

Uh, what? Warptime (unfortunately) does not enable a Sorcerer to re-roll his saves. It just allows him to re-roll to-hit and to-wound rolls for that player turn.

Shock.
and.
horror.


Now, I have to double check everything in the codex. My group has been playing it wrong the whold damned time?
Not to big a surprise for ME to make that error, considering the status of my short & long term memory... but it's an unusual mistake for the rest of my group.

Glad that was mentioned BEFORE the tourney next weekend.

Eric

I'm starting work on my 1ksons army now. Here's my plan:

Ahriman - 250

Thousand Sons x8 + Sorceror w/doombolt -314
Rhino, x-tra armor, combi-melta

Thousand Sons x8 + Sorceror w/doombolt -314
Rhino, x-tra armor, combi-melta

Chaos Marines x9 (1 melta, 1 flamer) -260
+ Champion w/power weapon & meltabombs
Rhino, x-tra armor, combi-melta

Defiler w/ 2x CCW - 150

Predator w/ TLLC (no sponsons) - 105

Havocs x5 (2 Heavy Bolters) - 105

Total: 1498 points, 39 models (inc. 5 vehicles)

At 1850 I'll add some Terminators with combi-meltas and a bike squad. Obliterators are probably a more competitive support choice than the stuff I took, and Ahriman is way overpriced but that's the price you pay for fluff.

Tzeentch lists are one of the few where squads of lesser daemons might actually be useful. They add cheap numbers and large amounts of attacks, plus decent mobility, something that the normal Thousand Sons lack. The only thing left is to shore up your anti-tank, which can be done with Oblits and Predators.

Played 1K sons last night against a guy who's been playing them since Jesus was a teenager. I was playing drop guard for the first time; I've also seen him play MEQ chaos space marines.

- If you don't get wiped, you do quite well at kill point missions. Last night at 1500 points, he had seven kps; I had conceded loss for the outset with my twenty four.

- 1K sons bolters chew through most everything - you're going to make Gulliman and his knockoffs seek out cover. You're also always treated as stationary, which means your bolters might as well be assault weapons. (Downside is you roll 2d6 a lot for your blokes to move).

- 4+ invulnerable saves are, well, downright annoying. (AP 1-3 weapons are supposed to keel you, Spess Marien).

- AP 3 bolters aren't any cooler than the garden variety at killing most armies - but as mentioned before you kill marines good.

I think you should drop the extra armour and use daemonic possession or maybe havoc launchers. Maybe add some additional hvy bolters or missle launchers to your havocs squad or sponsons to your predator.

bryantsbears wrote:- AP 3 bolters aren't any cooler than the garden variety at killing most armies - but as mentioned before you kill marines good.

They also do wonderful things to T6-7 Monstrous Creatures en masse, especially those with little to no invulnerable saves(Carnis, Tyrants, Trygons).

At 1500pts I've had some success with this list:

HQ
1 Chaos Lord w/ daemon weapon, mark of tzeentch

Troops
8 Thousand Sons
1 Sorcerer w/ doom bolt

8 Thousand Sons
1 Sorcerer w/ doom bolt

8 Thousand Sons
1 Sorcerer w/ doom bolt

Heavy Support
1 Land Raider
1 Land Raider
1 Vindicator w/ possession

It's most definitely a "pure' thousand sons list. And you haven't seen pain until you've seen a unit of sons dump out of a land raider, rapid fire, and then assault.

A Chaos Lord with the Mark of Tzeentch and a Deathscreamer is often under-estimated. He can get as nearly as many attacks as a Chaos Lord with a Mark of Khorne and a Bloodfeeder thanks to the shooting ability of his Daemon Weapon, he's more resistant to his Daemon Weapon backfiring, and getting those attacks is slightly more reliable.

There are actually a lot of cool things you can do with Ksons.

First off, people complain about AP3 sucking now that everything has cover, but I've found a lash usually fixes this well. All you have to do is lash someone out of cover and the blast them with your AP3 bolters.

I've also had some good luck running a squad of Bikers with 2 Tzeentch lords with daemon weapons. I know bikes!!! The Blasphemy!!! But really you are talking about 2D6 AP3 shots, then they charge with another 2D6 +8 S4 power weapon attacks. Not to mention the squad packs 2 plasma guns, a powerfist, and summons in packs of daemons. They sport a 5+I save or a 3+I if they boost. Nontraditional, but tends to surprize the crap out of people.

Ahriman was disgusting when he first came out but he was tempered with the CSM FAQ. Teh important thing sto remember is that this army is an alpha strike army. They do there damage early and hard and then bog for the rest of the game.

K son termies aren't a bad choice either, and I've had a lot of success with possessed. A fellow K son player actually did really quite well in 'Ard boyz, just missing going to Baltimore.

So can they be competitive sure. They are actually a fairly good one for one swap with Plague marines, and better in a lot of situations.

Finally, a shout out for Tzeentch possed. With a good roll they are digusting. Even wth a bad roll they are not bad, the troublesome part is that they usually are competing points with another k son squad.

Finally, consider a land raider and lesser daemons. They add a lot more scoring bodies and some much needed hth punch against mooks.

Pete