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Are apothecaries still considered "veterans"? all the weapon/wargear options the command squad can take only apply to veterans -- can the Apothecary be upgraded in any way?

Thanks in advance,
Logan007

Apothecaries are not veterans so don't have any options more than taking a bike if you buy them for the squad.

Yes, to add more weight, Webbe is 100% correct.

If you look at the Command Squad entry in the back you can clearly see the make up of the squad as 4 veterans and 1 apothecary. And in such making a clear distinction.

I know, I got to get around and change my apoth's gear on the model. No power weapon :(

That's not a power weapon, that's a tricked out Narthencium[sic].

I'm healing you with my sword!

Hey, it's not easy getting to that geneseed

Thanks for the replies guys.

Not only is the Apothecary not a veteran, once you upgrade one to the Company Champion then he's not a veteran either.

What is the basis from the rules to say he is not a veteran?

G

When it says that he's been upgraded from a veteran to a Company Champion. What's the basis of him being both?

Great answer as usual.

G

Yes, but there is already a precedence for this in the ork being upgraded to a Nob in a shoota boy squad found in the 5th ed Ork FAQ. Basically you can buy upgrades in what ever order you want. So, if you want to buy the soon to be Company Champion some veteran gear then upgrade him. So long as the Company Champion gear does not replace anything, you keep what you don't replace. So a Company Champion can in fact have a plasma pistol, melta bombs, or whatever.

The Ork FAQ is not a precedent. It is an exception to the rules. If you want a precedent, look at the Nobz entry in Codex Orks.

Ghaz wrote:The Ork FAQ is not a precedent. It is an exception to the rules. If you want a precedent, look at the Nobz entry in Codex Orks.

I just did, what am I looking for exactly?

Doesn't seem to be anything in there about this at all.

Please be more specific.

Edit: If you are talking about painboys then you are mistaken, as they are a sperate model with its own rules in the codex exactly like the apothecary is, and has nothing to do with buying upgrades in any order.

Either way, no where does it state how to buy upgrades, and the *only* guidance I have seen so far is this:

Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas
with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a
big choppa?
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big
choppa or power klaw before you choose to
upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case
the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon
swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap),
does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga
and power klaw/big choppa instead. He is a lot
happier that way!
CODEX: ORKS FAQ

Nob becoming a Painboy, he can't have any of the normal Wargear.

Also you have specific upgrades listed for everyone, the Nobz and just the Painboy. Why separate the upgrades into three distinct categories of who can take them if you can give anything to anybody simply by choosing to give them the upgrades first? Seems like an awful lot of wasted effort on their part if it were true.

Your FAQ is no guidance on how to buy upgrades for anyone other than that particular case. Once again, it is not a precedent, but an exception to the rule.

If you look at the entry in the codex for this unit there is a separate line item with stats for the apothecary and another one for veterans. I would allow a player to take wargear for the apothecary in a friendly game but I doubt it would fly at a big tournament as the separate line items makes it very specific.

G

Ghaz, I think you think that I am saying Apoths can take wargear. No they can't. I just say Company Champions can. They do not have a separate line and are even called an 'upgrade' by the codex. I am simply saying before the upgrade to CC, you can give him some wargear. There is no where that says what order upgrades are bought in. And the *only* guidance is from the Ork FAQ.

Please list *anywhere* that goes against this.

padixon wrote:I just say Company Champions can. They do not have a separate line and are even called an 'upgrade' by the codex.

And as I've already stated, by being upgraded, they're no longer a veteran. It's an 'upgrade', not an 'addition'. They have a separate stat line and separate options. And just because the company champion has no options of his own does not mean that he can use somebody else's.

padixon wrote:I am simply saying before the upgrade to CC, you can give him some wargear. There is no where that says what order upgrades are bought in. And the *only* guidance is from the Ork FAQ.

And yet again, you've totally ignored my question as to why they give specific upgrades to the 'veterans' or the 'apothecary' or the 'nobz' or the 'painboy' or the 'entire mob'. Why even bother to do that if you can give anything to anybody simply by giving them the equipment before you upgrade them? No, your *only* guidance is not the Ork FAQ. Your guidance is the wording in the codex that tells you that when a veteran can take an option, then they mean a veteran and not an apothecary or a company champion. The Ork FAQ applies to the one instance it specifically covers. It is not a precedent, it is an exception to the rules.

padixon wrote:Please list *anywhere* that goes against this.

I already have and you've chosen to ignore it.

Edited: Deleted, CC does have his own stat line, good catch Ghaz.

I'm just wondering, Is there anywhere that firmly says that you have to take options in a certain order because I doubt it. While to me I take the company champion's seperate statline and treat him just like the apothecary I don't see why by the rules we would be forced too.

I understand that people think that the ork FAQ is an exception to the norm but I don't really see the norm ever being defined.

Your right though Drunkspleen. The norm has not been defined.

Which is why I stated that the Ork FAQ is our only guideline.

However, Ghaz, if you know it. Please explain why the Ork FAQ is an exception to the rule.

Basically what *rule* is it an exception to?

padixon wrote:However, Ghaz, if you know it. Please explain why the Ork FAQ is an exception to the rule.

Basically what *rule* is it an exception to?

How many times do I have to ask you this? How does it make any sense to say that a 'veteran' or a 'nob' or a 'painboy' can take an option if you can choose to do it whenever? Stop avoiding my question and answer it. Why go through all of that trouble if it doesn't matter? You keep wanting to know why the FAQ is the 'exception' to the rule? Because it makes no sense otherwise and there is no evidence on your part that it applies to anything other than the specific situation it covers. Your so-called 'precedent' does nothing other than totally muddy what is otherwise a clear set of rules.

And even if you could take the options before you upgrade the models, that would mean that you would never be able to take the options for a Painboy since there wouldn't be a Painboy until after you've gone through the squad options. Or are you going to say you can take a few options, go upgrade the model and then go back and take a few more options for the same model?

Ghaz wrote:

padixon wrote:However, Ghaz, if you know it. Please explain why the Ork FAQ is an exception to the rule.

Basically what *rule* is it an exception to?

How many times do I have to ask you this? How does it make any sense to say that a 'veteran' or a 'nob' or a 'painboy' can take an option if you can choose to do it whenever? Stop avoiding my question and answer it. Why go through all of that trouble if it doesn't matter? You keep wanting to know why the FAQ is the 'exception' to the rule? Because it makes no sense otherwise and there is no evidence on your part that it applies to anything other than the specific situation it covers. Your so-called 'precedent' does nothing other than totally muddy what is otherwise a clear set of rules.

And even if you could take the options before you upgrade the models, that would mean that you would never be able to take the options for a Painboy since there wouldn't be a Painboy until after you've gone through the squad options. Or are you going to say you can take a few options, go upgrade the model and then go back and take a few more options for the same model?

What? This made no sense whatsoever

and let me ask this again "Basically what *rule* is it an exception to?"

There must be a rule somewhere please list it.

and this

And even if you could take the options before you upgrade the models, that would mean that you would never be able to take the options for a Painboy since there wouldn't be a Painboy until after you've gone through the squad options. Or are you going to say you can take a few options, go upgrade the model and then go back and take a few more options for the same model?

made no sense at all. I simply mean you can take say melta bombs for a veteran and then upgrade him to a CC as shown as possible from the Ork FAQ.

The Ork FAQ did show that you can do 'upgrades' in a different order. You keep saying there is some rule that this is an exception to, but you fail to produce one. Book and page number if you please.

Edit, if it makes no sense than why can Nobz do it? Surely that makes sense. Does it not make sense to buy melta bombs for a veteran, and then upgrade him to a company champion? How on earth does this not make sense.

And yet again, your refusal to answer my question shows that you can't answer why they list upgrades for specific models if they're available for anybody, yet you want someone to believe that a FAQ for one unit only is actually a rule for everyone. You want us to believe the FAQ is the rule, yet you can't explain why nor can you refute the reasons why it is not the rule.

And you've yet to explain how a model can be a 'Nob' for some of his upgrades and then suddenly becomes a 'Painboy' for the rest of his upgrades. He is one or the other, not both.

Ghaz wrote:And yet again, your refusal to answer my question shows that you can't answer why they list upgrades for specific models if they're available for anybody, yet you want someone to believe that a FAQ for one unit only is actually a rule for everyone. You want us to believe the FAQ is the rule, yet you can't explain why nor can you refute the reasons why it is not the rule.

And you've yet to explain how a model can be a 'Nob' for some of his upgrades and then suddenly becomes a 'Painboy' for the rest of his upgrades. He is one or the other, not both.

Personally I think the painboy is a bad example due to the wording "One nob may be a painboy" to me means that if you take that option he was never a nob, but rather a nob drops out and a painboy comes in, In this situation, like the apothecary I think there's no case for giving them the items.

What makes a chapter champion a different case is that he is clearly listed as being an upgrade for the model that takes it, rather than replacing one model with another. So just like a Nob in a boyz mob can take the boyz's upgrade before taking the nob upgrade, a veteran can take any veteran upgrades before taking the company champion upgrade.

That is my personal take on the situation, that the change in statline must be explicitly listed as an upgrade for the model for them to be allowed access to their older armory options.

edit: Regarding your question of why they give specific upgrades to specific sections of the unit, it's because there are still members of this same unit that are restricted access to them, despite the upgraded models being able to take them before thier upgrade.

Even regardless of that fact I fail to see why the choice to be specific necesarily means that there's a restricted order to the upgrades which is some sort of unwritten rule. At the risk of seeming to make a strawman argument, when I buy my car, the optional extras are the optional extras for that model of car, and I can have my choice of them, it doesn't matter that I go to a workshop and swap out the engine once I have left the lot.

Ghaz wrote:And yet again, your refusal to answer my question shows that you can't answer why they list upgrades for specific models if they're available for anybody, yet you want someone to believe that a FAQ for one unit only is actually a rule for everyone. You want us to believe the FAQ is the rule, yet you can't explain why nor can you refute the reasons why it is not the rule.

And you've yet to explain how a model can be a 'Nob' for some of his upgrades and then suddenly becomes a 'Painboy' for the rest of his upgrades. He is one or the other, not both.

Here your question and answer:

When it says that he's been upgraded from a veteran to a Company Champion. What's the basis of him being both?

Because he is a veteran as detailed in the unit composition (**4** veterans and 1 apothecary) He is an *upgrade* not a replacement like is worded for a painboy, *just* like a Nob is an upgrade *not* a replacement for an ork.

The painboy is not a good argument because it is worded as a replacement, more specifically "a Nob may be a painboy"
The Company Champion is worded as an 'upgrade'.
The Nob in question is *also* worded as an 'upgrade'

And like **all** upgrades, there is **no** order in which to take them.
And hence I brought up the Ork FAQ.

Now sir answer my question

"Basically what *rule* is it an exception to?"

I believe you can not. You said it is an exception to some rule. Yet you fail to produce one.

Your entire argument is based on what you think is the *right* way. With a total of *0* facts found either in the BGB or any codex to back up anything you have said.

I at the very least pointed out a point in which GW at the very least ruled in favor of 'upgrades' being taken in a different order.

so far I believe the score (if you are keeping any) are:

Support from FAQs/Codex/BGB

Ghaz: 0
padixon: 1

Look Ghaz I am not saying your wrong. I am saying you have not supported your stance. By support I mean any rule found anywhere. So far you are asking myself and any other reader to just take your word on it.

You may very well be right. And if so, cool. I am *just* saying that the *only* guidance we have ever had as players is found in the Ork FAQ. As I have said before and you quoted me saying.

There is no where that says what order upgrades are bought in. And the *only* guidance is from the Ork FAQ.

I have been saying this for days now. So relax Ghaz and breath. I am not attacking you, just showing you that you have no support for your stance, and the stance I took *does* as found in an Ork FAQ, as I have said it is *guidance* as quoted above. Not *its in a FAQ, that means its law*, for some reason that is how you are taking this.

Edit: Ghaz, if you can find some rule/FAQ/anything that says anything about taking 'upgrades' in a specific order, I will believe you and drop my stance altogether, because as you see, I am basing what I think from a loosely written Ork FAQ answer and for the fact that there is nothing anywhere that *I* have read that says upgrades have to be taken in a specific order, except the opposite found in the Ork FAQ. Again, I said the only guidance we have ever seen was found in a FAQ.

drunkspleen wrote:Regarding your question of why they give specific upgrades to specific sections of the unit, it's because there are still members of this same unit that are restricted access to them, despite the upgraded models being able to take them before thier upgrade.

That makes no sense whatsoever. So a model can take an option not available to him before he's been upgraded to that type of model? I call that a bit of a stretch on your part.

padixon wrote:Because he is a veteran as detailed in the unit composition (**4** veterans and 1 apothecary) He is an *upgrade* not a replacement like is worded for a painboy,...

An upgrade IS a replacement. Once again, 'upgrade' does not mean 'in addition'. It does not matter what the unit composition says, because you've taken an option for the unit to upgrade him to something else.

padixon wrote:Look Ghaz I am not saying your wrong. I am saying you have not supported your stance.

I've more than amply supported my stance as to why the FAQ can NOT be taken as a 'precedent'. You've not supported yours beyond a 'because I say so' attitude. The FAQ never once says it's for anything other than that one situation, does it? No. Yet then why do you keep saying that it does, in spite of all of the problems and inconsitencies doing so would cause? The FAQ does not support you in the least. It does not say that it applies to anything other than that one specific instance.

Nowhere once have I ever said that I had my position supported by the rules. Your position is not supported by the rules either. Yet your position causes numerous problems that more than amply shows that it can not be taken as a 'precedent' and can NOT be applied in any other instance than what it specifically covers.

Ghaz wrote:An upgrade IS a replacement. Once again, 'upgrade' does not mean 'in addition'. It does not matter what the unit composition says, because you've taken an option for the unit to upgrade him to something else.

This does make a rather considerable amount of sense. Taking any sort of wargear up/sidegrade requires replacement on the part of the original loadout, i.e. bolters for heavy weapons, sluggas for shootas, unless it specifies otherwise as with Imperial Guardsmen and lasguns/heavy weapons. An Ironclad Dreadnought can take a Hunter/Killer missile, but if it upgrades its storm bolter/meltagun to a heavy flamer it must trade a weapon.

Ghaz wrote:

drunkspleen wrote:Regarding your question of why they give specific upgrades to specific sections of the unit, it's because there are still members of this same unit that are restricted access to them, despite the upgraded models being able to take them before thier upgrade.

That makes no sense whatsoever. So a model can take an option not available to him before he's been upgraded to that type of model? I call that a bit of a stretch on your part.

Hmmm I get the feeling you have misunderstood, what I was trying to say is, they are specific for the sake of the apothecary, who cannot take the upgrades that veterans are entitled to, however, a veteran is allowed to take those very upgrades prior to upgrading to a company champion.

Either way it seems you disagree with this position, but I just felt I should clarify what I was trying to convey.

sourclams wrote:

Ghaz wrote:An upgrade IS a replacement. Once again, 'upgrade' does not mean 'in addition'. It does not matter what the unit composition says, because you've taken an option for the unit to upgrade him to something else.

This does make a rather considerable amount of sense. Taking any sort of wargear up/sidegrade requires replacement on the part of the original loadout, i.e. bolters for heavy weapons, sluggas for shootas, unless it specifies otherwise as with Imperial Guardsmen and lasguns/heavy weapons. An Ironclad Dreadnought can take a Hunter/Killer missile, but if it upgrades its storm bolter/meltagun to a heavy flamer it must trade a weapon.

But you have hit it on the head, if it upgrades to a heavy flamer it must trade a weapon, because the options list it has say "Replace storm bolter with heavy flamer" and "Replace meltagun with heavy flamer", however it just says "Take up to two hunter-killer missiles".

Similarly, the command squad entry says that "Any Veteran may replace his chainsword and/or bolt pistol with:" but it does not say anything about replacing in the Company Champion option, "One Veteran may be upgraded to a Company Champion with a power weapon and combat shield".

I see no more reason to believe that the Company Champion upgrade requires some sort of replacement than that the company standard must replace a weapon, or if you decide to mount the unit on bikes each one replaces a weapon with the bike.

And again, taking the options before upgrading would mean that an Ork Nobz unit would never allow the model's in the unit to have Cybork bodies, since at the time of choosing the options, there is no Painboy for it to be "... the Painboys unit...".