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What do you guys think is a fluffy/comp-friendly army/build yet still competitive? What army/build is MOST fluffy/comp-friendly while still being MOST competitive?

Horde Orks and almost any Sisters build with enough troops comes to mind.

There must be others out there. Thoughts?

EC builds with dual lash.

Typeline wrote:EC builds with dual lash.

Hmm maybe I should change that to comp-friendly? Some people see even one lash and trash the list...

Nobody should be marking down comp scores because you take a perfectly legal piece of kit - particularly in the army that (fluff-wise) is supposed to have it.

That's just saying you should make a really pathetic list to show how nice you are...

But some examples for you:

Sisters - mech or horde both work.
Marines - whitescars, crimson fists, salamanders, raven guard (just pick the appropriate special character and build around them)
Daemons - epidimius/nurgle list
CSM - world eaters (land raider/berserker assault combo), emperors children (dual lash), death guard (without typhus ), iron warriors (oblit spam)
Eldar - ulthwe (eldrad/avatar plus guardians or maugan-ra plus dark reaper spam both work), alaitoc (pathfinder spam)
Orks - death skulls (loota spam), goffs (infantry horde), evil suns (biker spam)

Any nid list lol, lacks fluff unless you make it yourself [doing that now].

Nobody should be marking down comp scores because you take a perfectly legal piece of kit - particularly in the army that (fluff-wise) is supposed to have it.

Indeed, GW never gave credits to fluffy lists that tend to loose all games. I completely stay away from those lists.

its fun fielding fluff armies

Squig_herder wrote:its fun fielding fluff armies

Yeah, I agree. But if you loose all the time its not funny.

Loota Spam = Deathskulls.
Nob Bikers = Evil Suns
Horde = Generic Ork Fluff

Plague Marines = Deathgaurd.

There's tonnes of them.

Indeed. Fluffy does not mean 'this list will automatically lose'. When I hear the word 'cheesey' thrown around, it is most commonly intended to mean 'antonymn of fluffy' but in actual use it means 'I hate your army because I lost to it and don't think I can beat it'.

Many very competitive lists are also very fluffy.

Emperor's Children
Deathguard
Snakebite Orks
Goff Orks
Badmoonz Orks
Kabal of the Black Heart Dark Eldar
Iyanden Eldar
Saim Hann Eldar
Ultramarines (SM codex is general enough to make any chapter competitive)
Black Templar
Salamanders

mech sisters
jetbike council eldar (ulthwe)

Chimera_Calvin wrote:
death guard (without typhus ),

Why without Typhus? He's pretty good, while still being fluffy.

Though said fluff makes no sense when the Mighty Chosen of Nurgle, Host of the Destroyer Hive, has LESS toughness than the new Chaplain Cassius, because he has "super bionics"...

I don't think it's a killer list, but Tactical squads in transports plus predators, a captain, a command squad and a dreadnought is a pretty good list now.

Horde Orks is strong now.

I took second at an Ard boys regional with a pretty fluffy bieltan list (aspects in serpents, fire prisms).

Of course, these are all strong builds that happen to also be fluffy. It gets harder for those lists without excellent troops, or who rely on non-troops for many things (tau and nids come to mind here, as do Necrons to an extent). Tau and particular are tough to get a bead on since it's clear that they pick forces based on what will be useful, and don't like to waste manpower on lost causes.

Typhus would be absolutely great, if he was immune to ID.
Without that he's powerfist bait.

The guy's got a combination Force Weapon and Nurgle Daemon Weapon for 1D6+4 attacks on the charge. He eats units with Power Fists.

Nurglitch wrote:The guy's got a combination Force Weapon and Nurgle Daemon Weapon for 1D6+4 attacks on the charge. He eats units with Power Fists.

Plus his attacks are poisoned... yay re-rolls...

Until he rolls a one and can't swing at all.

Or fails to hit enough on threes.

or fails to wound enough on fours (even with a re-roll).

Or there are simply enough bodies to absorb the damage.

Then the fist goes off with a nearly third chance of instant snuffing him.

Living in mortal fear of the hidden fist isn't always wise, but its' a very real threat for any T4 IC.

Running him with an escort is the smart play, but at that point the enemy is going to devote some resources to wiping them out.

For the record, while I wouldn't say dual lash is particularly unfluffy, I would say two daemon princes goes against the theme of "rare and powerful ascended mortal who has an unquenchable thirst for power." Much like taking two warbosses.
Prince and sorceror is far fluffier.

Polonius:

Obviously he's not zero risk. After all, all units are prey to the risk of failing to hit enough (Kharn most of all!), failing to wound enough, and simply not killing enough. But why live in fear of the unlikely?

After all, he can soften the enemy up with a Wind of Chaos or a Nurgle's Rot prior to charging, and as you say he's not going to go it alone. I think he's more likely to survive a Power Fist than the odds of a Power Fist hitting, wounding, and defeating his Invulnerable save suggest.

Every single game I've run him in, he's died to something S8 or above.
I do run him with an escort, and I play smart. But it doesn't take a smart opponent to gun down the escort and then either gun down the big man himself or fist him in his pretty pretty face.
Ork mobs have no problem absorbing the causulties, terminators have invunerable saves, even marine squads can survive if you're even a little bit unlucky.
All in all, he's fun and I'll keep using him, but I'm under no illusions that a warptime nurgle daemon prince with wings wouldn't be better for the same job.

So what do you have escorting him? How are you playing that counts as "smart". What else do you have in your army? What missions were you playing? Maybe start a thread in th Tactics forum on this?

Terminators. And in one mission plague marines.
Smart? Attempt to keep him away from things that could pop him until I'd wittled them down enough or I was forced to engage by the mission.

Nurglitch wrote:Polonius:

Obviously he's not zero risk. After all, all units are prey to the risk of failing to hit enough (Kharn most of all!), failing to wound enough, and simply not killing enough. But why live in fear of the unlikely?

After all, he can soften the enemy up with a Wind of Chaos or a Nurgle's Rot prior to charging, and as you say he's not going to go it alone. I think he's more likely to survive a Power Fist than the odds of a Power Fist hitting, wounding, and defeating his Invulnerable save suggest.

I really have to disagree. By the time you buy Typhus, a retinue and a landraider transport you have a hugely expensive investment. Yes, that squad can charge and wipe out a 10 man tac squad. It then is the target for every gun in the army. Expensive HQ's with exploitable weaknesses are a liability. If I send an assault squad and a tactical squad into your retinue, I can probalby bet at least one, if not two fists on Typhus. You probably won't get to strike down both units, and one or both fists go off. Suddenly you're looking at some scary odds when the fist swings.

It's a risk that all characters not Eternal Warrior share, but most don't cost what Typhus costs. He can be used smartly, but a cheaper HQ choice would do almost as well while allowing more points for other units.

5th edition isn't about winning points back anymore, but a HtH character should be judged by ability, pound for pound, with likely targets, and typhus simply costs too much for too little.

So leave out the Land Raider and give him a bargain basement 120pt retinue of four Terminators. Deep Strike them in where he can use Wind of Chaos to best effect, and pile in afterwards. If he's a target for every gun in the enemy army after smearing a unit in an assault, then I don't think the problem is Typhus. He's just part of an army that you should be co-ordinating, and part of that is keeping up the pressure with your other units so that your opponent faces a no-win choice on what to shoot.

Certainly Typhus is expensive. After all, he's a Chaos Sorcerer with the Mark of Nurgle, two Psychic Powers, a Daemon Weapon, and Feel No Pain. But that's one heck of a flexible combination. Use an Icon well and you can put him where-ever he needs to go, and some units of Lesser Daemons to screen an attempts to counter-charge him. Then you can bring more Daemons, Terminators, or Obliterators in on his position using his Personal Icon.

Obviously you've not going to get to choose all of your battles with him, but the guy's tougher than a Daemon Prince of Nurgle thanks to his Terminator Armour and Feel No Pain, more reliable with his Psychic Powers, and harder-hitting in the assault.

I agree completely that 5th edition isn't about winning points back. I'd argue that 4th edition never was. But Typhus isn't just a hand-to-hand character. His psychic powers and Terminator Armour make him an effective close range shooter and an anti-horde nightmare. I think he combines the close combat abilities of a Chaos Lord of Nurgle, with the toughness of a Daemon Prince of Nurgle, and the psychic powers of a Chaos Sorcerer of Nurgle.

Neither a Sorcerer nor a Daemon Prince can take a Daemon Weapon, have his powers go off automatically, have Feel No Pain, or take Defensive Grenades.

Basically sticking Typhus into a Land Raider and using him as a Chaos Lord seems to me to be the wrong way to go about using this guy. Just charging into a Tactical squad seems pointless when what would be better would be moving up good and close and zapping them with a psychic power, leaving the survivors with the option of assaulting him (but he has defensive grenades and Manreaper to chew up the unit before the Power Fist, if it survived, can swing) or trying to bring him down with shooting, which is going to take more than a Tactical squad.

I guess Ill chime in.. I am an avid Typhus user. If used properly, PFs wont be taking him out, unless they are charging into some Orcs w/ PF (which I avoid). But odds are your average 10 man squad w/PF will be nurgle booty slime vs the charge Typhus and his boys.

Of course I run my Typhus in a LR rolling with 4Termies w/champ. Its very rare someone will get a charge off vs T and his puss filled boys in a raider; they have to go through a LR AND be within range to assault me.

I had Typhus do some amazing things.. If used properly, I normally have him assaulting in Turn 3. However, It could just be my play style, and typhus works for me.. I have people in my area scared of him.. and curse me when ever I breakout my Deathguard.

My 2 Cents regarding typhus.

Far as Fluff Armies.. I found deathguard to be the most solid!! with very few weakness (well at least for me).. I dont run a foot PM spam Deathguard army; it takes finess to play with my list, but in my hands its pretty powerful (not because Im all amazing, but it fits my style of play).. Only problem I had with them is Tau and their Suits Fireknife setup. Lost once to it.. but then realizing what it can do to my army.. I chewed em up the next few games.

Mausama

Dude, that's almost exactly how I use Typhus (it's the most obvious way to use him) and I'm saying that it is way too risky to use in a tournament.
I'll continue to use him in friendly games, because he is just too much fun. But not in competative play, which is what we are discussing. A nurgle lord or daemon prince is a lot cheaper and more reliable.

Nurglitch wrote:Basically sticking Typhus into a Land Raider and using him as a Chaos Lord seems to me to be the wrong way to go about using this guy. Just charging into a Tactical squad seems pointless when what would be better would be moving up good and close and zapping them with a psychic power, leaving the survivors with the option of assaulting him (but he has defensive grenades and Manreaper to chew up the unit before the Power Fist, if it survived, can swing) or trying to bring him down with shooting, which is going to take more than a Tactical squad.

I have to Disagree with this; DS is not the way to go with him either. DS you are up to a dice roll to get him in on Turn 2, and if you do you will be hard press to deep strike him aggressively. Your army will not be in an agressive range by turn 2 if he becomes available. Which means Typhus will be on foot trying to chase people down or.. He will be DS agressively and risk Mishap or getting Destroyed on our opponents turn.

In a landraider that moves 12 inches per turn they odds are very strong in the controlling will have Typhus where he needs to be by turn 3. Typhus would not be shooting AND assault till turn 3 anyway to slice the pie anyways. LR + Package has 20inch assault range.

Mausama

Mausama:

I disagree with your analysis of Typhus' Deep Strike. Any Chaos Space Marine army can include Bikers, and Bikers can easily be anywhere on the board on Turn 2. Likewise Chosen are great at getting up close with Icons. When Deep Striking in on an Icon Typhus can be brought in at a very aggressive range without any risk of Mishap. An Icon also allows a screening unit of Lesser Daemons to come in with Typhus, if they are able, or to present a 'greater threat' by dropping Obliterators in with him.

Staying in reserve also prevents Typhus from being knocked out of the Land Raider early, and being forced to move in on foot, where he is wasted.

Da Boss wrote:Dude, that's almost exactly how I use Typhus (it's the most obvious way to use him) and I'm saying that it is way too risky to use in a tournament.
I'll continue to use him in friendly games, because he is just too much fun. But not in competative play, which is what we are discussing. A nurgle lord or daemon prince is a lot cheaper and more reliable.

Not sure if this was directed at me or Nurglitch; either way.. Nurglitch way and my way are different, and you can see that it isnt obvious either. Don't know about Grant Tournament, but local GW Tournaments its very competitively viable.. To be honest, I think many lists can be competitive (except booty lists), but it will come down to more tactics.

Daemon prince is a waste IMO; I just dont like how vulnerable he is. First round he can get housed by fire easy.. Granted High STR Low AP weapons wont be KOing him, but odds are one squad of Lootas would break him down.

Mausama

You must be talking about a high point game, if your talking about nurgle bikers and some Chosen.. You are already compensating for the lost of the LR with the bikes.

It does happen your Landraider gets popped in the first turn, but it also does happen Typhus may not come into turn 5. I think we are par for the course.

I was not saying your way was completely wrong.. if I came off that way Im not meaning it.. but I was in the defense of putting him a landraider being wrong.

Maybe Im anti DS, my other army is daemons, and I'm sick and tired of 1/3 of my army not showing up until turn 5.

Mausama