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Is JSJ truly dead in 5th ed or on hiatus until new terrain is made to take advantage of the rules?

JSM?

Jump Shoot Move, sorry meant JMJ.

The tau army needs to be restructured pretty heavily to compete in fifth. One trick ponies like JSJ don't really cut it any more in my opinion. Massed firewarrior blocks backed up by heavier weaponry and LOS blocking transport tanks are probably the wave of the future. With combat consolodation being gone its not as risky placing more points into the firewarriors slot.

return of the static Tau? Fire Warrior Squad backed up with massed Broadsides? Maybe a few suits and transports for objective grabbing and charge blocking?

Jump-shoot-jump is definently crippled in 5th ed, but not totally 100% dead... more like 50% dead for that 4+ :O

Yes, 50% is more like it. Just wondering how long it'll be before terrain cathes up. Will it be soon or not until the tau get a new codex (hopefully in 2 years)? I guess the real question is this. Is GW in the process of abandoning the tau? They've written a rule book that does not inspire people to go out and buy minatures. Because sales tank theres no reason to write a new codex. I don't think they are doing this but similar things have occurred.

I'm not entirely convinced that static is the way to go for Tau. Things get to them way to quickly if they aren't able to be mobile. With Tau being as bad as they are in CC, you can assault multiple units at the same time, and still easily win, taking away much of the dubious advantage the Tau get in not having their opponent be able to consolidate into other squads. Last game I had against Tau only went as long as it did because they did stay mobile. Anything that wasn't able to get away from my daemons deepstriking next to them died quickly.

If a single unit is assaulting multiple others you've deployed wrong. Its very easy to mitigate the multiple assault.

I've had some luck running a mix. A static fire line as bait in the back(xv-88's, FW & or Kroot w/hounds in case of flanking) if objective based set the objective in an intersecting field of fire 12" in front of my most forward unit. The rest goes into mobile( Shas'o, Crisis & Stealth teams, FW in DF, PF's, HH or Skyray, &maybe some Pirahna depending on the build).

It depends a lot on your terrain, and how your local group plays TLOS.

Obviously if you have a lot of solid, opaque terrain, it still works just fine.

Even if you don't, I notice that many people tend to not play by the TLOS RAW. That's to say, even if one guy in their squad can see part of one suit's shoulder, they won't try to take the shot.

And then, even if you do take the shot, the TLOS rules say that the firing models have to be able to see... So if one model can see a piece of suit, but nobody else can, then only he can shoot. May not be perfect, but I'd say it's working...

It's really dependant on forests, I guess... In 4e, they were totally opaque in the rules, so you could work around behind them all day. Now they're never going to block TLOS.

The change also reinforces taking Deathrain suits. With their long range, they make it a lot easier to find a piece of truly opaque cover to work with.

JSM is not completely dead.
But it works not as reliable as in the 4th ed.
The reason is that terrain does not block TLOS and terrain blocking TLOS is often rare;
at the GT final in October there was almost no terrain blocking TLOS.

Do the newer city sets provide better TLOS blocking?

If not do you think there will be new terrain pieces designed to take full advantage of the new ruleset.

How much of JSJ is hurt, not by the lack of TLOS blocking terrain but, the new run rules instead. Seems like I get a full turn less in forward positions befor my suits are flushed out of cover due to risk of being charged.

Any ideas on how to mitigate the the decreased effectiveness.

Yes it is dead. Suits would be better off with the field that decreases spotting distance to 2D6X2 or 3. As far as a infantry screen goes who is going to turn down a kill shot at suits to shoot at firewarriors or kroot especially with high strength weapons. The problem with TLOS with suits is even if thier is decent terrain it is still hard to hide them because of thier size and squad size.

In fairness it's pretty easy to conceal a squad of them behind a devilfish, creating what is essentially a sizeable TLOS blocking terrain piece. Just get behind the back infantry cab section and you're pretty well covered.

And use the shortest flying base possible because regular infantry can still draw LOS thru most flying bases.

Or model the crisis suits as jumping!

Although I play Eldar, similar things have happened with the jetbike JSJ move. It's still possible to JSJ with one or two small units on most tables (hills, etc.) but you're rarely going to be able to hide more than that. I imagine a few single-suit units could get away with it, but that's it.

A question to Tau players: has the demise of Crisis JSJ made Stealth Suits a better choice in your eyes?

The only time I prefer stealth suits over crisis suits is when I know I'm facing guard or gaunts. In those cases the Stealth suits' concentrated fire can put a big dent in a flank. Against any other opponents, the crisis suits are better simply because the rest of the army is S5.

Comment on the modeling....

Purposely remodeling to gain an advantage is definitely not allowed. If anyone I played tried that shenanigans, I'd call bs. And walk out if he tried to argue his case. That is absolutely not allowed.

JSJ.... It can work, as my club does have a fair amount of opaque terrain, but more often then not, something can see them. FW benefit a lot from cover now. I'd lean towards 48+ in most games.

Have to agree with Shuma above...devilfish/hammerheads on short flying bases are the only guaranteed LOS blocking cover for suits now. They move at 12", as do the suits, so it works out rather well. Still limits the suits more than in 4th edition, but it's a decent approach, and nice that it allows the suits to start moving instead of staying stuck behind a piece of terrain.

Savnock wrote:Although I play Eldar, similar things have happened with the jetbike JSJ move. It's still possible to JSJ with one or two small units on most tables (hills, etc.) but you're rarely going to be able to hide more than that. I imagine a few single-suit units could get away with it, but that's it.

A question to Tau players: has the demise of Crisis JSJ made Stealth Suits a better choice in your eyes?

I almost always take them any way. Though the stealth field doesnt protect them as much as I'd like. Some of the new set releases seem to make me think that GW will be eventually releasing generic stealth commanders. Hmph, Stealth with missles or plasma to much?......nnaahhh.

Have you tried guardian jetbike behind falcon /w farseer/ doom&guide. Something I'm toying with right now.

smreferee wrote:Comment on the modeling....

Purposely remodeling to gain an advantage is definitely not allowed. If anyone I played tried that shenanigans, I'd call bs. And walk out if he tried to argue his case. That is absolutely not allowed.

JSJ.... It can work, as my club does have a fair amount of opaque terrain, but more often then not, something can see them. FW benefit a lot from cover now. I'd lean towards 48+ in most games.

It is certainly allowed, to a point.

He's not sawing off body parts and changing the models.

Having a tau transport block LoS just like a SM transport would be fine, the only ones who'd complain are people who want to abuse the new edition changes while tau are designed for last.

JSJ is fine you just have to take a few tanks to hide behind then hope they don't get pen 6'd! Took 6 suits to the GT with 6 tanks and didn't have a single problem hiding my suits and wreaking havoc.

Fallen Angel wrote:JSJ is fine you just have to take a few tanks to hide behind then hope they don't get pen 6'd! Took 6 suits to the GT with 6 tanks and didn't have a single problem hiding my suits and wreaking havoc.

Would you mind posting that army list along with some of your batreps if you have them? No pressure just a simple request.

The guys I game with tell me the tau aren't competitive because the don't show up consistently in the finals(don't know if you made it that far, wasn't implying such, but hope you did).
I argue that the tau attracted a lot of young&inexperienced players due to there ease of modeling and the fact that they just look cool. Then I win pretty regularly with the guys. which quiets them down a little.

Ha dont show up consistently in the finals. In the UK where i play (which may make it different as its no comp or painting scores), they do quite well. IIRC last years final was won by tau in 4th ed and then heat 2 was won by tau. I think the major thing is that besides winning heat 2 this year, I cant recall any tau armies finishing in the top ten, just lash chaos, mechdar and orks. For the record Ive gone 39th and 30th in the finals then 10th and 20th in the heats, winning four games each time out of six and not the brightest spark at 40k either.

I'll post up some bat reps tomorrow when i have time.

The biggest issue i have with tau is claiming objectives effectively now in 5th.

Thank you very much Fallen Angel. Didn't mean to sound like I was diminshing the Tau player abilities(now that I reread last post).
Here in US Tau got a huge following with the kids and back in04-05 GW employees said it was the reason we didn't see them as much as some other armies. Now they say KP kills us,TLOS kills us, Improved cover kills,ect,ect,...
I took tau because I was told it'd be a challenge and that they suit my playing style. I win more than I lose in the groups that I play(when I can)but recently decided I wanted to improve my game. Hence, I joined Dakka to learn from the more experienced.

Also, would like to know what paint scheme you used.

whoops

Its all swings and roundabouts though with 5th ed. Improved cover being the main example as we have two ways around that: markerlights and lots of shooting.

My colour scheme's pretty rubbish, black and red, spot it a mile off. Wish I'd done something more interesting at the time but hey.Maybe I'll redo the army for 6th edition!

List I took to the GT was:

Shas'el with targeting array, AFP, plasma rilfe and multitracker

3 fireknife crisis (plasma, missile, MT)
1 fireknife 4 and a fireknife 3 (team leader with targeting array)

3 squads of 6 FWs in 3 warfish (SMS, targeting array, the works)

2 Railheads (SMS, the works)
Sky Ray (SMS, the works)

Best thing was the sky ray as i think i fired one seeker missile all tournament and it didn't die. Just pumped out two markerlights a turn and made those fireknives absolutely mint (particularly against the templars i played in the last game). The biggest thing i had going was the mobility, to the extent that four games i played had no assault whatsoever. Which has kind of put me off the army a bit!!

I just don't get all this static tau nonsense. Broadsides are good but FWs, very meh in my opinion, gives the opponent something to aim at, which is both good and bad but not for me.

KPs aren't an issue, we played 3 games of that and i comfortably won all three as the 4+ d pod save is excellent. I think lots of people take piranhas and gun drones on their devilfish thats why they think KP is an issue, certainly the two tau players i played did.

Sure someone won an american GT or something with mech tau, four warfish squads or something. If you read Blackmoor's reports from one of the GTs he went to, he played a good mech tau army as well (amazing that kroot are no longer that good!).

I'd say JSJ is extremely risky and should be used if in dire need.

I have horrible luck rolling a lot of when I jump out and back into terrain. I suggest walking out of terrain and jumping back into. It also works well if you don't have drones attached to your squad.

But if for some reason the terrain is a small enough where you can jump over and behind, then for for it. It's effective for cover save if you aren't landing in cover.