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COMMAND PLATOON
Command Squad: Heroic Senior Officer w/ Macharian Cross, Master Vox, Standard Bearer, Commissar w/ Macharian Cross, Cameleoline, Light Infantry
200
Special Weapons Support Squad: 3 Meltaguns, Cameleoline, Light Infantry
100
Special Weapons Support Squad: 3 Meltaguns, Cameleoline, Light Infantry
100

INFANTRY PLATOON
Command Squad: Junior Officer w/ Macharian Cross, Cameleoline, Light Infantry
80
Infantry Squad: Heavy Bolter, Grenade Launcher, Cameleoline, Light Infantry
98
Infantry Squad: Heavy Bolter, Grenade Launcher, Cameleoline, Light Infantry
98

INFANTRY PLATOON
Command Squad: Junior Officer w/ Macharian Cross, Cameleoline, Light Infantry
80
Infantry Squad: Heavy Bolter, Grenade Launcher, Cameleoline, Light Infantry
98
Infantry Squad: Heavy Bolter, Grenade Launcher, Cameleoline, Light Infantry
98

INFANTRY PLATOON
Command Squad: Junior Officer w/ Macharian Cross, Cameleoline, Light Infantry
80
Infantry Squad: Heavy Bolter, Grenade Launcher, Cameleoline, Light Infantry
98
Infantry Squad: Heavy Bolter, Grenade Launcher, Cameleoline, Light Infantry
98

INFANTRY PLATOON
Command Squad: Junior Officer w/ Macharian Cross, Cameleoline, Light Infantry
80
Infantry Squad: Heavy Bolter, Grenade Launcher, Cameleoline, Light Infantry
98
Infantry Squad: Heavy Bolter, Grenade Launcher, Cameleoline, Light Infantry
98

HEAVY WEAPONS PLATOON
Command Squad: Junior Officer w/ Macharian, Cameleoline, Light Infantry
80
Anti-Tank Support Squad: 3 Lascannons, Cameleoline, Light UInfantry
130
Anti-Tank Support Squad: 3 Lascannons, Cameleoline, Light UInfantry
130

TOTAL
1844
Model Count: 134 Infantry

This list is broken.

You've bought a Master Vox, but no Voxes. That's 25 points of dead weight. Why?

You bought a Commissar. 40 points wasted.

Your bought an HSO. 5 points wasted.

You bought Grenade Launchers when you should be bringing Flamers. 16 points wasted.

You've spent 140 points on Macharian Crosses.

You've spent 360 points on Cameleoline and Light Infantry.

Your anti-tank consists of 6 Meltaguns, as the Lascannons won't do much in 5th.

Your anti-infantry consists of 8 Heavy Bolters. How are you going to stop Orks with 8 Heavy bolters?

You put the Commissar, the two Doctrines, the Macharian Crosses, the Master Vox, the savings from switching GLs to Flamers and the needless HSO together and you get 586 points. That's 32% of your army wasted on bloat.

Now Cameleoline has its uses in 5th, I'll grant you that... but the rest?

You've got too many platoons, so you're sucking away points on dead-weight multi-KP Platoon HQ's (that don't even have any weapons). You have no hard targets. You don't have the numbers to fight off assaults. You have less guns than your average Daemon player.

This list needs reworking.

BYE

WOW, with all the Macharian Crosses do you expect or anticipate doing ALOT of redeployment? Seems an aweful lot of 20 point pieces of wargear where maybe only 1 or 2 at most would be needed.

Also as has been stated a bazillion times, you can save 5 points by using a Junior officer with the Honorifica Imperialis (same stat line as an HSO) and its 5 points cheaper than a Heroic Senior Officer.

Just my initial 2 impressions.

Also I would take some autocannons instead of some of those heavy bolters. And thats alot of grenade launchers....I'd maybe take a little more variety of special weapons, like a couple flamers (with all those heavy bolters, I'm going to guess you are mainly playing against orks/horde armies?)

need a little more info to make more constructive comments, but these are my first impressions from your list.

~Bart

lol, looks like HBMC is a faster typer than I am, but his points are valid.

~Bart

What makes even less sense is that his whole army has Infiltration, so why the need for the Macharius Crosses?

BYE

Thanks for all the advice (though you could make it a little more pleasant to read?). Here's the redone list.

COMMAND PLATOON
Command Squad: Junior Officer w/ Honorifica Imperialis, Refractor Field, Master Vox, Standard Bearer, Iron Discipline, Cameleoline
121
Fire Support Squad: 3 Heavy Bolters, Cameleoline
90
Fire Support Squad: 3 Heavy Bolters, Cameleoline
90
Anti-Tank Support Squad: 3 Lascannons, Cameleoline
120
Anti-Tank Support Squad: 3 Lascannons, Cameleoline
120

INFANTRY PLATOON
Command Squad: Junior Officer w/ Vox Caster, Iron Discipline, Cameleoline
60
Infantry Squad: Vox Caster, Flamer, Heavy Bolter Team, Cameleoline
91
Infantry Squad: Vox Caster, Flamer, Heavy Bolter Team, Cameleoline
91
Infantry Squad: Vox Caster, Flamer, Heavy Bolter Team, Cameleoline
91
Infantry Squad: Vox Caster, Plasmagun, Lascannon Team, Cameleoline, Sharpshooters
115

INFANTRY PLATOON
Command Squad: Junior Officer w/ Vox Caster, Iron Discipline, Cameleoline
60
Infantry Squad: Vox Caster, Flamer, Heavy Bolter Team, Cameleoline
91
Infantry Squad: Vox Caster, Flamer, Heavy Bolter Team, Cameleoline
91
Infantry Squad: Vox Caster, Flamer, Heavy Bolter Team, Cameleoline
91
Infantry Squad: Vox Caster, Plasmagun, Lascannon Team, Cameleoline, Sharpshooters
115


HEAVY WEAPONS PLATOON
Command Squad: Junior Officer w/ Vox Caster, Iron Discipline, Cameleoline
60
Anti-Tank Support Squad: 3 Lascannons, Cameleoline, Sharpshooters
130
Fire Support Squad: 3 Heavy Bolters, Cameleoline
90
Fire Support Squad: 3 Heavy Bolters, Cameleoline
90

Total 1841

I'll look over this when I get home.

PinkSpaceHippy wrote:though you could make it a little more pleasant to read?

You're right.

I could have.

BYE

HBMC is noted far and wide for his posting style. He generally gives decent advice, but trust me: after a few dozen times repeating the same handful of bits of advice about IG, you start losing some of the zest for it.

The second list is much better, but there is still some serious bloat. I'll start at the top and see what I can do.

Lose the refractor field on the HQ. If you're in HtH, they're going to die. You dont' want to slow that process in any way, so drop it and save some points.

Iron D isn't as essential as it was in 4th, but it's still not a bad buy.

Standard = good.

I don't use voxes. I've found that in general I have enough LD8 floating around with my JO's to not really miss the LD9. You spend a lot of points on voxes (80pts) and that's almost enough to buy an entire new squad. I'd use what's free (officer leadership) and take another squad.

Sharpshooters, if applied anywhere, should go on the Anti-tank squads before line squads. You bought it for the heavy support Anti-tank squad, but not the HQ ones.

Why not buy some weapons for your command sections? They can take four flamers or a Lascannon or something useful. I'ma big fan of four flamers and the "polonius pattern" command section with Missile Launcher and two plasma guns. It's got some punch, it can move and shoot lots of AP2, and it's pretty cheap.

With six HB/F squads, do you really need 4 fire support squads? I'm guessing you play against a lot of orks and not a lot of armor.

It'll also help us if you tell us what you expect the army to do. I'm guessing you plan to simply set up and shoot the heck out of your opponent while advancing with HB/F squads to claim objectives. It's not a bad start toward that, but I think you need to find a lot more anti-tank. Dropping a few fire support squads for triple melta veterans would be a great idea, even if you don't drop them.

PinkSpaceHippy wrote:Here's the redone list.

Mmm. And what a list it is...

PinkSpaceHippy wrote:COMMAND PLATOON
Command Squad: Junior Officer w/ Honorifica Imperialis, Refractor Field, Master Vox, Standard Bearer, Iron Discipline, Cameleoline
121

Step 1.

Ditch the Master Vox.

Step 2.

Ditch all the Voxes.

Step 3.

There is no step 3.

Step 4.

Celebrate that you just saved 80 points! That's a whole extra squad you just got!

PinkSpaceHippy wrote:Fire Support Squad: 3 Heavy Bolters, Cameleoline
90
Fire Support Squad: 3 Heavy Bolters, Cameleoline
90
Anti-Tank Support Squad: 3 Lascannons, Cameleoline
120
Anti-Tank Support Squad: 3 Lascannons, Cameleoline
120

Do you know what the chances of a BS3 Lascannon killing an AV14 vehicle are in 4+ cover are?

Here's a hint:

Not good.

It takes 12 Lascannons firing 6 times a game to get a single Vehicle Destroyed result (12 Lascannons over 6 turns = 72 shots = 36 hits = 18 not-saved = 6 penetrating = 2 destroyed/explodes). You have 11, so it will take more than 6 turns to do it. What's worse is that your entire army's AT is locked in Lascannons. You have nothing but Lascannons for AT work. There's a very good reason why everyone brings meltas in 5th - they almost always penetrate (average of 2D6+8 is 15). If you want to kill tanks, these Lascannons are not reliable. They are backup for Melta units.

PinkSpaceHippy wrote:INFANTRY PLATOON
Command Squad: Junior Officer w/ Vox Caster, Iron Discipline, Cameleoline
60
Infantry Squad: Vox Caster, Flamer, Heavy Bolter Team, Cameleoline
91
Infantry Squad: Vox Caster, Flamer, Heavy Bolter Team, Cameleoline
91
Infantry Squad: Vox Caster, Flamer, Heavy Bolter Team, Cameleoline
91
Infantry Squad: Vox Caster, Plasmagun, Lascannon Team, Cameleoline, Sharpshooters
115

I've already spoken about the ditching the Vox casters. The next thing I'm going to reccoment you ditch is the Sharpshooters. Two reasons:

1. 10 points will net you 0.5 extra Lascannon hits a game. Yep. Not even a full Lascannon hit.
2. Why on earth would you give Sharpshooters to a line squad when you've got squads with multiple heavy weapons? Seems absurd to give SS to this squad but not to the squad with three Lascannons (where it nets you 1 and a half extra Lascannon hits a game).

Overall this platoon doesn't need the fourth squad. The 115 points you've spent on it doesn't help your army, it hinders it. 85 points - which means you keep 30 - nets you 5 H-Vets w/3 Meltas & Cameleoline. Much better investment.

PinkSpaceHippy wrote:INFANTRY PLATOON
Command Squad: Junior Officer w/ Vox Caster, Iron Discipline, Cameleoline
60
Infantry Squad: Vox Caster, Flamer, Heavy Bolter Team, Cameleoline
91
Infantry Squad: Vox Caster, Flamer, Heavy Bolter Team, Cameleoline
91
Infantry Squad: Vox Caster, Flamer, Heavy Bolter Team, Cameleoline
91
Infantry Squad: Vox Caster, Plasmagun, Lascannon Team, Cameleoline, Sharpshooters
115

Everything said about the previous platoon applies to this platoon.

You dump both Las/Plas squad and you net yourself enough for two H-Vet units and still have 60 in change, which you'll need.

PinkSpaceHippy wrote:HEAVY WEAPONS PLATOON
Command Squad: Junior Officer w/ Vox Caster, Iron Discipline, Cameleoline
60
Anti-Tank Support Squad: 3 Lascannons, Cameleoline, Sharpshooters
130
Fire Support Squad: 3 Heavy Bolters, Cameleoline
90
Fire Support Squad: 3 Heavy Bolters, Cameleoline
90

Again, Vox=bad, so ditch that. The Sharpshooters here isn't a bad idea though. However, if you want this army to work you are going to need to switch a few things around.

You will need the following Doctrines:

Iron Discipline
Cameleoline
Heavy Weapon Platoons
Drop Troops
Veterans

The last two are simply to give you some anti-tank. Veterans allows you to take more than one squad of H-Vets, and Drop Troops allows you to get the H-Vets into position to wipe something out. You lose Sharpshooters, but that's not really a big loss and you save a few extra points.

The army ends up looking like this:

CHQ - 91
Junior Officer w/Honorifica Imperialis + Iron Discipline
Veteran w/Company Standard
3 Mooks w/Lasguns
Cameleoline
Fire Support Squad - 105
3 Autocannons + Cameleoline
Fire Support Squad - 105
3 Autocannons + Cameleoline
AT Squad - 120
3 Lascannons + Cameleoline
AT Squad - 120
3 Lascannons + Cameleoline

H-Vets - 85 Points
3 Meltaguns + Cameleoline
H-Vets - 85 Points
3 Meltaguns + Cameleoline
H-Vets - 85 Points
3 Meltaguns + Cameleoline

Platoon HQ - 79
JO w/Iron Discipline
4 Flamers
Cameleoline
Squad - 86
Heavy Bolter + Flamer
Cameleoline
Squad - 86
Heavy Bolter + Flamer
Cameleoline
Squad - 86
Heavy Bolter + Flamer
Cameleoline

Platoon HQ - 79
JO w/Iron Discipline
4 Flamers
Cameleoline
Squad - 86
Heavy Bolter + Flamer
Cameleoline
Squad - 86
Heavy Bolter + Flamer
Cameleoline
Squad - 86
Heavy Bolter + Flamer
Cameleoline

Platoon HQ - 79
JO w/Iron Discipline
4 Flamers
Fire Support Squad - 90
3 Heavy Bolters + Cameleoline
Fire Support Squad - 90
3 Heavy Bolters + Cameleoline
AT Squad - 120
3 Lascannons + Cameleoline

1849 Points

That's:

9 Lascannons
9 Meltaguns (BS4)
15 Flamers
6 Autocannons
12 Heavy Bolters
137 Models

BYE

Yea thats good. Listen to H.B.M.C.

Wow, thanks a lot. Totally didn't expect a list done for me, but I like it. Much appreciated.

What is this bs that lascannons suck as a anti-tank weapon? They are much better compared to a meltagun or even multi-melta. Lascannon's range is much greater, but it's true that meltaweapons penetrate better. But how often do you get into a situation when you actually get the 2d6 pen? IG, which doesn't really get multi-meltas, only have 12" meltaguns. Why is it assumed that a tank should be wrecked with one or two shots? Possibly the most general av14 tank is Leman Russ. So your meltaguns will do nothing, unless the guns are deep striking. Even then you have the possibility to scatter far away from the rear and the deep striking squad only gets one shot before it is destroyed.

Lascannons only work against targets in the open. Once the enemy vehicle has a 4+ save, things get much worse. And H-Vets do Deep Strike. Scattering away isn't a big deal, as there are three such units, giving you redundancy.

People have been using Guard Deep Striking Melta units since the Codex first came out. They work, and until Drop Troops are taken away from us (or allowed only via a shiny new Special Character model) they will continue to be useful.

BYE

Although I listen to HBMC's advice, I do differ on one element of anti-tank squads. (No, not the deepstriking melta teams, I use that tactic myself with much success.) I like to have one anti-tank squad with lascannons and one anti-tank squad with missile launchers (he has posted on one of my lists before that he's not very fond of ML for guard) and here is my reasoning...

lascannons:
range 48", STR 9, AP2, Heavy 1

missile launchers:
range 48", STR 8, AP3, Heavy 1 (using krak missiles)
range 48", STR 4, AP6, Heavy 1 Blast (using frag missiles)

What I like about having the ML anti-tank squad is that if you are facing horde armies, that 3 extra blast templates you are able to drop 48" away for a couple turns is a nice option to have. And if you are going against a more armored force, you are still str 8, ap 3 with krak missiles. more versatility equals more options when the poop hits the fan. I know its a difference in playing styles, and thats cool. But its something I have had some success in (we have a couple horde army players, so this works better for me, whereas if you're going up agains MEQ forces alot, maybe it wont work for you.)

something to consider anyway.

~Bart

8+6 = 14 which is glancing on AV14 Units. You could glance it to death, but it won't happen. If you want anti-horde fire power, take hellhounds, they don't scatter.
Range lost its importance with the new run and deployment zones, at best the enemy will be 24" from you and that is the range of the hell hound.

which is why i still have a lascannon anti-tank squad as well....see what i mean about versatility? And honestly, how many AV14 vehicles do you encounter in a game? not to mention I have my deep strike squads with meltaguns to handle any big vehicles if needed, so I say spread it around a bit. I've had very good luck in 5th with my ML squad.

~Bart

i am with bart on this i am new to ig but i play orks and nercons
and let me tell you versitlelity is key i won alot more with my orks
then my nercons because my orks where alot more flexable
granted the orks are one of the most in the game i
still think he's right with the ML ivan if they get a armor save or cove
the blast does't out right miss it scatters

i have another question for the ig palyers since i am new are Chem inhaler equipment
good in 5th or not

tanith45 wrote:i have another question for the ig palyers since i am new are Chem inhaler equipment
good in 5th or not

If you look at the top right of the page there's a bunch of links there. If you go into articles, HBMC did a very good one on guard doctrines and goese into the advantages/ disadvantages of each one, I sugest checking it out i found it to be very informative.

Informative yes, but also slightly out of date. It has not been updated for 5th, and I see no reason to give how close we are to the new Guard Codex release.

BYE

dunno why you hate missile launchers i have 2 25 man platoons with 3 Heavy Bs and 3 MLs spread evenly theywork, even against orks and the ability for extra templates meaning extra wounds is useful against space marines and a missile launcher won't hit as often but with the new blast weapons rules guard are great with em

Dexy wrote:8+6 = 14 which is glancing on AV14 Units. You could glance it to death, but it won't happen. If you want anti-horde fire power, take hellhounds, they don't scatter.

Math time!

1.) Average roll on a six sided die is 3.5 ([6+5+4+3+2+1]/6). 2*3.5=7; 8+7=15, which penetrates on average.

2.) If you hit within 6", you will fail to damage 1 in 4 times; 1 in 6 times you will glance, the rest of the time (21 in 36 times) you're going to rock its world.

3.)With pens, 1/2 the time you're going to be destroying the vehicle (exploding 1/3 the time).

3.) With a meltagun being an AP1 weapon, at worst on a pen you will be stunning, and on a roll of a six you will still be destroying on glances. It is still quite possible to glance a vehicle to a quick death with a meltagun.

The only advantage of the lascannon is that you have the range that you do. Still, odds are terrible that you take out anything.

ouch, my head hurts from the math-hammer. lol.

but point well made!