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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/18 03:23:44
Subject: Solving Mech/Horde
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Been Around the Block
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The way the current game is structured, pure mech and pure horde are extremely strong list. The game goes absolutely crazy when something like Armoured Company is involved, and using transports to spam tanks is still pretty powerful.
The problem is that any given list is 1/2 anti-infantry, 1/2 anti-tank (approx.) This means, against an all-inf or all-tank force, 1/2 your army is wasted. A mixed force with not enough tanks will be destroyed rapidly (like 1-tank IG, for example).
What about this as a solution (that totally screws up the game in 5 million other ways, I know):
Write list except weapons
See opponent's list
Buy weapons
What would this do? What would become too strong? What would become too weak?
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tvtropes wrote:Yes, that's right, Games Workshop has managed to take a race of omnicidal zombie robots and make it more GRIMDARK. This troper's impressed.
Comissar Ciaphas Cain, "Hero" of the "Imperium" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/19 20:15:15
Subject: Solving Mech/Horde
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Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential
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youd kind of have to anticipate what you might need & leave points space for it.
& also, even though you can write a basic list in this way, youd have to pick your actual units before seeing the opponent's list, so it would be hard to create a balanced force which could be tailored to fight a given list, due solely to weapons choice.
I think itd be quite a hit & miss way to do it. Would a better solution to come up with three lists that were comparable, points wise & then decide which one to field based on seeing the opponent's list.
atrociously phrased, but do you see where Im coming from?
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=====Begin Dakka Geek Code=====
DQ:80-S---G+MB-I+PW40K00#-D++A+/fWD-R++T(M)DM+
======End Dakka Geek Code======
"I just scoop up the whole unit in my hands and dump them in a pile roughly 6" forward. I don't even care."
- Lord_Blackfang on moving large units
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/21 14:10:07
Subject: Solving Mech/Horde
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Morphing Obliterator
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somecallmeJack wrote:
I think itd be quite a hit & miss way to do it. Would a better solution to come up with three lists that were comparable, points wise & then decide which one to field based on seeing the opponent's list.
but then surely your opponent would also have a choice of 3 lists. in which case you would have to look at each of your opponents lists before deciding which list to use. canny players would make one heavy infanty, one heavy tank and one balanced, in which case all you can do is hope to chose the right list to counter your opponents...which is the same situation we have at the moment.
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taking up the mission
Polonius wrote:Well, seeing as I literally will die if I ever lose a game of 40k, I find your approach almost heretical. If we were to play each other in a tournament, not only would I table you, I would murder you, your family, every woman you ever loved and burn down your house. I mean, what's the point in winning if you allow people that don't take the game seriously to live? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/22 06:05:18
Subject: Solving Mech/Horde
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Da Head Honcho Boss Grot
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The problem I see is that a lot of the time you can't make the unit good against tanks/infantry with a simple weapon swap.
For example, Fire Dragons or Tankbustas. They're anti-tank no matter what you do.
Same thing with Shoota Boys and Fire Warriors against infantry.
It inadvertently favors Space Marines, Imperial Guard, and other armies that alter their list through weapons more than armies like Orks and Eldar that alter their army through unit choices.
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Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/30 04:49:04
Subject: Solving Mech/Horde
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Bloodthirsty Bloodletter
Anchorage
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How about choosing 2/3 of your list as always the same (3/4, some ratio but definitely more than half), then 2 different auxiliaries too choose from. That way you still have your list ready from the get go, each player gets to see the majority of the opponents list before choosing his auxiliary. Put in the caveat that you don't have to use this method incase someone wants to build a single list and the auxiliary method doesn't work out well points wise (ie. has a list that comes out exactly at 1800, but no workable combination that comes out to 1200), with the disad that they wouldn't be able to change out for a different auxiliary. Allows you to tailor somewhat for horde or armor, keeps a bit of suprise as you don't know which of the auxiliaries your going to face until after both of you select.
Played a local tourney using that setup, 1000 base, 2 500 sidebars. It was actually quite fun.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/30 11:57:14
Subject: Solving Mech/Horde
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
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I think the main problem stems from the previous obsession within the player base of armour punching weapons like Plasma Guns.
Now Hordes are a force to be reckoned with, the effect is multiplied as people are still utterly paranoid about Power Armour.
Give it time and things will change!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/30 22:28:24
Subject: Solving Mech/Horde
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Veteran Inquisitor with Xenos Alliances
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40k is a game of extremes, where units of an extreme niche out perform others of varying abilities. This is no difference, I question why either case needs fixing. There are two approaches you can take with looking at mech and horde armies: that they are intrinsically fair or unfair. If they are intrinsically unfair they shouldn't be allowed on the field in any sort of untethered capacity; if they are however fair than there isn't a problem.
How is the disadvantage of a mech list against a non-mech list any different than a close combat emphasizing list versus an army who has little or no close combat ability?
Also aren't there built in disadvantages to mech and horde lists, are further fixing needed, or shouldn't really be a matter of better balancing the point values in specific codices?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 03:47:25
Subject: Re:Solving Mech/Horde
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Wicked Warp Spider
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Imo i believe that the balance issue really boils down to the fact that different dex's are released at different times - which depending on you army and the ruleset either greatly strenghtens or weakens an army. The game will never be ballanced (imo). Once all the armies get their 5th ed. dex's we should see more balance.
Until then you just kind of have to figure out what your list does best and stick to it. Also if your play friendlies and you know what your opponent typically brings to the party you can try to build around his list.
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"I suppose if we couldn't laugh at things that don't make sence, we couldn't react to a lot of life." - Calvin and Hobbes
DukeRustfield - There's nothing wrong with beer and pretzels. I'm pretty sure they are the most important members of the food group. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/18 11:49:12
Subject: Solving Mech/Horde
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Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk
Olympia, Waaaghshinton
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BillTheManiac wrote:The way the current game is structured, pure mech and pure horde are extremely strong list. The game goes absolutely crazy when something like Armoured Company is involved, and using transports to spam tanks is still pretty powerful.
The problem is that any given list is 1/2 anti-infantry, 1/2 anti-tank (approx.) This means, against an all-inf or all-tank force, 1/2 your army is wasted. A mixed force with not enough tanks will be destroyed rapidly (like 1-tank IG, for example).
What about this as a solution (that totally screws up the game in 5 million other ways, I know):
Write list except weapons
See opponent's list
Buy weapons
What would this do? What would become too strong? What would become too weak?
This would be fun! When I play a battlewagon list in a tournament, always facing 20+ meltas would be awesome! And if I decide to go horde? I'm going to enjoy all those flamers!
The best thing to do is to simply have contingencies for extreme lists, and to develop strategies for your games. Or, in some instances, simply make a better list; 3 missile launchers in 1,500pts isn't effective anti-tank.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/18 11:50:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/18 12:02:03
Subject: Solving Mech/Horde
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Regular Dakkanaut
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You know, I have often thought a similar option would be extremely good for balancing the game out. What I would propose is a sideboard of say, 25% of the army total that you could swap out based on who your opponent was.
Makes sense from a fluff standpoint; most armies know at least the general idea who they will fight, and can plan accordingly.
Makes sense from a game standpoint as well, as the top positions at tourneys no longer would go to the few lists that manage to be able to deal with all problems ( Nob bikers, for example = high resiliency, high damage potential, low kill points) since people could plan a sideboard to deal with Over the Top lists, without sacrificing a well-rounded list to deal with other opponents.
I think it would be a strong addition to the game, and make for much more interesting battles, where armies were less cookie-cutter.
@Mekniakal - the problem is some armies have a real difficulty dealing with extreme builds while still maintaining an effective force for take all comers play. A sideboard or adaptive game would allow BOTH players to make adjustments.
Honestly, it wouldn't break the game. I've played an awfull lot of 40k where we both know the opponent we will be facing next week, and can build our lists appropriately. Since both players know who they are fighting, they each have the opportunity to take on the other.
I think it could only help round the ame out.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/19 07:47:56
Subject: Solving Mech/Horde
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Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk
Olympia, Waaaghshinton
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nathonicus wrote:You know, I have often thought a similar option would be extremely good for balancing the game out. What I would propose is a sideboard of say, 25% of the army total that you could swap out based on who your opponent was.
Makes sense from a fluff standpoint; most armies know at least the general idea who they will fight, and can plan accordingly.
Makes sense from a game standpoint as well, as the top positions at tourneys no longer would go to the few lists that manage to be able to deal with all problems ( Nob bikers, for example = high resiliency, high damage potential, low kill points) since people could plan a sideboard to deal with Over the Top lists, without sacrificing a well-rounded list to deal with other opponents.
I think it would be a strong addition to the game, and make for much more interesting battles, where armies were less cookie-cutter.
@Mekniakal - the problem is some armies have a real difficulty dealing with extreme builds while still maintaining an effective force for take all comers play. A sideboard or adaptive game would allow BOTH players to make adjustments.
Honestly, it wouldn't break the game. I've played an awfull lot of 40k where we both know the opponent we will be facing next week, and can build our lists appropriately. Since both players know who they are fighting, they each have the opportunity to take on the other.
I think it could only help round the ame out.
I will agree that I like this type of playing for long-term campaign type games. I like the idea of making the list moldable but the 25% rule would be a bit difficult to implement; when would both sides finally stop fine tuning their armies? If you change your list to be effective against nob bikers, wouldn't it make sense for the ork player to change his list into a horde style one? Also, simply looking at your opponent's army list wouldn't work since they would swap out what they want.
One way I guess that this might work was if both players had only 75% of their list written down, and had maybe 2-3 "options" that they would be allowed to swap in. The problem with this is that it would become a very "rock, paper, scissors" type thing; if you bring all those low ap, str. 8 weapons, what if he decided to run his horde guys?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/22 04:13:37
Subject: Re:Solving Mech/Horde
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Stubborn Temple Guard
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Casper wrote: The game will never be ballanced (imo). Once all the armies get their 5th ed. dex's we should see more balance.
That should be when, about the time 7th edition is released?
I will agree with the fact that no army is really as good at everything like a Marine army. Just putting a missile launcher in your Tactical Squads give you amazing flexibility to overcome most enemies. The ability to fire either type of missile is a nice advantage.
IG just template-spam everything, and that's pretty damn annoying (and difficult) to fight, especially for a Tyranid player.
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27th Member of D.O.O.M.F.A.R.T.
Resident Battletech Guru. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/25 08:04:47
Subject: Re:Solving Mech/Horde
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Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk
Olympia, Waaaghshinton
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Mattlov wrote:Casper wrote: The game will never be ballanced (imo). Once all the armies get their 5th ed. dex's we should see more balance.
That should be when, about the time 7th edition is released?
I will agree with the fact that no army is really as good at everything like a Marine army. Just putting a missile launcher in your Tactical Squads give you amazing flexibility to overcome most enemies. The ability to fire either type of missile is a nice advantage.
IG just template-spam everything, and that's pretty damn annoying (and difficult) to fight, especially for a Tyranid player.
The thing is, marines armies pay a premium for being masters of all trades (and experts at none). If you try to make an army with balanced shooting/assault as marines, you will usually end up with an underwhelming amount of both.
Not that this is a bad thing. All armies you make should have weaknesses.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/02/02 20:26:51
Subject: Solving Mech/Horde
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Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin
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I just wanted to let you know that when I play my choas.
Here's list 1
Sorcerer with Lash
Sorcerer with Lash
10 CSM Melta, Flamer, Champ IOCG Fist/Combi-Melta
10 CSM Melta, Flamer, Champ IOCG Fist/Combi-Melta
10 CSM Melta, Flamer, Champ IOCG Fist/Combi-Melta
3 Oblits
3 Oblits
Want to guess what list 2 and 3 are?
Personally I like thinking about what I think people in my local area are bringing to the tournaments, and then building a list to beat what I think they are playing. With luck and some planning I got lucky at Kublacon last year and just barely squeaked away with best general ... using of all things.. Tau.
Multiple lists will kill that strategy. I can imagine... ooooh Orks...sweet they are hordes... I'll pull out my 3 railhead list with 2 pathfinders and kill then in droves... oh... its a truck list.... bah. ohh he brought 3 lists... now is battle wagons and I took my ion cannon list.
Yuck... leave that stuff for warmachine, its a smaller game, and won't make you carry 50lbs of models for a 1750 tournament.
I could see a tournament where you have to bring certain types of units, one list with at least 30% elite (special forces for invasion missions), or at least 30% heavy (defending your homeworld type misions), or at least 30% fast attack (hit n run style missions). And each list may not have more than 20% of any other slot other than troops.
So for that, I'm a defender (heavy list) being invaded by player 1(using special forces list) or if its a hit n run style mission, then they are using the fast attack list. The missions would be custom tailored to give specific victory conditions for each player. Probably making it so that different force org slots are scoring, or bonus points are awarded for killing certain units, especially if its done with certain units from your list.
Acutally what might be better is that whatever list you do run, say the defender list, you are allowed 4 heavy slots choices, but only 2 of anything else.
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