Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Focusing on insta kills, manueverability and meltas

Vulkan

5 x assault termies w/th
landraider

5 x assault termies w/th

10 x scouts w/sniper rifles

5 x scouts w/sniper rifles

3 x 3 x attack bikes w/multimelta

land raider redeemer

Yes, you can kill the scouts pretty easily..but they are less suscpetible to lash...and killing the scouts means you are letting the raiders and attack bikes manuever and fire.

Your thoughts? BTW, I am not a terrible fan of the redeemer but I don't hav ethe 10 points for an upgrade... though it would be great for killing PM's sitting on an objective.

ender502

how are scouts less suseptible to lash? they still get moved just as easily. they just die easier than regualr marines. easy to kill 15 T4 models with a 3+ save. if that happens then you cant win 2/3rds of your games.

I think he's referring to the fact that they're attacking from 36", and don't have to get inside 12" to rapid fire. However, they can't move and fire and they need 4+ to hit. Their ability to wound anything is dampened by the fact that they're WORSE at killing T3 than bolters. Rending/Pinning is okay, but you would really need to spam the rifles to make it effective.

Two LRs with Terminators and 9 Melta-Bikes are a step in the right direction with Vulkan, but the scouts do feel a little odd.

y not drop the other raider and put in a couple of drop-podding dreads with twin heavy flamers?

Arctik_Firangi wrote:I think he's referring to the fact that they're attacking from 36", and don't have to get inside 12" to rapid fire. However, they can't move and fire and they need 4+ to hit. Their ability to wound anything is dampened by the fact that they're WORSE at killing T3 than bolters. Rending/Pinning is okay, but you would really need to spam the rifles to make it effective.

Two LRs with Terminators and 9 Melta-Bikes are a step in the right direction with Vulkan, but the scouts do feel a little odd.

I am just looking to fill the troops slots...the scouts will give me 3 scoring units....at 220 I can't afford 3 scoring units of tacs...or I would take them. The list is all about the termies and attack bikes..everything else is secondary.

Alphus wrote:y not drop the other raider and put in a couple of drop-podding dreads with twin heavy flamers?

Flamer dreads are sweet but I don't know if it's worth the trad eoff in terms of insta kills. If this is going to be a viable and cometitiv elist I nee dto be able to deal with LASH and nob bikes. Multiple insta kill weapons does that faily well when they are on manueverable platforms.

If I had a few extra points I'd ally an INQ lord with hood.

ender502

Not bad. Two premium assault squads and three nasty tank hunting units are good choices, as are the Scouts.
You might have trouble in missions with four of five objectives.

ender502 wrote:

Alphus wrote:y not drop the other raider and put in a couple of drop-podding dreads with twin heavy flamers?

Flamer dreads are sweet but I don't know if it's worth the trad eoff in terms of insta kills. If this is going to be a viable and cometitiv elist I nee dto be able to deal with LASH and nob bikes. Multiple insta kill weapons does that faily well when they are on manueverable platforms.

ender502

Don't know about you but i'm pretty sure that LASH and nob bikers can take 1 measly LR. LASH on the other hand .... that's y you have snipers and the other meltaguns right? You do plan to actually DO something with your troop choices and just not take them because you absolutely have to right?

just a thing i dont have my codex here but doesnt it state that its just flamers heavy flamers that gets vulkan bonus not flamers on the reedemer?

wuestenfux wrote:Not bad. Two premium assault squads and three nasty tank hunting units are good choices, as are the Scouts.
You might have trouble in missions with four of five objectives.

That's what i'm afraid of..... I will consider dropping an attack bike squad in favor of more troops if It proves necesary. I am hoping not though... I like all the multi-meltas and everything counts in numbers.

Alphus wrote:
Don't know about you but i'm pretty sure that LASH and nob bikers can take 1 measly LR. LASH on the other hand .... that's y you have snipers and the other meltaguns right? You do plan to actually DO something with your troop choices and just not take them because you absolutely have to right?

It's 2 land raiders.. 1 is a dedicated transport an dteh other is a HS choice. The scouts do actually shoot when they get the opportunity. But they aren't looking for it. They shoot when they can and stay alive. That's enough. It's the other units that do the killing.

Skurk3n wrote:just a thing i dont have my codex here but doesnt it state that its just flamers heavy flamers that gets vulkan bonus not flamers on the reedemer?

You are correct..flamers and heavy flamers only. But at S6 and AP 3...I shouldn't need the reroll to wound too often.

If I could figure a way to get lysander in the list...or a couple of tech marines...or a couple of thunderfire cannons..... Yeah, 2 thunderfires would work well. Crazy shooting, difficult terrain and dangerous terrain tests as well as being able to reinforce cover saves...That'd be sweet. Probably what I'd go for in the 2 k version of the list.

ender502

LR's.... is that everyone's answer to everything? "I'll just take a LR and my units will get where they need to be unscathed." What ever happened to people actually tactics to get into HTH? No offense dude but the LR's are the problem, not the answer.

I agree with you. I was using an LRC in my BA army. It always got the job done too. I had a lot of other vehicles as well so I could place them around the LRC in such a manner that my opponent's could not deep strike melta toting units close enough to shoot it at 1/2 range. I finally decided to change one of my HQ choices and drop the LRC. A lot of my tactics are still exactly the same but the army Is more effective overall without the big tank.

G

Alphus wrote:LR's.... is that everyone's answer to everything? "I'll just take a LR and my units will get where they need to be unscathed." What ever happened to people actually tactics to get into HTH? No offense dude but the LR's are the problem, not the answer.

I get it...I don't gush over your suggestions so now you have to slam the raiders. This isn't about tactics...this is about your net ego. You play your army and i'll play mine. But let's just turn this around a bit...Pods? Is that everyone's suggestion for everything? What ever happened to tactics? Now that was pissy...but here is the real reason I don't want podded dreads...if they are going to be effective they need to be vens or iron clads. 2 of either equipped and podded will cost more than a raider. I'll have to drop termies too. Doing that kills quite a bit of the insta kill power necesary to take on nob bikes. Will I trade all those TH hits for 4 heavy flamers and 6? dread attacks? No...add in the loss of either the las cannons or the redeemer flamers and this is no question at all.

I love dreads..I especially love them in high terrain games like city fight...but unless you are gonna take them en mass...4 or 6 I don't think they are worth the points.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I agree with you. I was using an LRC in my BA army. It always got the job done too. I had a lot of other vehicles as well so I could place them around the LRC in such a manner that my opponent's could not deep strike melta toting units close enough to shoot it at 1/2 range. I finally decided to change one of my HQ choices and drop the LRC. A lot of my tactics are still exactly the same but the army Is more effective overall without the big tank.

G

Yah, that's why you are championing this list? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/225130.page

I knew you were a troll but a hypocrite as well? That's surprising. Suggestion...don't complain about a tactic in one thread when you are championing it in another. You can hit the iggy button now.... please feel free to challenge me to come to florida and say i'm not a real man if I don't.

ender502

Don't get all defensive with your build, it's a discussion for **** sake!

Dreads behind the LR could work.

Your troops need more maxing out. And possibly your Terminators.

Redeemers aren't great. Couldn't you run your Assault Terminators behind a Land Raider. Up the wounds a bit in the squad by dropping the Redeemer. Lash could be a problem, but being behind the LR means you won't really move anywhere you dont want to (which is closer to the enemy)

Also can't you attach attack bikes to normal bike squads? I.e. 1 bike + 2 attack bike w/Multi-Melta, it'll help you spread some wounds around. Yup i'm a bit newb to SM codex lol.

I like it. I wouldn't change a thing. That's a rarity for me.

Ok I'd actually drop some scouts to make the thunder hammer squads 6 man but that's just 'cause I don't see grabbing objectives to be an immediate priority for this army where as hitting stuff with hammers is.

Also I'd consider infiltrating your scouts into a position where they can jump into the raiders once the terminators have been deployed (so that they will survive and so that you will have scoring land raiders). With that in mind I'd give them shotguns or bolters so they can move and fire.

Whatever you do keep all 9 attack bikes. They are brutal when they're twin linked.

I also think this is a very good list.

Obviously, the scouts are the weak link, but you have a lot of offense to take care of whatever might go after them. Be very mindful of missions with 2 objectives though--if you place your objective first, smart players will try to force you to split up your terminators, one to babysit scouts and the other to attack. You don't have anything deep striking so you'll need to commit yourself to a plan early on, though you do have the turbo-boost x-factor going for you.

Hordes will be your biggest challenge--I'd switch your regular LR for another Redeemer to help with that. You don't need the lascannons when you have 9 mobile multimeltas.

storm knight wrote:Don't get all defensive with your build, it's a discussion for **** sake!

Point taken..consider me admonished... I just hate it when people turn up thei rnose at a list for some perceived lack of "tactical finesse." This list isn't uber by any means and will be seriously challenged by hordes of orcs, sisters and IG...it's against those armies where tactics, terrain and manuever become important.

storm knight wrote:
Dreads behind the LR could work.

Yes, but if you are shielding the dread you are also stopping it from firing...or limiting its' firing arcs.

storm knight wrote:
Your troops need more maxing out. And possibly your Terminators.

I am more concerned about the scouts than anything else. They are horribly fragile.

storm knight wrote:
Redeemers aren't great. Couldn't you run your Assault Terminators behind a Land Raider. Up the wounds a bit in the squad by dropping the Redeemer. Lash could be a problem, but being behind the LR means you won't really move anywhere you dont want to (which is closer to the enemy)

The LR is a big model...being behind it means an assult (assuming the enemy stands still) in 1 or 2 turns.

storm knight wrote:
Also can't you attach attack bikes to normal bike squads? I.e. 1 bike + 2 attack bike w/Multi-Melta, it'll help you spread some wounds around. Yup i'm a bit newb to SM codex lol.

Yes, you can add as ingle attack bike to a bike squad. That's 90 points plus the price o fteh attack bike but does giv eteh attack bike more survivability. Not sure how I feel about thetrade off in forepower though.

Gorilla Serialist wrote:
Also I'd consider infiltrating your scouts into a position where they can jump into the raiders once the terminators have been deployed (so that they will survive and so that you will have scoring land raiders). With that in mind I'd give them shotguns or bolters so they can move and fire.

Whatever you do keep all 9 attack bikes. They are brutal when they're twin linked.

I hadn't considered putting the scouts into the LR at some point..... I had always seen them sniping and trying to grab objectives. That is certainly something to think about. 9 TL multi will hit about.... 8 out 9 times...that's pretty insane. With a less effective range of 36" and a more effective range of 24" I think these guys are going to be hell on earth. They will tear through oblits and put a hurt on nob bikers..even with cover saves.

Thanks for the input
ender502

Danny Internets wrote:
Hordes will be your biggest challenge--I'd switch your regular LR for another Redeemer to help with that. You don't need the lascannons when you have 9 mobile multimeltas.

That is a VERY good point. Would you go with redeemer or LRC?

ender502

I personally like the Redeemer, but I don't have any experience with it. If you're going to be charging into the thick of things you can fire one flamer using normal rules and the other at a different target using the machine spirit rules, so that's a perk.

Either one is an improvement over the standard model. The LRR will save you 10 points while the LRC costs 10 more (I think).

I concur, a second redeemer is a good idea, though those ten points should probably go toward giving it a (twin-linked) multimelta. Everything in this army can move 12" and fire a weapon so placing the flamestorm templates isn't going to be too bad as you can pick your battles.

I'll have to look at both LR variants...I love the flamer on the redeemer but really love the hurrican bolters and assault cannon for putting the hurt on orks.

Also, I am not sure I really want to get rid of the range of the lascannon. IA m going to hav eto playtest all the options.

Since I think this list will be competitive versus lash and nob biker...how do you thin kit'll do against other opponents? How will my choice of LR type effect my chances versus non-tier armies (the ones i mostly will have trouble with.)?

ender502

I prefer the LRC or LRR to a standard Land Raider. The standard LR has an identity crisis - do I move up and disgorge assault troops, or hang back and fire my Godhammers? The LRC and LRR are there to deliver assault troops into combat. You move them quickly across the board, shoot something close, drop assault troopers, and then move around picking off secondary targets.

I don't think it's an OMG unbeatable list, but it looks solid and fun to play. It'll give some people fits and might get tabled by others (the right Tau build or Mech Eldar might hurt).

dietrich wrote:I prefer the LRC or LRR to a standard Land Raider. The standard LR has an identity crisis - do I move up and disgorge assault troops, or hang back and fire my Godhammers? The LRC and LRR are there to deliver assault troops into combat. You move them quickly across the board, shoot something close, drop assault troopers, and then move around picking off secondary targets.

Another very good argument against the standard patter Raider.

dietrich wrote:I don't think it's an OMG unbeatable list, but it looks solid and fun to play. It'll give some people fits and might get tabled by others (the right Tau build or Mech Eldar might hurt).

Yep, honestly i am more worried about the tier 2 builds than the powerbuilds. Against Tau I imagine i'll have to use the scouts more aggressively. Mech dar and DEAirCavalry...i'll have to hope massed multi-meltas can take out the bright and darklances before they can hurt my raiders too badly.

I am used to playing with armies with more units than this. It's going to be a stretch for me.

ender502

If you want to run this army you should read this. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/225250.page.

1 of the biggest issues with this list is figuring out that it works without analyzing as to why it works which IMO is the difference between a decent player with a good list between a great player with a good list. The redeemer works it's just that everybody thinks it wont because, it has to get into melta range to fire without realizing that all land raiders have to get into melta range to unload. Why are redeemers better than crusaders wht soes 6 twin linked bolters do to a 10 man marine squad, a nob biker squad, a pathfinder squad in cover, kroot in a forest, a PAGk unit...? Nothing compared to 2 S6 AP 3 flamers that can fire at 2 different squads.

For the list I would drop 1 bike from every unit and add 10 more scouts.

yermom wrote:If you want to run this army you should read this. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/225250.page.

1 of the biggest issues with this list is figuring out that it works without analyzing as to why it works which IMO is the difference between a decent player with a good list between a great player with a good list. The redeemer works it's just that everybody thinks it wont because, it has to get into melta range to fire without realizing that all land raiders have to get into melta range to unload. Why are redeemers better than crusaders wht soes 6 twin linked bolters do to a 10 man marine squad, a nob biker squad, a pathfinder squad in cover, kroot in a forest, a PAGk unit...? Nothing compared to 2 S6 AP 3 flamers that can fire at 2 different squads.

For the list I would drop 1 bike from every unit and add 10 more scouts.

I am a bit of a traditionalist and hence my love of the stock land raider. Great suggestion about the changing of the bikes...3 x 2 is WAY better than 2 x 3.

The advantage of the crusader is being able to bring firepower before the inevitable assault.

i appreciate your comments. It's good stuff to think about.

ender502