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Hi there
Many of us in our games have fielded "counts as" models because either we don't have that particular item or model or we want to see how it fields before buying it. For those who aren't familar with "counts as" an example is asking your opponent if it is ok that the dreadnoughts plasma cannon can be used as a "Counts as Multi-Melta" for this match. Most opponents are quite happy to go along with this as long as they are informed (obviously)

My question is this. Have I gone too far with this conversion???
(I was hoping to get a pic uploaded but my camera is missing)

Basically, I have used the Space Marine Termininator with power weapon and have put him on the larger terminator base (not the original smaller one, you'll see why below)
I have attached a old fashioned metal jumppack onto his upper back
I have attached a combi weapon with two boltgun nozzels

The model he "counts as" is....
Chapter Master with artificer armour
Equipped with Relic Blade
Mounted on a bike
Hellfire rounds (which would act as twin-linked as the bike is modified to hold them hence the ornate double barrelled weapon
(Costs are used correctly for actual wargear taken. If he takes a bike, he pays for a bike even though the model looks like a jumppack)

I have made fluff to explain how his armour is and jump pack act differently to as they would appear. And have also made a model with the correct weapons and items just in case my opponents say no. I just really want a ornate looking model as my Chapter Master

If you were my opponent, would you allow this model after I gave the full explaination of what everything does? Or is he destined to sit on my self as an awesome looking figure and nothing more?

I'm hoping that because the changes I've made are mor obvious as being wrong for that type of model by most players, it will never be mistaken that he has custom "Counts As" rules

--------

In the post below is a small section of my WIP fluff to help explain what his armour does and why it looks like something else. It is only rough but might help to see where I'm coming from and the reason why I want him modelled so.

EDIT: PLASMA FLUFF DROPPED, PLEASE DISREGARD
The suit itself is akin to that of a suit of Terminator armour in size and toughness but therein the similarities end. The suit contains far denser polymers making the suit slightly tougher and more durable to all incoming. Powerful actuators allows the suit to move at a quicker pace than its predecessor and even sports a low level Jump Pack that although is not powerful enough to enable long term flight it is capable of frightening short spurts speeds. (Toughness is increased to 5 to represent the bike and movement rules for bike are obviously used, jump pack is modelled to give appearance of better mobility than terminator armour would allow)

Another relic is the Vengeance , a weapon handcrafted by Hells Guardian himself, sporting dual linked a lower powered dual plasma weapon that whilst lacking the armour piercing strength of its higher powered brothers, it is able to produce a higher quantity plasma rounds that envelope the targets armour making it a more reliable weapon. (Hellfire rounds modify the bikes boltgun as standard to have hellfire rounds and thus are represented by a twin barrelled weapon that is hand held as his only weapon)
EDIT: PLASMA FLUFF DROPPED, PLEASE DISREGARD
EDIT: WEAPON NOW TREATED AS TWIN LINKED BOLTGUN WITH HELLFIRE(works same as per codex for bikes with hellfire)

I personally don't like the idea of "low-powered plasma" it just doesn't seem to fit the way the Imperium uses it to me, although I can't back it up with specific fluff, but I always felt like they lacked the proper knowlede for modulating the power like that.

Mostly other than that it's fine, the only thing that could have me unsure would be if he just had the same jump pack as the assault marines in your army, because that could cause a lapse in comprehending his movement easier, but if his jump pack looked unique particularly if it was a bit smaller and more ornate, I would be fine with it.

Really there's not much point asking us though, it's your opponents that are going to matter, and I guarantee some of them are going to tell you to play WYSIWYG because some people expect everything to be very strict on that.

If I was playing you, I'd be generous and allow it.

If you were one of my buddies, though, you'd catch all kinds of Hell.
"Cheater"
"Nice Cheating Mini."
"Your bike has no wheels"
"Your bike has no... bike."
"I'm targeting the terminator on a bike that isn't really a termainator... or a bike..."
LOL

It would be all in good fun, of course.
If I won, it would be "in spite of your cheating." If I lost, it would be "because of your cheating."

Then again, my group is rather merciless with each other when it comes to harassment.

IRL, the problem you'll have is that a terminator with a jump pack (whether new or old) takes up quite a different amount of space. It's harder to hide a guy on bike than a standing guy. People will NOT like that.

Eric

@Drunkspleen
yes, explaining them as being low-powered plasma each game and expalining the fluff as to why its treated as "low-powered" would take ages and could cause confusion. Think I got carried away when writing the fluff.
I'll revert it back to it actually being a twin-linked hellfire boltgun. That way it looks right (its two barrelled) and won't need a lot of explaining as I'll ditch the plasma rules.

@MagickalMemories
Dammit, I had not considered how the new LOS rules would affect the model.

Cheers for your comments guys, will ponder the LOS and redo the fluff for my chapter to drop the twin plasma gun.

in my opinion yes they are just too different.

maybe I could add a trailer with teddy bear being dragged behind him to give him the extra size. lmao

As long as he's mounted on a Bike Base, I see no reason why not.

The model can be a Snotling spanking Sigmar for all I care, as long as it's unique in the army, and the base is the appropriate size.

I would need him to be encased in some sort of chassis to justify the Bike bit. I'm okay with Terminator armor counting as artificer armor, combi bolter counting as TL-anything-gun, etc. but when you're dealing with stuff like base sizes and model sizes the line between 'cool model' and 'stupid modeling for advantage' gets fuzzed.

I also don't much like the low powered plasma bit. The Imperium can't even figure out how to make its plasma guns not kill the user twice per battle. That sort of delicate modulation seems pretty far beyond them.

This would be confusing as hell. If your buddies don't mind, then it's fine. If I was playing you, I'd ask you to get the appropriate model.

I'd play against you.

Thanks all
Yes, I'm dropping the plasma bit. It "does" make more sense without it.

@Sourclams
If a player says no I'm not allowing it (and I wouldn't argue one bit) then i have a model I could use that is correctly modelled on a bike if need be. I just really hate the look of charactors on bikes lol. And wanted just one of my charactors, namely the chapter master, to be an awesome model than all others which would be far harder for me on bike mounted one.

I think the main issue is to make sure that when using him I DO NOT get an advantage with the new LOS rules.
What would you think to him having a familiar with him? The familiar would be treated as being the Chapter Master so all LOS, shooting or CC made in contact with the familiar would be treated as if the familiar and Chapter Master was ONE model.
This would obviously make him a larger target as the they would be longer with two bases, would make him less easy to hide with the new CC and the two bases would be an approximate same size as a bike base for CC.

Thoughts? Or am i just making things more difficult?

When enemy shoots at him, simply count him as being bigger. For example change his model with a biker. It still is troublesome...

Put wheels on the ends of the jump pack to make them like the Robotech bikes. Was so gonna do this for my white scars till they got stolen.

Why don't you post a pic?

hellsguardian316 wrote:If a player says no I'm not allowing it (and I wouldn't argue one bit) then i have a model I could use that is correctly modelled on a bike if need be. I just really hate the look of charactors on bikes lol. And wanted just one of my charactors, namely the chapter master, to be an awesome model than all others which would be far harder for me on bike mounted one.

I'm just a bit confused by this situation, you say you hate the look of characters on bikes, and the chapter master can't allow you to take bikes as troops, so why give him a bike?

this one had me rubbing my chin for a minute. i love the idea and all that jazz, but really not being on a bike is really whats killing it for me. LOS and not to mention blast templates. specially the blast templates, you use the actual model, and not being on a bike gives you a serious advantage for ducking out of the template. also if you were kind and said "aww screw it as long as it touches the base itll count" that gives ME the upper hand because i have bikes on bases and theres been a few close calls that JUST miss the models.
put it all on a bike and id totally allow it.

a quick thought, you could try and make him standing on the back of a bike flat bed style, or even some type of SM chariot. that would eliminate the whole being on a bike problem. and if modeled correctly it wouldnt be much larger.

@ "All"
Some good thoughts posted and some good critism posted too, its got me thinking about ways to improve the design.

I didn't want to model him on a bike as generally I find it hard to model imposing charactors when on a bike. And with all gear he will have modelled I want him to stand out clearly and have more flexiblity of placing items without being constricted by a bike chassis. The main reason for the bike was to give him increased toughness, an option for turbo boosting if he ends up on his own and he can fire his hellfire boltgun and assualt due to the relentless rule. He would most likely be attached to assualt marines anyway as I'm not a fan of bike squads, they do not suit my army composition.

@wyomingfox
Some goit has borrowed my camera and not returned it, as a pic here would have been much better I will do so as soon as i can. So sorry for that.

@KingCracker
Yes, I'm going to look into doing something similar so that I can increase his overal mass and visability so that I still get an imposing looking model that can still be seen as easily as he would have been if mounted on a bike. I wouldn't want to give myself advantages by having a smaller model as I like to play honestly. So I'm glad LOS was raised as I hadn't previously thought about it.

Cheers everyone

EDIT: Edited grammer mistakes and incorrect wording to make post clearer

Put him on a large skateboard or waterski (and paint him silver?).

hellsguardian316 wrote:For those who aren't familar with "counts as" an example is asking your opponent if it is ok that the dreadnoughts plasma cannon can be used as a "Counts as Multi-Melta" for this match. Most opponents are quite happy to go along with this as long as they are informed (obviously)

I disagree. In my mind "counts as" is used to allow creative modelling while still being codex legal. It is also a way to get non-standard or obsolete models into the game.

-Imperial Guardsmen mounted on Dark Elf Cold Ones "counts as" Roughriders
-Squats "counts as" Imperial Guardsmen
-Halo Actionclix 4-wheel combat ATV's "counts as" Space Marine Land Speeders
-Chaos Raptors with daemonic wings instead of jump packs

These are examples of using an alternate models and/or conversions to represent codex choices. The idea is that they look cool and are more unique.

Deciding before the match that so and so's lascannon is actually an assault cannon, and this multi-melta over here is actually a heavy flamer is more like a proxy rather than "counts as". In my mind something that is a current range model should never "count as" something else. Maybe if I was at home playing a casual game against a freind I might entertain the idea but I would be loathe to attempt this against a stranger.

So basically if you've got a model with a jump pack then he should have a jump pack. If you want him on a bike, then use a bike, or model up an appropriate substitute (that is not already something else in the game).

Just my 2 cents.

The way I describe "Counts As" works differently in my gaming group and I'm not aware that its offical terminology, so guess I'll have to make it clearer next time I use that word

Thanks for the input though, its good to know from other players points of view and how they differ.

I may look into modifying a bike to suit my needs and drop the jump pack. From all the responses here I'm understanding that you can only stretch conversions so far.

Thanks everyone who gave input to this thread. I'm going to try a few conversions and see what I come up with

Basically the model looks nothing like what he counts as? Obviously I'd say no.

generally most people dont care as long as you tell then what the model is supposed to be ( an interesting note artificer armor dosent have to look any different than regular power armor.if you read the discription of artificer armor in the SM codex it will tell you this. I only mention it because you dont have to model the fig differently if you dont want to. This generally only comes into play if you run into someone who says everything has to be 100% WYSIWYG) As far as tournaments thats hit and miss if its a model thats converted and painted i.e. cold ones and eldar to represent eldar on jet bikes, or the deceiver to represent the laughing god, then its cool (there is one shop that says you cant convert anything and if GW makes the model you have to use the model, but Ive only run into that once in 15 years.

But in your case its perfectly acceptable even in tournaments. You converted a model Thats it, as long as you explain what he is supposed to be equiped with your cool. Heck most stores will give you extra points for modeling in RTT's.

This is pretty standard stuff really. Twin plasma pistols count as master crafted (or a plasma pistol and a power weapon) angel wings are jump packs,etc... You have to be a bit more creative with marines as oppossed to say CSM or orks (this hunk of metal with wheels and a rokkit is a deff kopta)

what part of the model is wysiwyg if it looks like a jump pack its a jump pack and if it looks like a terminator its a termi no bike well then there's no bike in a tournament there is no way i'd be okay with this. if you and i are playing at our local store for no reason then i have no problem with it but you'd tatally catch hell from me

Sure, why not? I think it's a pretty good idea, but the hell fire rounds are a little much. Other than that, i think it works.

The part I'm stuck at is:
Terminator armor with a jet pack counting as a bike.

Without seeing the model, your description doesn't fit the wargear, especially on a terminator base.

If you did something like took a bike base, and did some sort of Rocketman pose or something using half a flight stand, that might work. But, again, if he counts as a bike he ABSOLUTELY has to be on a bike base.

I'm cool with it... as long as you let me use this poker chip as a land raider >

kidding

I think to get greater acceptance, you should put him on a bike base. Alternatively, you could make him as tall as a bike is long, and have an equal, but different LOS affect