Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Next week I have a game scheduled against our one 'Nid player. He has an extremely shooty list. I don't know the entire thing but I know he runs 3x zoanthropes and Elite shooty 'fexes, hive tyrant and guard, 3 squads of 8 genestealers, 3 lictors, and of course a jillion 'gaunts. And I believe he said his set up will allow his entire army to either have scout or infiltrate, I can't remember which.

My list is as follows:

Lash Sorcerer w/ Wings
Lash Sorcerer w/ Wings

3 obliterators
3 obliterators
3 obliterators

11 Plague Marines with plasma gun x 2, powerfist, personal icon, combi-melta
11 Plague Marines with plasma gun x 2, powerfist, personal icon, combi-melta
11 Plague Marines with plasma gun x 2, powerfist, personal icon, combi-melta

I do not plan on changing my list: I don't like the idea of customizing to my opponent.

I typically hide my sorcs in the PM squads to give my oblitertors free reign to bring the plasma cannon pain after Lash is resolved. What strategy would you suggest against a list like this? I know the pie plates of doom need to go but how do I stay out of hth long enough to make that happen?

Is this a Friendly game or part of some competative event?

Because in all honesty your list reeks of 'ard boyz..... I would bet if you show up to FLGS with a list like this more than a couple times you will end up not having anyone to play with.

Its a tough list to beat. Watch out for infiltrating Genestealers outflanking your army. They can easily silence your (big) guns and thus eventually give you a hard time.

Clthomps wrote:Is this a Friendly game or part of some competative event?

Because in all honesty your list reeks of 'ard boyz..... I would bet if you show up to FLGS with a list like this more than a couple times you will end up not having anyone to play with.

It's not a tourney but nobody gets butthurt by tourney-level lists. His is just as evil as mine.

is there more than the few limited cheese\tourney lists out there? I've seen like maybe 3-5 lists, that are all basically the same thing. I was hoping a game as old as this one would have a certain balance in its depth. And I came into 5th edition wanting to make a Warboss + Nob biker army (see my first post ever on the board) and come to find out THAT is one of the tourney lists... wierdness.

It's not a tourney but nobody gets butthurt by tourney-level lists. His is just as evil as mine.

There is a time and a place for everything, a list like this is for a tourney. Friendly play amongst friends should be free of this kind of crap. I can tell you if he showed up here to play with a list like that he would find himself short of opponents real quick. This kind of list is what ruins Local gaming store attendance, because you get 2 types of people, the people who play for fun and the people who do anything to win. Look at all the posts requarding players who have that must win mentality I have seen at least 5 posts in the last month about it, and every time the answer is to stop playing with that person. I have seen this happen many times before, all of the friendly players choose to stay home and play with friends because they don't want to see "That Guy" at there LGS. So were does that leave you? With a Game store full of "that guy", and forget about new players, who would want to blow $400 on an army if the only one you know playing at the LGS is "that guy".

In short don't be "that guy".... and if you don't know if you are "that guy" heres a brief guide:


If your codex has access to 20+ units with 100+ different options, and you choose 3 different units all with the same options, you are "that guy"

If your codex has access to 20+ units with 100+ different options, and you choose 3 different units all with the same options, you are "that guy"

Some codices are more one-dimensional than one would expect.

And now back to the original posters question......

set up in middle of table if line of site allows, this will protect you from out flanking gene stealers at least alittle bit. you might also put your plague marines on your flanks so that they are the first thing for the stealers to charge( plague marines can tie up gene stealer rather well actually). that hive tyrant is goig to be your biggest threat in my opinion, if it makes h2h your in trouble, the fexes arn't much of a threat for you at range because you get both armor and feel no pain against any shooty weapons he may take. biggest thing your going to have to worry about is zanothrops,( in my opinion, your biggest threat next to tyrant) and not getting you obliterators tied up in h2h by all his lttle gaunts. If his monsterous creatures make h2h your toast.

I think its good that your local club has players that like playing tourny lists at least some of the time. Ours is the same way.

Clthomps wrote:

It's not a tourney but nobody gets butthurt by tourney-level lists. His is just as evil as mine.

There is a time and a place for everything, a list like this is for a tourney. Friendly play amongst friends should be free of this kind of crap. I can tell you if he showed up here to play with a list like that he would find himself short of opponents real quick. This kind of list is what ruins Local gaming store attendance, because you get 2 types of people, the people who play for fun and the people who do anything to win. Look at all the posts requarding players who have that must win mentality I have seen at least 5 posts in the last month about it, and every time the answer is to stop playing with that person. I have seen this happen many times before, all of the friendly players choose to stay home and play with friends because they don't want to see "That Guy" at there LGS. So were does that leave you? With a Game store full of "that guy", and forget about new players, who would want to blow $400 on an army if the only one you know playing at the LGS is "that guy".

In short don't be "that guy".... and if you don't know if you are "that guy" heres a brief guide:


If your codex has access to 20+ units with 100+ different options, and you choose 3 different units all with the same options, you are "that guy"

Alrighty, while this is undoudetly off topic, I'll address this briefly:

I'm not playing at your store.
I'm playing at my store.
Where nobody minds building powerful lists.
In fact we encourage powerful lists.
Because we enjoy playing with and against powerful lists.

On the internets, I think the worst, "That Guy" to be is the one who:
A. Ignores the topic to promote his own agenda.
B. Tries to talk about something with which he is completely unfamiliar, i.e. a metagame environment where he has never played a single game.

Brother Condon wrote:And now back to the original posters question......

set up in middle of table if line of site allows, this will protect you from out flanking gene stealers at least alittle bit. you might also put your plague marines on your flanks so that they are the first thing for the stealers to charge( plague marines can tie up gene stealer rather well actually). that hive tyrant is goig to be your biggest threat in my opinion, if it makes h2h your in trouble, the fexes arn't much of a threat for you at range because you get both armor and feel no pain against any shooty weapons he may take. biggest thing your going to have to worry about is zanothrops,( in my opinion, your biggest threat next to tyrant) and not getting you obliterators tied up in h2h by all his lttle gaunts. If his monsterous creatures make h2h your toast.

I think its good that your local club has players that like playing tourny lists at least some of the time. Ours is the same way.

Are you suggesting that I castle, then?

People can bring very hard list and still be fun to play by giving advice and tips during gameplay or generally being nice guys. There are also people with crappy lists who try to cheat on movement, rules, give up after 2 turns, turn your win into their loss and so on.

If you get the dawn of war scenario and nids get the first turn there is a chance the genestealers are in combat the first turn. That means the lashes are not going to do anything. But that is just me speculating.

This is none the less a hard list but it would be a lot harder with two deamonprinces and rhinos to the plauge marines so give the guy a break.

Alrighty, while this is undoudetly off topic, I'll address this briefly:

I'm not playing at your store.
I'm playing at my store.
Where nobody minds building powerful lists.
In fact we encourage powerful lists.
Because we enjoy playing with and against powerful lists.

On the internets, I think the worst, "That Guy" to be is the one who:
A. Ignores the topic to promote his own agenda.
B. Tries to talk about something with which he is completely unfamiliar, i.e. a metagame environment where he has never played a single game.

The only reason that you have a metagame like that is because you will not even entertain the thought of not power gaming. GW does not take the time to play test "extreme" lists to make sure that all lists are balanced, that being said you should not bother even playing a game with this list just assume you will win, a twelve-year old could win with a list like this against any force of nids.

Clthomps, the game is nowhere near as rock-paper-scissors as you assume. Perhaps you should spend more time addressing the topic at hand than bullying people into playing 40k the way you think they should be playing.


With regard to the OP, focus on the Genestealers first--they're going to be in your face pretty quick with fleet or by outflanking. They are the major CC threat--either lash + plasma cannon them or lash them into rapid fire range of the plague marines (just make sure they die). You can completely ignore the firepower from the spine gaunts with your T5, 3+ save, and 4+ FNP. He might charge you with them to tie you up, but you'll destroy them in CC. Intermingle your units so that he can't charge less than 2 at a time. You'll win the combat by a huge margin and cause lots of extra wounds, or make him retreat if he's out of synapse range. Either way, you win.

Just make sure you don't let your Obliterators get tied up by Gaunts. That will lose you the game fast.

The Tyrant squad should be lower priority--he'll probably advance towards you with it so eventually you'll be in rapid fire plasma range. That's when you let loose combined with your Obliterators and knock out the unit.

The Carnifexes and Zoanthropes are the big shooting threats. The former is dangerous because of S8 ordnance templates which negate your FNP and the latter is dangerous due to negating your armor save. Do your best to use terrain to deny these guys adequate LOS if you can. The Fexes aren't very dangerous in CC if they're geared for shooting so your powerfists will kill them eventually (I usually have no trouble killing shooty fexes with my tactical squads after softening them up with a round of shooting).

Thats all very subjective. I've always enjoyed taking on power lists in whatever game I play. Just because GW suppossedly doesn't play test to balance every unit, that doesn't make a power gamer wrong. If a 12 year old has a power gaming list, why not take your own power gaming list and woop em with it.

If someone likes WH40k, likes to win, and likes a certain army build. AND the designers somehow made that army\unit\build unbalanced... then who is at fault for the situations you describe where no one is having fun? Personally, I blame the designers... who should be cruising the forums, picking up on these circling discussions.
For me, I got back into WH40k to see what 5th edition was like, and build a Nob Bike army due to the new Ork minis, and Forgeworld Ork bikers. Cheesy or not, I just happened to want to create an army that is from all accounts very powerful. So, it my fault if I build the army that I wanted from the get go, and having it be kickass???

But thats just me. not you.

and apologies for being off topic. And obviously Clthomps I understand you've witnessed or been in games that have sucked due to powergaming, and I don't think you're bullying people into your train of thought... But I really do think that your annoyance should be directed at the game design, as oppossed to players who are playing within the rules made. I've fought many power lists that are boring to play against, and of course I make fun of my opponent, but after the battle I am really just asking "why did they make those rules that way???"

Clthomps wrote:

Alrighty, while this is undoudetly off topic, I'll address this briefly:

I'm not playing at your store.
I'm playing at my store.
Where nobody minds building powerful lists.
In fact we encourage powerful lists.
Because we enjoy playing with and against powerful lists.

On the internets, I think the worst, "That Guy" to be is the one who:
A. Ignores the topic to promote his own agenda.
B. Tries to talk about something with which he is completely unfamiliar, i.e. a metagame environment where he has never played a single game.

The only reason that you have a metagame like that is because you will not even entertain the thought of not power gaming. GW does not take the time to play test "extreme" lists to make sure that all lists are balanced, that being said you should not bother even playing a game with this list just assume you will win, a twelve-year old could win with a list like this against any force of nids.

I just really don't understand why you're being so vehement about all of this. If my friends, many of whom are extremely skilled at the game, all wanted to play non-competitive lists then they would. And then I would too.

You don't know us at all. You have no idea what we will or will not entertain. All you know is that somebody showed up at your store and stomped your kiester with a competitive list and now you're lashing out at me. Show me on the doll where the bad man beat you with his tourney list.

Danny,

That's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.

heheh... show me on the doll. That's awseome, even better in a Butters voice

ueberyak wrote:

Clthomps wrote:

It's not a tourney but nobody gets butthurt by tourney-level lists. His is just as evil as mine.

There is a time and a place for everything, a list like this is for a tourney. Friendly play amongst friends should be free of this kind of crap. I can tell you if he showed up here to play with a list like that he would find himself short of opponents real quick. This kind of list is what ruins Local gaming store attendance, because you get 2 types of people, the people who play for fun and the people who do anything to win. Look at all the posts requarding players who have that must win mentality I have seen at least 5 posts in the last month about it, and every time the answer is to stop playing with that person. I have seen this happen many times before, all of the friendly players choose to stay home and play with friends because they don't want to see "That Guy" at there LGS. So were does that leave you? With a Game store full of "that guy", and forget about new players, who would want to blow $400 on an army if the only one you know playing at the LGS is "that guy".

In short don't be "that guy".... and if you don't know if you are "that guy" heres a brief guide:


If your codex has access to 20+ units with 100+ different options, and you choose 3 different units all with the same options, you are "that guy"

Alrighty, while this is undoudetly off topic, I'll address this briefly:

I'm not playing at your store.
I'm playing at my store.
Where nobody minds building powerful lists.
In fact we encourage powerful lists.
Because we enjoy playing with and against powerful lists.

On the internets, I think the worst, "That Guy" to be is the one who:
A. Ignores the topic to promote his own agenda.
B. Tries to talk about something with which he is completely unfamiliar, i.e. a metagame environment where he has never played a single game.

So your store is now "That store"? XD

Obviously depends on the mission but in KP or tokens in the middle of the board I would castle and wait for out flankers to come in for the first part of the game.

Shoot the out flankers up and then deal with the reast of the army.

IF you end up playing the mission with an objective in each of your deployemnts zones you have to play more aggressively.

I think it will be easy for you to defend your objective but difficult to challenge his.

If your opponent deploys forward, you may consider dropping some oblits deep in his deployment zone to contest his objective...

Walking up the middle isn't going to work. A solid Nidzilla list will walk over you plague marines becasue they ignore or reduce the usefulness of you Toughness, and feel no pain. That and guants can tar bit the crap out of you.

Pete

PS - =I also much more enjoy playing great players with the most competitive lists in the game. Without a lot of practice against these list there is not way you can contend for a GT overall win. Also, top tier lists tend to be pretty balanced against eachother. I find it's harder to balance "weaker lists" so the games tend to be more of a blow out one way or the other and thus less fun to me.

Or you could Lash the objective towards you haha.
Beardy lists die eventually. Now it's your problem when you have a whole expensive selection of models that are no longer beardy and exstinct in your point of view.

storm knight wrote:Or you could Lash the objective towards you haha.
Beardy lists die eventually. Now it's your problem when you have a whole expensive selection of models that are no longer beardy and exstinct in your point of view.

Yeah...What will I ever do with Obliterators and plague marines? I'm sure pretty soon they'll be totally obsolete...

yes, castle your plague marines to keep your obliterators and sorcerers out of combat. ( I guess i am not entirely sure of castling defenition, but if it mean move marines to protect other units then yes.) can you give deamon princes lash? if so they may be a better choice than sorcerers against tyrnids. Just a thought. good point made abouve those gaunts are going to be a problem in h2h because they wiil tie you down for the MC's

I have been waffling on sorcs vs. DPs (yes, they can have Lash). They have pros and cons but the biggest one bother me atm is the sorc's difficulties with injuring high-toughness and armored models.

Sorry for going a bit OT but I feel I have to bring some positive vibes into this and for "top tier lists"

As I begun my tabletop career some years ago I started with WHF Imperium. I bought the dex, borrowed me a rulebook and build up a list without having a clue.
I just picked together what I thougt was good - not knowing what other armies could field - and build up my "Powerlist". I bought the minis, painted them and learned the rules during the painting seesions breaks and in my freetime. After I had my army ready I went to a local store with a friend who brought me into the TT Scene and played my first "armageddon".
Before the battle started I thought I would beat anything anyone could field because my list is so UBAR. I played vs a pretty strong Chaos Warrior list who completely massacred me in turn 3. I will never forget that massacre and my horrible feeling after. But my opponent took me aside after and explained what I did wrong and why I got massacred. So with his help and some mates help I was able to field stronger lists and learned fast what it takes to beat strong lists. After that I had a ton of fun playing so called power lists vs other power lists or even crush rookies and show them what they did wrong. Sure, some of those top tier lists or even the majority isnt very fluffy and I dont like those unfluffy lists but thats another story.
In the end I have much more fun to play strong lists games who stay within the fluff.
Enjoy your game and prey the Nidzilla player wont take elite cc fexes with instead of shooty ones.

Papadoc wrote:If you get the dawn of war scenario and nids get the first turn there is a chance the genestealers are in combat the first turn. That means the lashes are not going to do anything. But that is just me speculating.

Only if you deploy where they can get to you?

You can't outflank on turn 1.

What are you going to do if the Tyranid player brings The Shadow in The Warp?

If you're just going to take the Lash of Submission, I'd suggest taking Daemon Princes instead since the point of Sorcerers is to give you a variety of powers with their Familiars and the Instant Killing power with their Force Weapons.

If your strategy is to hide the Sorcerers in the Plague Marines, then it might be something to reinvest his Wings in a Familiar and a power like Gift of Chaos or Warptime that you can use in close combat.

ueberyak wrote:

Clthomps wrote:

Alrighty, while this is undoudetly off topic, I'll address this briefly:

I'm not playing at your store.
I'm playing at my store.
Where nobody minds building powerful lists.
In fact we encourage powerful lists.
Because we enjoy playing with and against powerful lists.

On the internets, I think the worst, "That Guy" to be is the one who:
A. Ignores the topic to promote his own agenda.
B. Tries to talk about something with which he is completely unfamiliar, i.e. a metagame environment where he has never played a single game.

The only reason that you have a metagame like that is because you will not even entertain the thought of not power gaming. GW does not take the time to play test "extreme" lists to make sure that all lists are balanced, that being said you should not bother even playing a game with this list just assume you will win, a twelve-year old could win with a list like this against any force of nids.

I just really don't understand why you're being so vehement about all of this. If my friends, many of whom are extremely skilled at the game, all wanted to play non-competitive lists then they would. And then I would too.

You don't know us at all. You have no idea what we will or will not entertain. All you know is that somebody showed up at your store and stomped your kiester with a competitive list and now you're lashing out at me. Show me on the doll where the bad man beat you with his tourney list.

Just ignore the troll...

yea thats why i wonder if DP's would be a better choice against nids especially. Deamon princes are beat down artists if equiped right. I would imagine that the nid player is pretty confedent with his tyrant, imagine his disapointment when you charge him with two DP's (winged perhaps) and smoke his silly tyrant guard and tyrant in one turn of combat. that would be worth it even if you lost lol.

Moderator:

The topic of where you play has been raised -- fair enough. That point is made.

The thread will be more productive if we stick to discussion of the game merits of the list rather than the motivations for taking it.

Mod out:

I play Nidzilla, and I've played against this sort of Chaos list before.

People always fear the Genestealers. I think they're one of the more overrated models in the game. They're good, but they're not as incredible as people presume. Yes, you will need to deal with them early (as has been said), but only because they'll get there quick. If you have to take a charge then kill them in CC, it's not going to be the end of the world. Plague Marines will win a combat thanks to their resilience and Power Fist.

Watch the Dakkafexes. They put a huge volume of wounds down, and they can kill Oblits, even withoot AP. They're really the engine of the list. THey may want to assault your Oblits if they have enough wounds, so watch that.

Watch the Zoanthropes. They have an S5AP3 Blast, which is a great way to kill Plague Marines. Most people I play ignore them. If you stay in cover, you can do that, but if you're in the open, they can quickly take off Plague Marines.

Keep the Oblits spaced oot. They can mostly laugh off Barbed Stranglers and Venom Cannons, but should they fail a wound, Instant Death.

I'm not really sure how you should use the Lash. The guy I played used his, he pulled some Gaunts right into place to get smoked, but they were WoN, so it wasn't a major gain. He then immediately got shot down by a pair of Dakkafexes, because he had to get too close to use the power.