Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Doctrines:

Drop Troops
Special Weapon Squads
Close Order Drill
Iron Discipline


HQ

Command Platoon 307 pts

Comand Squad
SO w Iron Discipline
Vet w Company Banner

2 X Special Weapon Squad w 2x Flamers + Demo Charg

2X Sentinel w Lascannon



Elites

Hard Vets 75 pts
Sgt + 4 Vets w 3x Meltaguns



Troops

Infantry Platoon 1 320 pts

Command Squad
JO w 4x Guardsman w Meltas

3x Infantry Squad w Plasmagun + Heavy Bolter


Infantry Platoon 2 270 pts

Command Squad
JO w 4x Guardsman w Meltas

1x Infantry Squad w Grenade Launcher + Lascannon

1x Infantry Squad w Plasmagun +Lascannon



Fast Attack

Sentinel Squad 1 2x Sentinel w Autocannon 100pts

Sentinel Squad 2 2x Sentinel w Heavy Flamer 80 pts

Sentinel Squad 3 1x Sentinel w Heavy Flamer 40pts




Heavy Support

Leman Russ w Hull Heavy Bolter and Improved Comms 165pts

Leman Russ w Hull Heavy Bolter 145pts



Total Pts 1500

Thanks for any input

NOT TO BE NEGATIVE BUT WHAT IS THE SQUAD OF VETS W/MELTAGUNS FOR IF YOU ARE DROPPING THEm I THINK
YOU YOU BETTER PRAY TO THE DICE GODS BECAUSE IF THEY DON'T DROP WITH IN 12 INCHS YOUR OPPENET
WILL PLAYER HATE THEM LIKE THE PLAQUE IF HE'S NOT STUPID
I lso have to ask are you playing against alot fo horde armys because you have alot of flamers

I think you would want more guard to claim objectives.

Also you have allot of sentinels, you may want to cut back on a few of them and use the points for guardsmen.

tanith45 wrote:NOT TO BE NEGATIVE BUT WHAT IS THE SQUAD OF VETS W/MELTAGUNS FOR IF YOU ARE DROPPING THEm

Not to be nagative but turn ya damned CAPSLOCK key off.

And drop is what Melta H-Vets do. That's all they do.

BYE

misdrops are the bane of every drop army/squad. you just have to have builtin redundancy when posssible to deal with the occasional bad roll. not that big of an issue.

NOT TO BE NEGATIVE BUT WHAT IS THE SQUAD OF VETS W/MELTAGUNS FOR IF YOU ARE DROPPING THEm I THINK
YOU YOU BETTER PRAY TO THE DICE GODS BECAUSE IF THEY DON'T DROP WITH IN 12 INCHS YOUR OPPENET
WILL PLAYER HATE THEM LIKE THE PLAQUE IF HE'S NOT STUPID

Army incudes 3 melta drop squads to make very bad things go away. This is a guard army, losses are not acceptable, they are necessary.

I lso have to ask are you playing against alot fo horde armys because you have alot of flamers

I do not know what I will be playing against. I suggest this as a general purpose army to allow me to make some focused purchases to get my first army started. I have never played before. Besides flamers look like the new black with all the 4+ cover saves.

I think you would want more guard to claim objectives.

That may be, I was trying to keep the model count down a bit to get an army on the table sooner.

Also you have allot of sentinels, you may want to cut back on a few of them and use the points for guardsmen.

Again you may be right, although the sentinels can drop to, which can put a lot of fire power into critical locations. Also at some point I wanted to evolve the list into a pure drop army and loose the tanks. The sentinels would then be my only "heavy" support

And drop is what Melta H-Vets do. That's all they do

Yeah what he said

But seriously before I drop several hundred is this a viable force, or is a rework in order?

Well If your dropping the whole army heavy weapons are pointless to me.

Vets are amazing

Drop GL"s there worthless

Demo charges arent good any more. 2 D6 scatter.

if all drop. get rid of russes give sent's improved comm's.

Take more IG with ethier Melta or plasma.

In Hq take meltas or plasma or flamers

Well If your dropping the whole army heavy weapons are pointless to me.

That was not the intent for the army as it is posted, Army was to be based arround a firing supported by drop elements.

Drop GL"s there worthless

Was not a first pick, did not have enough points for a plasma or melta

Demo charges arent good any more. 2 D6 scatter.

Was a suggestion someone gave me. I am neutral on them.

well the only thing i dont like about your sentinels being grouped into squadrons is the fact that with the squadron rules, you get an immobilised result on one of your sentinels in that squadron, your crew abandons it. so instead of at least becoming a lightly armored pilbox when disabled, it makes the results of 5,6, and now 4 a vehicle destroyed result. On the plus side though crew stunned are treated as just crew shaken. I'm still up in the air about grouping them into squadrons, i guess i'll have to play 5 or 6 games with my sents in squadrons to see how it shakes out.

Don't forget they are open topped so on a 3+ they are destoyed. and the shaken thing will only happen on a roll of 1 so pretty much worthless unless you give them the enclosed top

I think you would want more guard to claim objectives.

That may be, I was trying to keep the model count down a bit to get an army on the table sooner.

Also you have allot of sentinels, you may want to cut back on a few of them and use the points for guardsmen.

Again you may be right, although the sentinels can drop to, which can put a lot of fire power into critical locations. Also at some point I wanted to evolve the list into a pure drop army and loose the tanks. The sentinels would then be my only "heavy" support

But seriously before I drop several hundred is this a viable force, or is a rework in order?

I think it would be a very fun army to play, the sentinels would be fun as it would add some uncertainty to the game, as to how viable it is... I don't think you would be winning any tournaments, I think if you had more guardsmen maybe 3 more squads to give each platoon 4, and cut down on the sentinels drop the special wepons squads, you would have a realy solid fire base with somesentinels to flank/drop to keep the other guy on his toes. Not only will doing that make the list stronge it would probly be less expensive in dollar terms, sentinels are pricey.

I will do a full look over this army once I've finished the look over in [url=http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/223312.pagethis other thread[/url], which is turning out to be far longer than I originally predicted.

BYE

Demo charges arent good any more. 2 D6 scatter.

I was thinking about this statement. After rechecking a few things, I have to protest this statement. I will agree that under either 4th or 5th edition rules the demo charge can be an unreliable weapon. However unless I am missing something, the scatter is actually 2d6 - 3. The potential scatter is up to 9" or 3" more than 4th. This however is diminished by the fact that some scattered shots will in fact not scatter at all in 5th due to the -3. There is an equal chance for a scattered shot to scatter 0" as it is for it to scatter 8 or 9". The odds of a 0" scatter in 5th are 38.9% as compared to 33.3% in 4th. The odds that a shot will scatter 2" or less is about 52% in 5th, and about 55.5% in 4th. The 5th edition rules allow for a shot to miss by much further, but the actual decrease in accuracy is only a very small amount.

Terrax wrote:

Demo charges arent good any more. 2 D6 scatter.

I was thinking about this statement. After rechecking a few things, I have to protest this statement. I will agree that under either 4th or 5th edition rules the demo charge can be an unreliable weapon. However unless I am missing something, the scatter is actually 2d6 - 3. The potential scatter is up to 9" or 3" more than 4th. This however is diminished by the fact that some scattered shots will in fact not scatter at all in 5th due to the -3. There is an equal chance for a scattered shot to scatter 0" as it is for it to scatter 8 or 9". The odds of a 0" scatter in 5th are 38.9% as compared to 33.3% in 4th. The odds that a shot will scatter 2" or less is about 52% in 5th, and about 55.5% in 4th. The 5th edition rules allow for a shot to miss by much further, but the actual decrease in accuracy is only a very small amount.

Wow someone's been at work with a calculator! It does prove your point though; makes me reconsider special weapons squads...

So, some more general comments:
- sentinel squadrons are a risk IMO, unless you make them enclosed which makes them ridiculously expensive. I'd consider reducing their numbers and upping your troops. Makes grabbing objectives alot easier, and a 10-man guard squad is more survivable then a sentinel vs everything except S3 firepower. SO, only lasguns .
- You got the whole redundancy idea right. With IG, if it's worth taking once, it's worth taking twice (or thrice). The ony thing I'd up is your number of basic inf. squads. Cheap heavy weapons and objective taking = win.
- lascannons arent that great in line squads. If you must take them, I'd rather combine HB/GL and las/plasma. In an ideal world, I'd combine autocannon/plasma in most squads. I'm not a GL hater like so many IG players, but in all I take them to avoid too many cheese comments and because they are in the samle strength range as a HB.
- One h-vet squad isn't enough. Use two. You still have a doctrine point open, so take veterans .
- Not obligatory, but hellhounds are nasty in 5th, and orks/tyranids/tau/IG hate'em. I'd consider dropping a sent squad for some.
- Since 5th tends to be about cover saves, consider cameleoline.
- No counterpunch unit is pretty risky.

Ok here is the reworked army for comment


Doctrines:
Drop Troops
Close Order Drill
Iron Discipline
Veterans


Command Platoon 71 pts
SO - Iron Discipline
Vet w/ Standard
3 x Guardsman w/ Lasgun

Command Platoon is in charge of Morale rolls on the main firing line




Elites 225 pts

3 X Hardened Vets (75 pts ea)
Vet Sarge
3 X Vet w/ Melta
Vet w lasgun

Vets Drop on Hard targets to Melta attack at close range





Troops

Infantry Platoon Alpha 389 pts

Command Squad w/ 3X Flamers

3 X Squads w/ Plasma Gun and Auto Cannon

1 x Squad w/ Vet Sarge and Plasma Gun


Infantry Platoon Bravo 390 Pts

Command Squad w 3 X Flamers

3 X Squads w/ Plasma and Missile Launcher

1 X Squad w/ Vet Sarge-Bolter, and Plasma


The Six Squads with Heavy Weapons form a firing line foundation

The Command Squads will be used to Drop and Flamer attack at close Range

The 2 Squads with Vet Sarges will be Drop Reinforcement / Assault troops to drop in where ever they may be needed





Fast Attack

Hellhound 115 pts





Heavy Support

Leman Russ w hull bolter and Improved Coms 165 pts

Leman Russ w hull bolter 145 pts




Total 1500 Pts

ok, first off, read thru this post... click this link. When you get to H.B.M.C.'s long reply post read that one, and then read it again. It will help you get a more fundamental grasp of what alot of Guard players feel are good winning strategies for Guard Tactics. He also has a Guard Tactica listed under the tactics forum that is a very good read as well. Check that one out too.

That having been said, here are some more casual observations for your new list.......

Command Platoon 71 pts
SO - Iron Discipline
Vet w/ Standard
3 x Guardsman w/ Lasgun

Command Platoon is in charge of Morale rolls on the main firing line

I still prefer a JO with an HI for my overall commander in my lists, but if you're dead set on a SO then so be it. Otherwise you got the right idea. These guys should be within 12 inches of as many squads as they can support, and well hidden from your enemies view.

Elites 225 pts

3 X Hardened Vets (75 pts ea)
Vet Sarge
3 X Vet w/ Melta
Vet w lasgun

Vets Drop on Hard targets to Melta attack at close range

Not sure if you'll need 3 HV squads...I find 2 at this points level is plenty, but again...you'll have to play it and see if the other 75 points could be put to better use elsewhere. Otherwise you again have the right idea of their purpose.

Troops

Infantry Platoon Alpha 389 pts

Command Squad w/ 3X Flamers

3 X Squads w/ Plasma Gun and Auto Cannon

1 x Squad w/ Vet Sarge and Plasma Gun


Infantry Platoon Bravo 390 Pts

Command Squad w 3 X Flamers

3 X Squads w/ Plasma and Missile Launcher

1 X Squad w/ Vet Sarge-Bolter, and Plasma


The Six Squads with Heavy Weapons form a firing line foundation

The Command Squads will be used to Drop and Flamer attack at close Range

The 2 Squads with Vet Sarges will be Drop Reinforcement / Assault troops to drop in where ever they may be needed

Ummm, not sure I agree with the flaming drop command squads. IMHO they should either be up near the front lines but in cover providing their leadership bubble, or if you want to make them drop ninjas then give them a different weapon with a better range. with the potential for scatter you could find your flamer wielding command squad too far away to flame anyone and then shot to hell the next turn for no benefit real easy. Again a few playtests should bear this out, but I'd think long and hard about a different tactic here. Also the Vet Sergeants are a waste of points in my opinion. There are better things to do with the points than upgrading one squad per platoon.

Fast Attack

Hellhound 115 pts

One hellhound is a fire magnet. If you are going to take one, take at least 2, possibly 3 if you can free up the points. Although at this level you may be able to get one or two rounds in before it gets blasted off the table. If possible, take 2.

Heavy Support

Leman Russ w hull bolter and Improved Coms 165 pts

Leman Russ w hull bolter 145 pts

I like to run my tanks with sponsons. makes their effectiveness much greater. If you do take sponsons for your tanks just remember this.....take HB sponsons and hull HB for LRBTs and I take plasma cannon sponsons and hull lascannon for my Demolishers. That mix seem to compliment each other better.

Good luck. In the end you'll have to play a few games and tweak it to fit your style of play.

Good hunting soldier, now praise the Emporer and pass the ammunition!!!

I still prefer a JO with an HI for my overall commander in my lists, but if you're dead set on a SO then so be it.

I know your right, I guess I have just been avoiding this because it feels cheesy.

Ummm, not sure I agree with the flaming drop command squads. IMHO they should either be up near the front lines but in cover providing their leadership bubble, or if you want to make them drop ninjas then give them a different weapon with a better range. with the potential for scatter you could find your flamer wielding command squad too far away to flame anyone and then shot to hell the next turn for no benefit real easy. Again a few playtests should bear this out, but I'd think long and hard about a different tactic here. Also the Vet Sergeants are a waste of points in my opinion. There are better things to do with the points than upgrading one squad per platoon.

I guess I am still struggling to understand the use of the platoon command squads. I did not think the army needed 3 morale squads so I wanted to take advantage of the large number of special weapons available. I already have 3 melta squads, so I was not going for more anti armor. I figured anti infantry was the way to go. Perhaps deploying them as counter attack commanders would be better. Bring them out when the enemy come close rather than dropping on him.

One hellhound is a fire magnet. If you are going to take one, take at least 2, possibly 3 if you can free up the points. Although at this level you may be able to get one or two rounds in before it gets blasted off the table. If possible, take 2.

Yeah, and I really do know better, I was thinking of it as my third tank instead of my first Hellhound.

Oh well, at least I feel like I am making some progress

Well it looks like the list is getting better. However it is worth reminding that doctrines are going away in a few months. So building an army around them might not be the best thing right now. I have heard nothing about allowing or disallowing drop troops in the new dex rumors. So MY suggestion is to make a balanced guard force that is not reliant on doctrines and react when the new rules come out. True it is not as good as a list with doctrines but you will not hamstring yourself either. Just be prepared to change pretty much everything if the dex is greatly different then what we expect. Just saying...

Just be prepared to change pretty much everything if the dex is greatly different then what we expect. Just saying...

Yeah 1 tiny step forward, and many steps all the way back to the drawing board. I guess I will just stick to painting lasgun guardsman for now. Of course now they will probably make these obsolete!!

yep. I heard that the lasgun is getting "squatted" anyways. reliable sources and such tell me that guardsmen will have bolters.

Kungfuhustler wrote:yep. I heard that the lasgun is getting "squatted" anyways. reliable sources and such tell me that guardsmen will have bolters.

And power armor

for 4 points a model.

Yeah painting the main stuff seems to be a good plan. I would think you can pretty much paint anything and everything. Just be careful not to spam anything would be my suggestion. Painting a good mix seems smart to me. Pretty sure everything is coming back and much more. However HOW they will be squadded will be the key. You might have too many or not enough heavy, special, sgts, tanks and the like. I will have over 2000pts fully painted by the time the dex comes out. Pretty well balanced and lots of different units. I feel confident that I should be able to use it all when the new dex comes out due to the range of models painted.

Just my 2 cents...