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In the next couple of weeks, I'm playing in a 1500-point tourney (I already have my list up), and my friend made the mistake of telling me what he's going to take. He's loading up on Pariahs and taking a C'tan (Deceiver is more likely than Nightbringer). This might be because he fears Ghazghkull and wants to kill him (I'm fielding Ghaz). Now how would I go about taking on those units? My other friend who's better than me at 40k (and always will be) already assured me that Ghaz could whip the Nightbringer, and if he can whip the Nightbringer, he can whip the Deceiver. He also said that Warscythes are cute and to not worry about them. Are any other tricks that either of those guys can pull that I should worry about?

Just get stuck in right away and you should win easily. Pariahs are pure weaksauce and waaaay overpriced. Powerklaw the Nightbringer to death or use a load of lootas on him.

Do you think this "mistake" was not a tactic to throw you off?

Ghaz + Nobz will kick da livin metal out of any C´tan.
Pariahs, well, I dont know but goin HtH with Orkies isnt the best idea more often than not. Doing that with Necrons/Pariahs is just well, not that smart.
As Lemartes said already, Pariahs are way too pricey and wont cut it vs HtH Lists or any other list for that matter. At least that´s how I see it. But hey, maybe your friend is a real smartass and explored a way to use Pariahs

Pariahs have one attack in cc each. They also do not have WBB. The only threat they'll pose to you is with their gauss blasters. Warscythes(which they use) ignore normal and invulnerable saves, so just watch them around your characters. Really, you should be able to beat a necron player into the dirt with numbers. I don't know about the C'tan, haven't played against one in years.

Edit: Phantom of the Double Post strikes again.

Oh he explored them all right, wait for Ghaz to WAAAGH! so he can counter Ghaz's new 2+ Inv save. I will counter his counter with making someone else charge them.

My friend who's better than me at 40k also said that, that the 'mistake' was a tactic to throw me off. Problem with that is, Necron guy went so in-depth and was so sure with his idea that I don't think he was lying, he only lies during games, even then he isn't too good at it. And I've seen his Pariahs, he just needs a few more for a full squad.

lootas, lots of em...with a ctan and pariahs he cant have a lot of WBB boys on the table. Take 45 lootaz and watch him phase out on turn 1...lol

Well, for pariahs, same way you kill marines. They have a slightly higher toughness, but I3, and still a 3+ armor. And they aren't necrons, so if they fall down, they stay down. Just be warned, the pariahs do have some nasty shooting, and their CC attacks allow no saves.

For the C'tan. Shoot him with S5+, lots. Only has a 50% chance to pass a save.

The most important thing though, is ignore them both. Completely. If he brings the max of 10 Pariahs, and Deceiver, that's 44% of his points. If he brings nothing else but warriors, that's at most 46 warriors, of which you need to kill 34 (and if you get the warriors into CC, and get a sweeping advance, you win, and the warriors don't get back up.) Kill that many warriors, and they phase out, and the pariahs and c'tan go away. More expensive models means less of them you have to kill.

There is a chance your buddy was playing with you though. With 44-48 % of the army taken up by two units, 11 models, which don't count toward phase out, he's taking a big risk. So don't be suprised if he has something else when you show up.

Lukus83 wrote:lootas, lots of em...with a ctan and pariahs he cant have a lot of WBB boys on the table. Take 45 lootaz and watch him phase out on turn 1...lol

Rofl that'd be disgusting.

'Look at those Pariahs! Oh, and I see you've got yourself a Deceiver too! I know the best way to counter both!'
'And what's that?'
'To not shoot them at all with my 45 Lootas lololololololol!!!'

Why ignore Pariahs? Lock them down in HtH with 30Sluggaz and call it a win.
Pariahs are only nasty vs ICs yeh, but sinking so many pts just to kill an IC?
Necron without Mono/-s are easy win imo.

Orks have the least problems with Ctan and pariahs.

So he taking away your 6+ save with his warscythe? Darn!

dancingcricket has it right. Ignore the C'tan and Pariahs if possible and mow down his warriors. I'm not saying to avoid them at all costs, that wouldn't be Orky. Just try to kill 75% of his necrons. If he is talking C'tan and Pariah heavy you can bet he's going to sink points in other crud too, so that's even less warriors you have to kill. It's hard NOT to win against necrons with Orks as long as you go speed hoardy.

The only thing I'd worry about would be the possibility of instead of massively gimping himself against arguably the most vicious army out there, he takes 3 monoliths.

If the guy's halfway competent, that's exactly what he'll do.

So here's the question, how do Orks challenge 3 monos and full on Necro shooting Immortal spam? Orks, even with PK nobs, do not have an easy time against Immortals.

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:In the next couple of weeks, I'm playing in a 1500-point tourney (I already have my list up), and my friend made the mistake of telling me what he's going to take. He's loading up on Pariahs and taking a C'tan (Deceiver is more likely than Nightbringer). This might be because he fears Ghazghkull and wants to kill him (I'm fielding Ghaz). Now how would I go about taking on those units? My other friend who's better than me at 40k (and always will be) already assured me that Ghaz could whip the Nightbringer, and if he can whip the Nightbringer, he can whip the Deceiver.

Uh, I'm not so sure about your friend's tactical knowledge if he makes a statement like that; one-on-one, the Deceiver kills Ghaz in 2 turns*. Critical to this is knowing that if you charge the Deceiver he can simply opt to leave combat, and he can do the same if he is engaged in your turn (i.e., he charges you, fails to kill you in one turn, at the start of your assault phase he leaves combat, having avoided any ranged attacks in your shooting phase).

That said, if you're seriously facing loads of Pariahs, just shoot/melee his warriors to death and watch them fade away. Although there are some fun little bits to watch out for: specifically, my understanding is that the moral lowering effect of Pariahs overrides Orks' Mob Rule special rule, so you're going to have a lot of leadership 7 units, and since the Deceiver can force a pinning/moral test on anyone (even fearless, yadda yadda), you may just have your uber-unit of doom pinned to the ground.

*Remember that the Deceiver will always be able to fight with 5 attacks, and can always deny you the charge: The Deceiver charges and makes his attacks first, puts 2 wounds on Ghaz and takes 1.4 in return. Next Ork turn he leaves combat, then charges again. 2 more wounds on Ghaz and down he goes.

If your opponent uses the nightbringer, then this can be bad for orks, since he can cancel out a charge of boyz into his lines with the etheric winds special rule. As others have said, ignore the ctan and pariahs and just destroy his phase out units.

Well, we tested Ghaz on the Nightbringer since the Nightbringer is the CC monster of either C'tan. The Nightbringer has to score at least 4 hits out of 5 attacks (we're assuming Ghaz got the charge), each attack having a 50% chance to hit. We estimated that about 3 will hit. Now he has to wound Ghaz, which will happen about 80% of the time. Say they both wound, Ghaz is at 2 now since he gets no saves. Now Ghaz attacks, he's got 7 attacks and needs to hit with 5, each attack hitting 50% of the time. At least 4 will hit. Ghaz will wound 80% of the time, so say 3 wound the Nightbringer. The Nightbringer will make his save 50%, so he'll likely make 1. 2 wounds on the Nightbringer. So combat was a draw, but if Ghaz had some Nobs with him, assuming he has 5, with 3 Power Klaws and 2 Big Choppas, the Nightbringer would likely be dead by the time Ghaz attacks.

Now the Deceiver. So let's assume the Deceiver charged. He's got 5 attacks at WS 5, so he'd be hitting 50% of the time. This time, 3 hit. Again, 80% wounding, so let's say 2 wound. Now Ghaz goes, 5 attacks hitting a good 70% of the time, so 3 hit. 80% wounding again, so 3 wound. Deceiver gets his saves and saves 1, so he takes 2 wounds. With the aforementioned Nob squad, likelihood says down goes the Deceiver. Necron guy would have to charge his Deceiver for that to happen, and if he knows better, he'll go after my Big Mek or Kanz for example.

I've got a unit of 15 Lootas and a squadron of KMB Kanz too, so chances are the C'tan will be wounded before the above combats. Who knows, it might even be dead.

My bad, double post.

K. If he's taking 3 monoliths and a C'tan. Or even if he's not taking a c'tan, your first priority is the same as if he was taking 10 pariahs and a C'tan. Kill everything else. 3 Monoliths is just over 700 pts. Add the cheapest C'tan, and thats over 2/3 of his points. So, basically, all of your points to kill 1/3 to 1/2 of his points. Yeah, they take a bunch of killing, but it can be done.

Immortals - Full unit costs a little bit under 300. And cost about $10 a model when last I was buying them, probably higher now. With 3 monoliths, he'll only be able to take 10 Immortals, as that will bring him 15 points shy of 1K, and he'll need 500 for 20 warriors and a Lord with a res orb. Meaning he'll have 31 necrons, 1/4 of which is 7.75, round up to 8, subtract from 31, have 23 necrons down after WBB, and the monoliths and everything else goes away. And don't forget the other little bit about WBB, there needs to be something standing nearby, of the same type (except for Lords), in order to even qualify for a WBB. So if you drop all 10 immortals from shooting, then they don't get to WBB either. Same for the warriors, if you lay all the warriors down, with no warrior staning within 6", they don't get back up. With your shooting, can you drop 20 SM's in one round?

INDEPTH : With the monoliths, if he has an orb particularly, but even if he doesn't, go for sweeping advance, as he can't WBB from it. There are three things you will have to worry about from the monoliths, getting around it, the Gauss Flux Arc, and the portal. Getting around it just because it's big, and it does block LOS, and takes a while to go all the way around. Three of them next to each other is just a moving wall of annoyance and can seriously delay you from getting into CC. The gauss flux arc is the best weapon he has against a horde, providing his rolls are good, has a decent S and AP, and a d6 shots at every unit with a model withing 12" of any of it's guns. Considering the model itself is about 6" across, you're looking at about a 30" radius that is under monolith threat, per 'lith. With multiple mounts all firing simultaneously, as one weapon, it's hard to not get LOS from one of the mounts. The portal is a problem because he can pull necron units out of combat (you don't get to consolidate when he does this), gets a second WBB roll on downed models when he does this, and can still fire the gauss arc, then rapid fire the warriors he just pulled through. Monoliths in 5th are becoming super-critical to Necron survival, at least until the codex, as it gives surviving units a chance go get their strength back, get out of CC where they don't do well and bring their firepower to bear, and delay ever so slightly, the CC units getting to them. The shooting is a nice bonus, but is just an add on to what the Monolith truly provides, survivability.

Just occurred to me, something to watch out for. Pariahs lowering your leadership to 7 doesn't cancel out fearless from mob rule. You're fearless, just LD7 and fearless. However, in order to assault a C'tan you need to make a LEADERSHIP test. I specify that, because it's not a morale test. Morale tests are leadership tests, but leadership tests are not morale tests. So fearless will not let you automatically pass it. So, he can park his c'tan one inch from you, and there's a good chance you wouldn't be able to assault.

But that's ok. You don't want to be tied up with the c'tan anyhow. Get to the warriors.

I shouldn't have to worry about 3 of those groovy floating houses in unison, since my friend has 1.

If you're fielding 15 lootas, the thing to do is AVOID THE C'TAN.

Shoot your Lootas at necrons and shoot/assault the Pariah's.

As has been stressed to you already... beat him with the phase out. Kill off his Necrons & he CAN'T win.


Eric

Understood, ignore all three previously mentioned units (Pariahs, C'tan, Monoliths) and aim for his Necron units since he won't have too many after he takes those three.

Thanks a lot guys.

Bah, killing Warriors instead of the C´tan is a shame for any green Orky

Mind you, get Ghazghkuls WAAAGH! for your assault. He get´s a pretty damn nice 2+ save from it so I wouldnt care so much about the C´tans attacks.
Next thing to think about: Every not fleeing unit is fearless during Ghaz´s Waaagh! So I wouldnt care about pinning stuff and such. That should give you enough punch to kick anything there´ll is.
If really plays the bugger out game with his pesky deciver phase him out, who cares anymore if he´s a wimp?

DaDok wrote:Mind you, get Ghazghkuls WAAAGH! for your assault. He get´s a pretty damn nice 2+ save from it so I wouldnt care so much about the C´tans attacks.

Problem with that is, C'tan ignore ALL saves, as do Warscythes. Even if Ghaz calls his WAAAGH!, his new Invulnerable save will mean nothing against a C'tan.

hehe happens eh

Should reread that boring metal dex again.

As my other friend who plays Tyranids would say:

Tyranid guy: Don't worry about it, God doesn't love everyone.

Then you could respond with a:

You: Yeah, just look at what he did to you. (Since he's really....large)

Tyranid guy:

Looks like the real question has been covered: ignore everything that isn't a necron and pound him till phase out. But the following is a bit wonky...

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:Well, we tested Ghaz on the Nightbringer since the Nightbringer is the CC monster of either C'tan. The Nightbringer has to score at least 4 hits out of 5 attacks (we're assuming Ghaz got the charge), each attack having a 50% chance to hit. We estimated that about 3 will hit. Now he has to wound Ghaz, which will happen about 80% of the time. Say they both wound, Ghaz is at 2 now since he gets no saves. Now Ghaz attacks, he's got 7 attacks and needs to hit with 5, each attack hitting 50% of the time. At least 4 will hit. Ghaz will wound 80% of the time, so say 3 wound the Nightbringer. The Nightbringer will make his save 50%, so he'll likely make 1. 2 wounds on the Nightbringer. So combat was a draw, but if Ghaz had some Nobs with him, assuming he has 5, with 3 Power Klaws and 2 Big Choppas, the Nightbringer would likely be dead by the time Ghaz attacks.

Now the Deceiver. So let's assume the Deceiver charged. He's got 5 attacks at WS 5, so he'd be hitting 50% of the time. This time, 3 hit. Again, 80% wounding, so let's say 2 wound. Now Ghaz goes, 5 attacks hitting a good 70% of the time, so 3 hit. 80% wounding again, so 3 wound. Deceiver gets his saves and saves 1, so he takes 2 wounds. With the aforementioned Nob squad, likelihood says down goes the Deceiver. Necron guy would have to charge his Deceiver for that to happen, and if he knows better, he'll go after my Big Mek or Kanz for example.

I've got a unit of 15 Lootas and a squadron of KMB Kanz too, so chances are the C'tan will be wounded before the above combats. Who knows, it might even be dead.

Wow, that's an odd way of doing statistics, is this the new math I hear so much about? Let's use some actual numbers, eh (and mind you, I was comparing the Deceiver against Ghaz alone, but the addition of 5 nobs is not as good a move as you would think)?

Ghaz + 5 nobs (3klaw, 2 big choppa) vs. The Nightbringer (since Orks can be fleet, let's assume they get off the charge)

Nightbringer goes at the same time as the BC nobs, for max combat res the NB attacks the nobs;
5 attacks, hitting on 3s, killing on 2s = 5(2/3)(5/6) = 2.78 wounds. Since he's S10 and Nobs aren't immune to instant death, that's 2-3 dead nobs, let's round and say 3 (killing a klaw nob), combat res of 6.
BC Nobs, 8 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 5s, 4+ save = 8(1/2)(1/3)(1/2) = 0.67 wounds.
Then PK nobs and Ghaz,
PK Nobs, 8 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 3s, 4+ save = 8(1/2)(2/3)(1/2) = 1.33 wound
Ghaz, 7 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 2s, 4+ save = 7(1/2)(5/6)(1/2) = 1.46 wounds. Orks inflict 3.46 total wounds (round to 3)
Nightbringer wins combat (2 wounds remaining), 6 wounds to 3, Ghaz is making a leadership 6 check to stay. Let's be generous and say he makes it ('course, on average he runs and is caught...)
Nightbringer goes first, allocates 3 attacks to the nobs, 2 to Ghaz,
3(2/3)(5/6) = 1.67 wounds, round to 2, 2 dead nobs, combat res of 4.
2(1/2)(5/6) = .83 wounds, round to 1, combat res of 5 now.
Ghaz makes 5 attacks, 5(1/2)(5/6)(1/2) = 1.04 wounds, round to 1.
Nightbringer wins combat (1 wound remaining), 5 to 1, Ghaz (3 wounds remaining) must now make a leadership 5 test to stay.
Next round Nightbringer puts 5 attacks on Ghaz, 5(1/2)(5/6) = 2.08 wounds,
Ghaz makes 5 attacks, 5(1/2)(5/6)(1/2) = 1.04 wounds, round to 1.
Ghaz wins! (Well, he does if Ghaz manages 2 unlikely leadership tests, and assuming the necron player keeps his pariahs and so on back... a pariah within 12", after all, makes those moral checks even harsher).

Ghaz + 5 nobs (3klaw, 2 big choppa) vs. Deceiver (as pointed out, the Deceiver cannot be charged, so he gets the charge off)
Deceiver goes first, 5 attacks against the nobs, 5(2/3)(5/6) = 2.78 wounds, round to 3, 3 dead nobs so CR of 6.
Ghaz and 2 PK nobs;
PK Nobs 6 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s, 4+ save = 6(1/2)(1/2)(1/2) = 0.75 wounds, round to 1.
Ghaz 5 attacks, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s, 4+ save = 5(2/3)(5/6)(1/2) = 1.39 wounds, round to 1
The Deceiver (3 wounds remaining) wins combat 6 to 2, Ghaz must make a leadership 5 test to stay (Again, on average he dies, but let's be sporting).
Next turn the Deceiver leaves combat during the Ork assault phase, no attacks made. Let's be sporting and assume none of the Necron army decides to take a potshot at ol' G-man while he stands there sucking his green thumb.
Deceiver charges, goes first;
3 attacks on the Nobs 3(2/3)(5/6) = 1.67 wounds, 2 dead nobs.
2 on Ghaz, 2(1/2)(5/6) = 0.83 wounds, round to 1. Deceiver has a CR of 5.
Ghaz 5 attacks, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s, 4+ save = 5(2/3)(5/6)(1/2) = 1.39 wounds, round to 1, CR of 1.
Deceiver (2 wounds) wins combat against Ghaz (3 wounds) 5 to 1, yadda yadda. Deceiver scrams during Ork turn, charges in Necron turn.
Deceiver 5(1/2)(5/6) = 2.08 wounds, round to 2.
Ghaz 5(2/3)(5/6)(1/2) = 1.39 wounds, round to 1.
Deceiver (1 wound) wins combat against Ghaz (1 wound) 2 to 1, yadda yadda. Deceiver scrams during Ork turn, charges in Necron turn.
Deceiver 5(1/2)(5/6) = 2.08 wounds, Ghaz is dead.
The Deceiver wins in 3 turns*!


*Remember, in my original statement of 2 turns, it was Deceiver against Ghaz alone.