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Not that this is a big issue, but I've always wondered if the Imperial Armour books from FW were 'legal'. I suppose my concern would be buying a FW Repressor for my SoB army only to find out I'd have to play it as a Rhino instead. I suppose the base concern is regarding the additional units/gear/vehicles that the Imperial Armour books give an army and the legality of that.

In the same vein, is there any way to get IA information easily and at least moderately legally?

We have a very open campaign whose rules will allow IA within certain constraints (no Titans, for example), but with the large number of editions and their relative rarity (I can't just go to the store and thumb through a copy) they're almost impossible to browse casually. I don't want to go steal them from some download site, but I'm not going to buy every edition of IA just to see if there's something neat I'd want to incorporate.

Any input will be helpful.

Thanks.

I support downloading IA books illegally so long as you buy the rules for any models you actually purchase, and for exactly for the reasons you stated above. FW stuff is awesome, make a fantastic showpiece for any army, but is also inhibitively expensive. Are they really expecting you to buy extremely expensive rulebooks FIRST, just so you can know if that 800 dollar model you just bought is actually worth a damn on the playing field?

Beyond that, IA is generally considered legal, but its all "oppenent's consent" many of the rules are rather broken <cough deathstorm drop pods cough>, and you may want to check with your opponents before fielding.

They're "legal" in friendly games & tournaments that allow them.

The only way to get the information LEGALLY is to buy the book or have a friend buy it, then look at his copy. If you just want to peruse a copy, you can always see if a FLGS (doubtful) or Battle Bunker (if it's close to you) has a copy on the shelf.


Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:The only way to get the information LEGALLY is to buy the book or have a friend buy it, then look at his copy. Eric

Right, and that's great in a perfect world, but GW's archaic distribution methods and incredibly limited supply outlets make this a virtual impossibility (as I have no friends and won't buy the book before knowing what's in it).

Thanks for the reply, appreciate the info from both of you.

Well, definately good info to know...thanks for the input. I'd likely buy or borrow a copy so I know the rules if I ever get around to getting those parts for the Repressor. OFC, I really should start painting some of my SoB army first...

'Legal' is a bad term. The rules in the Imperial Armour books require your opponent's consent, if that's what your asking.

Ghaz wrote:'Legal' is a bad term. The rules in the Imperial Armour books require your opponent's consent, if that's what your asking.

Yeah, I see what you mean with that. I suppose GW has no problem with them since FW has been able to continue publishing the books. I'm not exactly sure of what kind of relationship the two companies have and it really doesn't matter tbh. Given you'd want your opponents consent, would the books sorta fall under 'House Rules'? I guess I wonder what the GW game designers actually think of it and whether they have any input as to what FW decides to publish in these books. Again..not that it matters...only your opponents agreement does.

Forge World is a subsidiary of Games Workshop.

VERY few tournaments allow the use of FW rules/vehicles (of the "major" tournaments, only Adepticon comes to mind).

It says right in the FW books they are legal.

You need your opponent's consent as much as you need it to play in the first place. Tournaments outline what is legal or illegal in their rules. A tournament could make lash and doom illegal if they wanted to.

If it isn't a flyer or superheavy, if someone really doesn't want you using your GW sanctioned FW model and associated rules, tell him you don't want his marines using bolters. It's just as an asinine argument.

Sarcasm aside, it's a gentlemanly thing to do to offer up what is in your list. It isn't required but I wouldn't let tournaments dissuade you from buying it.

At the possible cost of dragging this thread off-topic, I have a tangential question regarding the Imperial Armory books.

There are some races that were respresented in the old Forge World books, Orks in particular, that are not represented in the new IA vol.X books. Is it possible to play with the outdated rules for your models if no new model rules exist?

the_trooper wrote:It says right in the FW books they are legal.

You need your opponent's consent as much as you need it to play in the first place. Tournaments outline what is legal or illegal in their rules. A tournament could make lash and doom illegal if they wanted to.

If it isn't a flyer or superheavy, if someone really doesn't want you using your GW sanctioned FW model and associated rules, tell him you don't want his marines using bolters. It's just as an asinine argument.

Sarcasm aside, it's a gentlemanly thing to do to offer up what is in your list. It isn't required but I wouldn't let tournaments dissuade you from buying it.

Sorry, but that's patently false. From the foreword of Imperial Armour Apocalypse, written by Warwick Kinrade:

As far as we are concerned Codexes and the rulebook are official, everything else is up to the players to use and ignore at will. Want to play on a ruined city board using the City of Death rules variant? Fine. Want to play on a ruined city board without using the rules variants, just using the rules as published in the 40K rulebook? Also fine. The only thing that matters is that both players know this before they start, and both players agree that's the way they want to play the game. So is City of Deat official? You can't use it in a tournament! The Imperial Armour rules are just the same...

So there you go, straight from the horse's mouth. If you want to use the Imperial Armour rules, you do need your opponent's permission.

Allowing forgeworld models is a bit like an arms race. They're so expensive that they typically HAVE to have good rules, unless the models are just sooo good that they sell themselves.
Allowing models like baneblades (though i guess these are plastic now...), titans, trigons, and that giant-ass absolutely terrifying bloodthirster really require your opponent to tailor their lists to a degree to even be able to use them, and ideally would have something of their own from FW to counteract it.
The rule in my gaming group is "if you get to have a FW model then I get to have a FW model too." I mean have you ever had to deal with a trigon deepstriking into the middle of your army? It's utterly terrifying, the thing's just bloody huge. It takes some of the fun out of the game being on the receiving end of that without a sweet-but-stupidly-expensive toy of your own.

And that's what the game is really all about right? If a tournament allows you to use it, then cool (though most don't). But for a friendly game? Ask your buddies if it's alright first, otherwise you're just kind of being a dick.

"It says right in the FW books they are legal."
&
"You need your opponent's consent as much as you need it to play in the first place. Tournaments outline what is legal or illegal in their rules. A tournament could make lash and doom illegal if they wanted to."

100% TRUE


I don't own the FW Apoc book, but I do own all of the others. Here's a little quote from IA:2

PG7 under "Using this book".

"Since the publication of the first book I've had numerous questions concerning the "legality" of the models and rules./ It seems appropriate to use this space to clarify this issue. The rules included here are mostly variants of the codex versions. A predator is a predator etc... From my feedback it seems players have no difficulty in including these IA model variants in their games, it is only when it comes to new vehicles that problems of "legality" or "oficial-dom" occur. The very idea that sopme vehicles are "legal" and some not seems odd to me" (Warwick).

"The idea that an ork warboss or eldar farseer can somehow object to the LR Helios or sentry gun s is strange."

"In the past we have advised players to seek opponents permission, but this seems AN UNSATISFACTORY SOLUTION." (caps mine)

"Ofcourse you need your opponents permission to play any game, unless you intend to force people to play you!"

5 more paragraphs

"All this goes out the window when it comes to tournaments. Tournaments have their own rules so whether you can use IA vehicles and rules is up to the organizers."

Besides being marked FW, all of my IA books also have the GW logo and 40K symbol, just like my official codex. Yes, FW IA are official, but I wish GW would just add that in the 40K RULEBOOK as well.

And apparently his stance has changed. Imperial Armour Apocalypse is the newest book, and thus takes precedence. His current stance is that both players have a say in any rules other than the codices and the rulebook. What he said in the past is inconsequential. It's ludicrous to try and use a fluff excuse to cheat your opponent, which is exactly what your doing. Fluff has nothing to do with both players deciding what rules to use.

The CURRENT stance from Forgeworld is that you need your opponent's permission. Past statements do not change that.

Thanks Flagg for the info. As is obvious, I don't own any of the Imp Armor books and I'm by no means making any judgements on people who use FW stuff from those books. It's just good to know, beforehand, how GW and the community at large perceives things like this especially given GW's tenacious attitude towards its IP. I can't imagine anything I would object to in a game using FW stuff and there are certainly lots of things I'd like to have from them myself

'Legal with consent' is like the old vehicle design rules.
It's like demanding sex from a sixteen year old because you can. Printing it in the rulebook would allow people to make unreasonable demands under the guise of 'obtaining consent'.

Not that I don't let people use IA rules against me or anything. That's just how I see it.

Ghaz wrote:And apparently his stance has changed. Imperial Armour Apocalypse is the newest book, and thus takes precedence. His current stance is that both players have a say in any rules other than the codices and the rulebook. What he said in the past is inconsequential. It's ludicrous to try and use a fluff excuse to cheat your opponent, which is exactly what your doing. Fluff has nothing to do with both players deciding what rules to use.

The CURRENT stance from Forgeworld is that you need your opponent's permission. Past statements do not change that.

Actually, IA6 is the newest book, so if someone could post the preface rant from IA6 to see what the "current stance" is.

NP Rym. I don't expect you to make judgements on any players based on the rules they use. I'm just trying to give you the other side of the coin.

"It's ludicrous to try and use a fluff excuse to cheat your opponent, which is exactly what your doing. Fluff has nothing to do with both players deciding what rules to use."

Everything in my 1st post with "" around it is a direct quote from the book written by Warwick himself. No fluff excuses from me. I'm cheating nobody, nor telling anybody how to play.

Ironic that the FW Apoc book, a supplement to the rule set allowing 57 Abbadons in a single list, would need opponent's permission.

He can say whatever he wants in IA Apoc, it's a different ruleset just as cityfight is. 40K is the core rule set. From what I can see, every book, other than IA:1, IA: Apoc and the latest IA:6 have specific forewards confirming the rules are good to go.

IA1 doesn't need it because they didn't think it was needed. An assumption by me...

IA Apoc is a different rule set so doesn't apply to 40K core just like the rest of the APOC rules don't apply.

IA6- dunno, but nothing's mentioned one way or the other.

The fact of the matter is this. Regardless of which camp you find yourself, you're not going to be able to use anything, IA or otherwise, unless you have someone to play against.

Theoretically, GW could have put ALL FW IS GOOD TO GO across the rulebook and some people would whine about it.

I've found that titans, super heavies and flyers are left to Apoc games where it's a dump everything you've got fest. With a few exceptions, most items are extremely expensive for what they do in game, though there are a few notable exceptions... cyclops, inferno rounds etc... I suggest getting your hands on a copy of the books and deciding for yourself.

Upon further review, IA6, pg 4, 5th para

"Over the years FW has added many models... Rules for these are in our IA Apoc book. Should you wish to use them in STANDARD 40K games, the rules are also included here. It's our aim to have just one set of rules for each model" (Wish GW home office felt the same)

"The decision is up to the players if they want to include warmachines, aircraft and/or gargantuan creatures. It's recommended palyers agree this beforehand and not bring their reaver titans and expect to play it without prior agreement."

I think everyone can agree a titan without prior copnsent is just silly. On the other hand, Leman Russ with a different turret weapon pays at a premium while still falling well within the scope of the vehicle, meaning it aint breaking the game in any way.

And I stand by my statements. I don't care if it's him for trying to use them in the first place or you for supporting him, it's pitiful to try and cheat your opponent out of an equal say in the rules used to play the game.

And your statement about the foreword to IA: Apoc only applying to Apocalypse games is patently false as well. Read it again:

As far as we are concerned Codexes and the rulebook are official, everything else is up to the players to use and ignore at will.

Everything other than the codices and the rulebook are official. Not 'codices, rulebooks and the Imperial Armour books'. It most definitely applies to normal games of 40K. GW has made a ruling, IMHO and have made Warwick Kinrade present it. Forgeworld rules require your opponent's consent. He has as much a right to decide what rules are used in a game as you do.

And I stand by mine, backed by the latest book. Deal with it.

And how did you come to that conclusion?

"The decision is up to the players if they want to include warmachines, aircraft and/or gargantuan creatures. It's recommended palyers agree this beforehand and not bring their reaver titans and expect to play it without prior agreement."

That supports MY position that you require your opponent's consent and totally invalidates your argument that you can bring whatever you want as long as your opponent agreed to a game. I think you're the one who needs to learn how to 'deal' with it.

Flagg,

One of the things you have to understand is that a few years ago when Jervis took over, the goal of the company has been to get a core set of rules published that is designed for 1,500 pt. pick-up-and-play games. Then on top of that they wanted to come out with a series of expansions that allow players to add extra rules as they see fit to their games of 40k.

To that end, they removed stuff like 'Kill Team' from the new rulebook because that is exactly the kind of thing that should be found in an expansion rather than core rulebook, in their opinion (all of this comes from Jervis's seminar at Adepticon 2 years ago).

Cities of Death, Apocalypse, etc. are 'expansions' that players can choose to utilize in their games if they want. From Imperial Armor Volume 5 on (IA5, IAApoc & now IA6) the Imperial Armor books are also now stamped with the 'expansion' tag on their front cover, just like Cities of Death and Apocalypse.


So put simply, Imperial Armor is an expansion to the game of 40k, and with all expansions players need to agree upon what expansions (if any) they are okay with using.

I'm a big proponent of Imperial Armor, but frankly I don't see this as any kind of issue. I regularly show up to play games at stores and I say, "hey, do you mind if I use my Imperial Armor XXX". If they say 'no', then they're just not the kind of person I want to be playing against anyway.

I mean, it really isn't any different than someone showing up and saying "I don't want to play against Orks". In the end both players have to agree upon what rules they want to follow for their games, and the potential use of Imperial Armor really isn't any different.

If two adults can't come to a consensus as to what rules to play a game of little metal men, then they BOTH have issues. The point is that they BOTH have an equal say in the rules being used to play that game of little metal (or plastic) men.

I dont really see how you cant see a diffrence between "I dont want to play Orks" or "I dont want to play that optional rules Titan". From my point of view there is a world of diffrence there.

Btw. if you really like those rules and think they are about the same as playing Orks.. Why arent IA legal in adepticon that you seem to be having a pretty heavy hand in?

Kallbrand wrote:I dont really see how you cant see a diffrence between "I dont want to play Orks" or "I dont want to play that optional rules Titan". From my point of view there is a world of diffrence there.

Btw. if you really like those rules and think they are about the same as playing Orks.. Why arent IA legal in adepticon that you seem to be having a pretty heavy hand in?

i think you're missing his point. If I may.........If you show up at a local store (which is what he said) and ask if your potential opponent cares if you use your FW stuff and they say no, then you dont have a game. enough said. if you show up at a local store and say "Hey I think orks suck and I dont wanna play anyone with orks" and the only open player has an ork army, then you dont have a game. and if there is a player with a non-ork army who agrees to play you then you DO have a game. enough said.

An expansion is just that...an expansion. If both players don't agree to it, then they don't play. And hopefully they both move on to other opponents who will play them and their lists, or one of them will give concent to the other player and they hash it out like gentlemen. either way you cant make someone play you a game. And has been stated to death, most tounament wont allow FW stuff, so thats a moot arguement anyway. Unnless you're one of those people that isn't happy unless you're bitchin about one thing or another....and if thats the case you are as irritating as my sister-in-law. also enough said. So whats all the damn fuss about here anyway? Just find someone how agrees with you and your style of play and be happy gamers damnit! lol.

~Bart

I have thankfully learned quite alot, at least enough to curb any fears I might have over buying a FW exclusive item. By exclusive, I mean anything with rules only in the IA books. It's certainly good to know FW is a subsidiary of GW as well, which settles any of the fear of GW one day going..."FW stuff is not viable".

I really perceived no discussion beyond this, though I certainly see that the issue is important:
1. Asking your opponent before a game to use your FW stuff...
2. Using your FW stuff in a game because it's 'legal' regardless of opponents knowledge...

Definately a serious thing to think about and discuss. My own experience with this is the first Apoc game I played. Watching someone place that Baneblade on the table was a bit disheartening. The real issue for me, at that moment, was not knowing any of the rules about the model. TBH, I didn't know any of the Apoc rules either so it really was silly of me to agree to a game using that supplement. It was still a fun game however.

Personally, I agree with the opponents permission, for two reasons.

First is familiarity with the IA stuff. The books are pricey, the models more so. There's going to be a lot of people who are rather unfamiliar with the rules and units, and to expect someone to agree to play against something they haven't even heard of, just isn't something I believe is right.

Second, is there is a large disparity between the forces that are represented by the IA books. I'll grant that it's called Imperial Armor, and that there is a great call for more imperial stuff, so it makes sense to a certain degree. But, with so few options available to the other armies out there, it seems a bit lopsided to be able to pull out so many options for non-apocalypse games that your opponent just doesn't have the ability to do so for. There aren't any variant monoliths for example, and while I admit I haven't looked through the actual books, the website does seem to have very little for the non-imperial armies that doesn't fall either into flier, or superheavy, in some way.

When the supplemental stuff becomes more accessible so that everyone has a much easier time to get familiar with it before encountering it, and you're just as likely to hear someone with a non-imperial army say they'd like to use something from IA as well, then I will not mind not needing your opponents permission.