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Well, was running some Idea's through my ol' noggin the other day (i know i know, bad idea to start with...) and started writing a 1500 IG list. Basicly it ended up as thus. One 55 man troop platoon, one 50 man conscript squad, one 10 man ratling squad, one command squad, one independent commissar, and one 22 man Last Chancer squad.

Snap the commie into the 50 man conscript squad and POW, 51 unstoppable meat sacks. Any test they take (and fail) pop goes a conscript and they keep on trucking. Inside this 50 man amoeba would shelter 22 power weapon wielding, 3 attacks apiece, last chancers. The chancers automaticly come with krak, so dreadnaughts aren't a problem. The screening conscripts keep them in a healthy 4+ coversave. The conscripts take the charges, allowing the chancers to countercharge. Anyway, my brain went wild thinking of all these possibilites with 72 men charging into.. well, everything it could, and giving only 5 kill points in the process. (conscripts, commie, schaeffer, kage, chancers) Wondering if anyone else have seen Chancers used, or if there is an alternate way of using them.

There's just something tempting about 88ish powerweapon swings coming from a IG unit backed up by 100 doubletapping conscript shots (okay okay, like 33 will hit... but still) =P

oh, the Troop platoon, is just 10 man lascannon squads with camoline. Have them sit in the back, and while the Amoeba is in CC, they could either fire at the tanks / big targets or take the fire and go to ground with a +2 bonus to any coversave. (yes McGurk, thats a 2+ coversave from trees.....)

So anywho, back to my question. Is this possibly an effective tactic using the chancers? or what other uses of the chancers have been proven to work well. (22 man sniper squad?)

Thanks in advance,
-Dee

Hmmmmm.......interesting idea. Will have to sleep on this one.

The main problem I'm seeing is that people will jujst kill the commissar in CC, ending your fearlessness. All it takes is one enemy unit allocating attacks to an IC... This list feels a lot like a one trick pony to me, not to mention that one unit of burna boyz will win this battle pretty much on it's own.

CommissarKhaine, I had thought about the vulnerability of the commie and figured a way around it. Always keep him surrounded with 5 conscripts. 5th ed says Independent Characters move first in CC. 5th ed ALSO says you cannot move THROUGH friendly models. So, 5 conscripts prevent the commie from moving towards the fight, then the conscripts move. As long as the commie is in the center of the conscript blob, he'll never reach CC. Hopefully the Chancers will have helped and ended the CC before it goes too long. Then, in movement phase, get that commie back surrounded and centered.

While yes, any flamer wielding group would create havoc, with a group this large, what are the chances that NONE of them are within assault range? I think this list would fear the same things as any horde army would. But I feel that with lascannons and snipers, it could be able to thin out Chimera's packing a JO with 4 flamers, or Hellhounds, or Trucks loaded with Burnaboyz. Even then, spread them out, and even with 8 men a template still leaves 20 boys plowing through.

Oh, as a side note. Because its over 16 men strong, Schaeffer's group counts as a HQ and 2 Troops. sooooo, does that mean it can claim Table quarters, objectives, etc etc? Schaeffer and Kage (is that pronounced Cage? or Japanese like, Ka-gay?) are IC's. The chancers are not IC's, so are they Troops? Plus the conscripts are troops too. Thats alot of claiming ability fearlessly running towards anything.

I can produce the #'s and points list if you're interested.

-Dee

What do you do versus lash and oblits?

one thing that occured to me overnight was the fact that you're using cameleoline. If you're doing that you have to give everyone possible the cameleoline...that includes your last chancers and your IC Commissar and your conscripts and anyone else you may not have paid the points to give it to. You didnt mention the cameleoline on any of the other units so thats why I bring it up. How does that figure into your list cost-wise?

I just re-read the Last Chancers rules set, and I would surmise after reading it (notice how I didnt say ASSume) that if you take more than 8 models including Schaeffer and Kage that you would be able to claim an objective since they are also counted as a troops selection. At least thats the way i read it.

Would be very interested in hearing how this playtests, especially against a couple different MEQ type forces.

~Bart

Typeline wrote:What do you do versus lash and oblits?

Dont know every army's rules and weapons by heart unfortunatly. What do these things do? What army are they in?

-Dee

Barthonis, from what I understand, Cameleoline uses the term "Guard Infantry Unit". Which is explained as "any command squad with its Officer and any attached advisors, Anti-tank squads, Fire Support squads, Special Weapons squads, Mortar squads, Hardened Veteran squads, normal Infantry Platoon squads and Armoured Fist squads." So, ratlings, special characters, conscripts, and commissars being fielded as IC's in an elite choice are exempt.

The ratlings already has its own variation of cameleoline bought with them. The conscript horde is one unit... I would LOVE to be able to (for a measly 10 points) give 50 men +1 cover, alas I cannot. As for the commissar and the chancers, well, the rule works in my favor.

Here's my quick and dirty numbers in no perticular order:
Commissar: 50
Conscripts: 200
Ratlings: 110
Chancers : 530
Infantry Platoon: 340
Infantry Platoon's Lascannons: 125
Command Platoon: 40
Cameleoline: 70
Honorifica Imperialis: 25
Iron Discipline: 10

Oh, plus Schaeffer comes with the Macharian Cross. For some last minute 12" unit movement. (Never use THAT before either, wonder how effective a piece of wargear it is.) Now to just finish modeling Kage, and getting some paint on my ratlings, and they'll be ready for some playtesting.

-Dee

Well, one massive problem I'm seeing here, amongst many others, is...AV 13.

There is nothing above S:6 in the whole unit, so a Soul Grinder or Ironclad will sit and eat them all.

Another problem is T:7+ monsters, as you can't use grenades on them and you have no powerfists in the squad.

Another problem, which has been addressed, is the fact that these are template bait. Have a look at the 10+ Immolator lists floating about and you'll know what I'm talking about.

If you think krak grenades in one unit are going to take down a horde of light vehicles...well, I'd like to play you.

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread for more info. Sounds VERY interesting.

I think it'd be fun to play and think about, and be a bit of a shock to an opponent the first time they saw it...

However...

Unless it isnt so many points that you still have enough other elements in the army, I think it's just an auto-lose button.

Keep in mind, your opponents can merely...move away from your 6 inch movement blob and shoot at it from range to whittle it down. They're T3 5+ or 6+ save models after all, it wouldn't take long to wipe it.

Keep in mind most folks nowadays are gearing up to play things like horde orks, which may have ~180 T4 6+ save 5+ cover save due to KFF mek ork boyz running forward. I don't think folks will bat an eye at 80 conscripts and guardsmen to take out.

Its interesting, and probably fun, but I don't think it'll be the ultimate force of destruction or anything..the chancers just soak up too many points for a guard army

Hasan wrote:Well, one massive problem I'm seeing here, amongst many others, is...AV 13.

There is nothing above S:6 in the whole unit, so a Soul Grinder or Ironclad will sit and eat them all.

Another problem is T:7+ monsters, as you can't use grenades on them and you have no powerfists in the squad.

Another problem, which has been addressed, is the fact that these are template bait. Have a look at the 10+ Immolator lists floating about and you'll know what I'm talking about.

If you think krak grenades in one unit are going to take down a horde of light vehicles...well, I'd like to play you.

Well Hasan, you're right about ability of a few cirtain units that could tie up the conscripts for the game. Also, yes, this Aboeba could not chew through T7+ creatures. Thats where Im hoping 5 Lascannons and 10 sniper rifles would help in eliminating those targets. This list, for cirtain, isn't a list without any weakness. I haven't played it yet, and I'm sure that I will have to devise tactics to counter those specific threats. Although, not including wargear, or bio-morphs, there is only 4 Creatures that have T7+. (As far as I can tell from the Mini log of stats in the back of the mini rulebook) Two of those creatures are Necron Gods. My local gaming club has alot of MEQ, orcs, and a sprinkleing of nids and other IG. So, for now, I might be safe from being caught in a rush of Soul Grinders. Which, as stated, I would only hope 5 lascannons could destroy/immobilize.

I didnt think about a T7+ CC problem. So thanks for pointing it out. Can you think of anyway to counter it further?

As for the template bait, yeah. Like any horde army its going to have its problem with it. But its still lot of models, with good ol' IG lascannons backing em up.

Has anyone yet figured how you pronouce Kage? "Cage" or "Ka-gay"

-Dee

Its always been pronounced "Cage" by the Ig players I know, but, that could just be what they read

Lash is a CSM power that, if cast, moves the targeted unit 2d6 inches. Obliterators are a CSM heavy support choice that can switch between a number of powerful weapons every turn. The main thing you should be worried about is plasma cannons and heavy flamers. The lash bunches you up while moving you back and the obliterators (usually at a minimum 6 of them) lay down plasma cannons on your now bunched up units, maxing out their hits with their little blast marker. With very few very large units the two lashes can move two back while destroying one of them with obliterators. After that there are Plague marines in rhinos with havoc launchers, double tapping plasma guns at you from the hatch while the Havoc launcher's Str 5 AP 5 blast marker thing is ruining your day.

This list just seems to automatically lose to a very common CSM set up.

lose the independent commissar ... just take kage as a unit of one and join him to your concripts ... congratulations your conscripts now benefit from harsh discipline and will pass all morale, leadership and pinning tests.

... now on to using the last chancers as a close combat unit ... no they cost way too much (cost a SM before they take any thing) so how would i use them?

single guy with a demo charge deep striking is a fun one

heavy weapons teams are another good use (they are BS4)

All Sub-units become fearless etc etc while Schaeffer is alive. No where does it state that Kage has the same power, or that a unit he joins gets it. (The conscripts are not a Chancer sub-unit)

Also, Single Demo charge sub-units would just be giving the enemy free kill points. I used Demo specialist squads back in 4th ed. Deep Strikeing then tossing their demo, but now in 5th ed. That can start racking the kill points against me.

-Dee

Well, after two weeks, got a game in at the local hobby store. Played against a pretty competent opponent playing a Demon Army... with two Soul Grinders. His list is thus:

Keeper of Secrets (Daemonic gaze, Soporific Musk)
3x 18 Daemonettes
The Masque
2x Soulgrinders (w/ phlegm)

I won the starting roll off, picked to go 2nd. He rolled for which half came in, and rolled 1. The Soulgrinders, Masque, and 1 Daemonette squad would await in reserves. The Keeper, and 2 Daemonette squads dropped in, and the game begun. It was Control and Capture, with each of our Objectives being near the corners (to my left)

Not to post a play by play, (and bore you all) here are the highlights.
Turn 1, the Ratlings giving 3 wounds to the Keeper, and 1 Inf squad picking off the last wound. YAY lasguns.
Turn 2 saw no reinforcements for the Daemons, and the Conscript mob gets charged by a daemonette squad. The Ratlings die in assault to the other daemonettes.
The Conscripts go on to survive 3 rounds of CC with the daemonettes before both the chancers and another daemonette squad join the fray. The ensuing CC bloodfest lasts till the end of the game....
Turn 3, a Soulgrinder appears, and blows 11 chancers away with its cannon and reaper (the chancers make cc next turn) In my turn, the Soulgrinder eats Lascannon, blowing out its legs. The Masque comes in and starts moving my Lascannon squads around (closer to his Daemonettes or packing them close for Soulgrinder fire). Going to ground saves some guardsmen, woot 5+ cover save in the open...
Turn 4 last Soulgrinder comes in, fires, misses, eats Lascannon and blows up. Loose Daemonette squad is eating 1 inf squad a turn... Tossing the two command squads at it, whittle it down to something like 7 daemonettes, but with 4 rending attacks each on the charge, they still eat guardsmen.
Turn 5 comes, and the CC fest along the left boarder finally stops with 50 Conscripts, 20 Chancers, Commissar, Kage, Schaeffer, and 31 Daemonettes dead. The remaining 5 consoladate towards his own objective. But still a good 8 inches away... The remaining 7 daemonettes eating my backrow of Lascannon squads is still a good 10 inches away from my last whole squad sitting on MY objective. A 1 or 2 will end it, and win it for me. Dice tumbles and..... 1 !!!! 1 v 0 Final Objective count.

Hindsight showed me that I messed up my positioning with the first charge of daemonettes, the chancers were too far out, and 11 of them ate it before they could get into CC. Luck was a big part of it too. If the Daemons got both Soulgrinders in same turn, I might not have been able to kill/disable them singlely. The Ratlings and Inf squad taking out the Keeper before it hit CC prevented my Right from collapsing as fast as it could have... I'd like to try this list vs a MEQ... but for a first playtest, and vs an army with 2 Soulgrinders and loads of Invulnerable saves (so much for 100points of powerweapons....) I think i pulled off a pretty lucky win. Was biting my nails the whole way.

-Deewalla