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Folks,
I once dabbled in Tyranids a long time ago, but this was back in the 3rd edition with an Old codex. I really did get a kick out of using them, and now it's been such a long time since I've seen or used any, I'm a wee bit tempted to dip my toes back into the gene pool once more!

Before the 5th edition, it seemed Nidzilla lists were pretty much the norm to be competitive - with new rules and the new emphasis on troops, has there been any change in this? i.e. is it now feasible to have a decent compliment of both critters rolling up to a few big monsters? I assume they can hold their own against the new Orks and Marines etc.? Also how do they play as an army? i.e. do you tend to just charge them up the middle like a fotslogging Ork Waagh? Or are they nowadays needing the owner to be more careful to use them effectively?

I'll be looking at old armylists and threads posted on this site, but meanwhile, any answers to the above are more than welcome!

Cheers,
MIKEtheMERCILESS

My current 1750 Nidzilla list:

Hive Tyrant (2x T-L Devourer, Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Enhanced Senses, Flesh Hooks) 129
Hive Tyrant (2x T-L Devourer, Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Enhanced Senses, Flesh Hooks) 129
Carnifex (3x T-L Devourer, Enhanced Senses) 113
Carnifex (3x T-L Devourer, Enhanced Senses) 113
Carnifex (3x T-L Devourer, Enhanced Senses) 113
6x Genestealers (Scything Talons, Extended Carapace, Flesh Hooks) 150
6x Genestealers (Scything Talons, Extended Carapace, Flesh Hooks) 150
14x Termagaunts (Fleshborer, Without Number) 126
14x Termagaunts (Fleshborer, Without Number) 126
12x Termagaunts (Fleshborer, Without Number) 108
Carnifex (Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses) 148
Carnifex (Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses) 148
3x Zoanthrope (Warp Blast, Synapse Creature) 195

As you can see, it's not hard to get a lot of big bugs into 1750 and still field a fair number of smaller guys. I've got 40 Gaunts and 12 Genestealers. The list could easily have 80 Gaunts if you wanted it to.

As far as competitiveness goes, I think you can probably be "competitive" without going Nidzilla, but I do think that Nidzilla is by far the strongest build that Tyranids can field.

Think about what a Dakkafex can do. 8 BS3 shots, reroll misses, S6, reroll wounds. It's just a lot of shooting, and it's a very, very tough model, for only 113 points.

Look at the Tyrant as well. 12 BS4 shots, reroll misses, S5, reroll wounds. Again, a huge volume of shots and wounds, and just as hard to kill as a Carnifex.

The Gunfexes are also great models, with 2x S10 shots, and a big blast template. They're hell on Orks and the like, and still strong against everything else.

The simple fact is that the best models in the Tyranid list are the Dakkafexes, the cheapo Gunfex, and a Dakkatyrant, especially in 5th where volumes of wounds are better than a few high AP wounds.

yes the mixed armies are much better now and since 5th i haven't seen that many nidzilla armies. Also you could shove em up the middle but i tend to be a bit more elegant than that (even with my orks) get a broodlord with extended carapace, toxin sacs, and either acid maw or feeder tendrils do the same with a genestealer body guard but also give them a pair of scything talons, infiltrate this and watch the guardsmen flee in terror

MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: I assume they can hold their own against the new Orks and Marines etc.?

No. They can't stand up to either.

Orks are better in close combat than even dedicated Hormagaunts for half the points.

Marines get armor saves that Tyranids cannot overcome with anything other than monstrous creatures or relying on lucky Rending rolls.

NidZilla doesn't work against Orks because you can't make enough saves to survive.

I play 1500 pts so for me nidzilla is a bit more restricted troops wise. I like to field 5 MCs at most. This leaves me room for 30 WoN gaunt and 8 stealers. I normally kit out my tyrant for a flying cc role, and have a kitted out cc fex for the scare factor. Having this cc section puts fear into any army, sice if they arent dealt with not much except a ctan can deal with it all. Force your opponent to shoot at the incoming threats leaving you 2 or 3 turns to get get into postion whilst simultaneously shooting the bejessuz out of him (I love that all tyranid weaponry is assault).

@Mattlov - barbed stranglers work wonders against orks
and against marines...TL devourers also ruin their day.

In phyrix's list I see 48 shots that re-roll to hit and wound...are you saying marines won't fail a save? Against his list the only thing he should have real trouble with is a tank heavy army...

Like luke said, you really really need to deal w/ those multile high T wound MC, and with 2-3+ saves and 5-6++ (warpfield?) it can actually be quite hard. You mop up the troops (the gaunts come back!) and you have death in your ranks. Death which will win combat as youve got little to wound that kinda death. Okay, youve cause 2 wounds w/ that fist.. Its caused 5 ^.^

@Mattlov: Um, a dedicated hormagaunt squad @ 14 ppm has a possible charge range of 24, min of 19. Leaping (so every 1 of that Horde will get attacks) ws 5, I5 and str 4. A vanillia ork boy squad, yes, costs less than half. A sqaud with a couple of upgrades must be costing up to about 8ppm? And will still get ripped apart by those guys. They rip marines apart. Granted the marines get saves but when your looking at 3 attacks per model, 12 of em, 36 attacks on a 10man tac squad, your easily gonna loose 5 marines. @ i5, which means the marines are v.unlikely to deal 5 wounds back & will have to check. Add in that LD affecting scream. . .

But those troops - win.

Against Orks my Hormagaunts rarely even make it to CC. They get gunned down by 30 boyz firing 2 shots each from their shootas. I have Carnifexes regularly gunned down by mobs of normal boyz, because you simply can't make that many saves reliably.

I won't even start on Mega-Armor Nobz. Terminators with more attacks for fewer points! All with power weapons! And 2 wounds!

How many hormies do you use in a brood? Large numbers are the way to go. And never let them out of cover until the turn they charge (preferably keep a brood of gaunts in front).

Statistically 30 ork boyz shouldnt kill that many hormies. out of 60 shots, 20 hit. Roughly 14 wound, then you have cover saves...so on average you should lose 7 before engaging them (accompanied with a round of shooting from the the termagants in front of them).

Anyway, back on to the OP, yes its possible to build balanced forces that are capable of dealing with orks and SMs. But remember that a well built Nidzilla list is a pwerbuild and has a lot of advantages against most opponents.

If this isnt happening for you then just make sure there are plenty of other threats on the board that require more urgent attention than your beefed up hormagaunts.

The tyrant guards are invaluable nowdays, othervise you risk your hive tyrants blasted to bits in #1.

Nids were my first army and I still love them. I always liked having a tyranid warrior heavy list... I think mass warriors are effective against anything really.

You can take 9 warriors with just a bs upgrade and 2 devourers (to make them twin lnked) for only 234 points... That is 36 twin linked, re-roll mised wound shots for pretty cheap when you think about the volume of fire and number of wounds/models. I include a barbed strangler/lashwhip model to make the squad up to 239 points.

375 points for 9 leaping warriors with 6 that have rending/scything and 3 with lashwhips/scything and all the combat upgrades.

See, a warrior is just as good as any other model in the game (if not far better) at cc and when upgraded only dedicated cc units can compare and when you get lashwhips (which are cumulative according to faq) that just skews combat in favor of the nids.

Imagine against an avatar you have a full brood of warriors doing their thing and the avatar with just one attack =).


Anyway, I think a warrior heavy army is increadibly good looking, fun to play and very effective!

No. They can't stand up to either.

I'd have to disagree. Nidzilla is still one of the top lists in the game. Orks are very strong Codex. They have more than one way to build a killer list. Against Horde Orks, Nidzilla is actually very strong. The Strangler templates are very tough, and the big volumes of fire Nidzilla generate are great against the poor saves of Orks.

Against Marines, depends on the list. Against the Sternguard in Pods list, I think Nidzilla would be in pretty poor shape. There are a lot of Marine builds, though, and the great majority will not be able to deal well with Nidzilla.

Against Orks my Hormagaunts rarely even make it to CC.

This might be a hint as to why you don't think Nids are able to stand up to Orks. Hormagaunts are a terrible unit. There's just no reason at all to take them. Point for point, cheap Gaunts are more effective in CC. Even a basic 16 point Genestealer is greatly superior to any Gaunt you can build.

Against his list the only thing he should have real trouble with is a tank heavy army...

Actually, more of a Skimmer Tank army. Stuff like Falcons and Hammerheads are a big problem, because they're too fast, and have good defenses.

Don't forget, this list has 3 models with an S10AP1 shot, and 2 models with 2 S10 shots per turn. It also has 7 MCs, any one of which will eat a tank if it can assault it.

The other big issue is Possessed Chaos vehicles. Since the Venom Cannons are mostly there to stun tanks, and maybe get lucky, being able to ignore stuns and shakes is a problem for Nids.

How do you guys deal with the fact that Venom Cannons only glance? It means that venom cannons can't kill vehicles and so your only real chance is close combat. Just curious since it's why I haven't brought a single venom cannon in 5th edition.

Aside from the Zoanthropes (which are short ranged & can frazzle themselves. Still win) what has 2 str 10 hits? Ahh venom cannon.

WTB:Rending, anti-tank or/and intsa death weapons..

That list makes me sad. Simply look at the numbers... its all very well spread out.

Edit: Theres enough fire to keep enough vehicles stunned/shaken to allow for firstly the massed str6 fire & deadly zoanthropes to open up and then CC specialists to open up things.

Or do like the necrons do and strip off the weapons and move on.

How do you guys deal with the fact that Venom Cannons only glance? It means that venom cannons can't kill vehicles and so your only real chance is close combat.

As has generally been said already, you deal with the fact that Venom Cannons only glance by shrugging, and being glad you get 2 S10 shots. Keeping enemy tanks stunned or shaken is generally enough.

You'll get more tank kills with the Strangler, but the Venom Cannon will get a ton more effects.

From there, you have Zoanthropes, who are pretty poor shots (having to test Ld and also hit at BS3), but an S10AP1 shot is no joke, and if you get a hit, you've got a very good chance to kill.

Also, if you can stun tanks, then jump them the next turn (which is generally how it's going to go), a Tyrant or Carnifex will kill most anything most of the time.

I think my list is pretty typical Nidzilla, and the thing with those sorts of lists, is that they aren't amazing at shooting down any one thing, but the nature of their firepower is such that they're still very good at shooting everything. Their range is on the edge of too short (most is only 18"), but they absorb wounds without losing shooting.

It's a very, very strong list, IMO. Not as straightforward as it might seem, though, so some practice is needed. The Gaunts are tricky to understand, and CC is a surprisingly bad place for all the big bugs to be (the Tyrants do ok, the Carnifexes should avoid CC except with vehicles, and units unprotected with a Power Fist).

for AT, Venom cannon is simply to keep a tank from shooting until you get to it, that is all I ever really used them for and if I ever killed a tank with them all the better (imobolized is even better!).

Warp blast is what I've always seen used to better effect for anti tank and at the very least, just getting into combat now is pretty much a guaranteed kill unless it is a Land Raider.

I've been playing a little more balanced force at 1k pts, and have done just fine. From my experience with a balanced force and the new 5th edition rules you need to use the advantages you can get to keep your units alive as much as possible as they cross the field. Whether thats using other units for cover saves, or being able to use terrain to block fire lanes and LOS on your units.

I've actually posted a thread about my new variation for 2k points for tyranids, I'll post the build with the changes that were given to me along with the forum url so you can read the advice I was given.

It's more swarm, since numbers for me have always proven more useful, if I give my enemy more targets to shoot at then he can manage, I've won because yeah he might take out 1 or maybe even 2 squads, but I'll over take the rest of him with MC's and vast number of attacks. I don't usually fine my battles at maximum range of the biggest guns and IG Lascannon Squads are the only real thing I have problems with when I don't get cover big enough to shield my MC's for the first turn. Luckily thought they can't really take much in the form of damage so taking them out first is good if I want MC's the rest of the match.

Here's the build:

HQ
Hive Tyrant
*w/ Bio-Plasma
w/ Toxin Sacs
w/ Ext. Carapace
w/ Scything Talons
w/ TL Deathspitters
w/ Warp Blast

168 pts

ELITES
3 Warrior Squad
4 Warrior Squad
Equipped w/ the following:
Ext. Carapace
2x Scything Talons

175 pts

TROOPS
32 Gaunts
32 Gaunts
*w/ Fleshborers

32 Gaunts
32 Gaunts
*w/ Spinefists

32 Gaunts
32 Gaunts
*w/ Devourers

1152 pts

HEAVY SUPPORT
Carnifex
w/ Enh. Senses
w/ Ext. Carapace
w/ Barbed Strangler
w/ Scything Talons

Carnifex
w/ Enh. Senses
w/ Ext. Carapace
w/ Venom Cannon
w/ Scything Talons

3x Zoanthropes
w/ Synapse
w/ Warp Blast

502 pts

Total pts 1997
205 model count
*Denotes an Edit.

Reconstructed Tyranids List for 2k pts

I think it's worth mentioning that No Retreat kicks the snot out of Gaunts in HtH. Funny enough (as mentioned before), HtH is a bad place for most Tyranids to be.

In 4th, Nidzilla was great. In 5th, they have to deal with No Retreat, tougher vehicles (coupled with an existing lack of anti-tank) and melta spam.

Actually Nidzilla still does pretty well against vehicles even in 5th ed. The only real vehicle that gives Nidzilla an issue is those darn Necron Monoliths. Its the only thing that presents a pain since we only get 1D6 when working armor pen. However, everything else is now scored against the back armor in HtH with the tank and we get 2D6 added. Makes easy work of vehicles that aren't super heavy with Mass points. But then again those are only from FW and must be approved by the opposing player.

However, you are right about the mass amount of melta and metla equivlant weapons showing up in army lists these days. It makes even my few MC's take a second glance before charging into devour the poor little suckers.

Uh, I'm looking at the codex, I'm not seeing the AP1 shots that some people are listing. WarpBlast is ap2, venom cannons are ap4 - glancing only. Where are you finding what makes them AP1?

Every *other* list is loading up on Ap1.

What drastically changes the metagame for Nids in 5th ed is the new Line of Sight rules allowing the big guns to give them a knock from the get go while simultaneously denying them cover in all but the most defensive setups.

Nidz are still alright, but they don't insta-murder everything but Eldar and Sisters like they did in 4th.