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I think the CC still counts as a veteran and can take additional wargear since the rules state he is an upgraded from a veteran which is not the case for the medic. See the BA entry for honorguard as a reference.

G

Ghaz wrote:And again, taking the options before upgrading would mean that an Ork Nobz unit would never allow the model's in the unit to have Cybork bodies, since at the time of choosing the options, there is no Painboy for it to be "... the Painboys unit...".

What? This makes no sense either. I don't even know where to begin. I have no idea where you are going with this.

a painboy is *not* an upgrade, he is a replacement "a Nob may be a painboy" not an upgrade. A company champion is an upgrade. Apples and Oranges my friend.

And again, how are you giving an option to a Painboy who's not a Painboy at the time you're giving him his options? He's either an Ork Boy or he's a Painboy, so he either takes the options available to one or the other. So which is it?

And you still don't get it. 'Upgrade' /= 'in addition'. 'Upgrade' means 'promote'. If you upgrade the veteran to a company champion you no longer have a veteran, nor do you have a veteran/company champion hybrid. Yo have a company champion, full stop. He's been promoted.

@ Ghaz

So, you are saying that a Nob in a boyz mob can not take a big shoota?

Or, In the old SM codex, have you never seen a Vet Sgt in a spacemarine squad with a flamer?

These are all 'upgrades' that took their weapon choice from the unit selection because they were boyz/space marines prior to the upgrades. Or, in many eyes are *still* boyz and spacemaines even as a Nob or Vet Sgt.

Just like a Company Champion is a veteran and would choose from the veteran. Plus at no point does he stop being a veteran as he is a veteran that has been upgraded. Just like the above examples.

If you honestly believe that a Nob in a boyz Mob can not have a big shoota/rokit launcha. Then we will just have to agree to disagree.

Neither one of us will believe the other.

If you upgrade your software will your boss automatically give you a promotion? If so it's high time to call the IT department.

G

you can upgrade in any order you wish. So if you upgrade a vet to a apoc. then he is still a vet. Now take the painboy for example he is a nob he can take nob wargear but he cant exchange his weapons because he needs then to turn into a painboy (exchange slugga and choppa for urty syringe and docs tools) So if you need to exchane gear for something then make sure you keep the gear. If he starts as a vet you can choose to upgrade to a apoc. after buying gear. But if hes just bought as a straight apoc. then hes got what hes got and can only buy wargear thats allowed to him.

as far as painboys they start as nobs not boys, and thats how it works, that way you can get a PB on a bike or with eavy armor. I had to call GW on this and they agreed and said it follows the same rules for the boys mobs (can a shoota mob have a nob with a PK) you upgrade in any order you choose. And a pain boy is not a replacement he is an upgrade. A nob can be a painboy (a car can have a supercharger) Another example is the + sign a pain boy is +30 points if he wasnt a upgrade then he would have a straight point value. Either way this thread is about apoc. not pain boys, but thats how it works, straight from GW in print and on the phone.

Seriously, back the truck up. The Lengths people are prepaired to take to justify their cheating...

All this is very, very easy.

Apothecaries are NOT Veterans.
Painboys are NOT Nobs.

da gob smaka wrote:you can upgrade in any order you wish.

No you can not. Otherwise once again, you would have to give options to models that you don't yet have. Or are you saying that you can give an option to the squad that relies on having a Painboy in the squad before you upgrade a Nob to a Painboy? The Rough Rider entry in Codex Imperial Guard makes it quite clear you can't choose upgrades in any order you want.

Ghaz I need that promotion. Hee

G

When you get enough posts, then you'll be promoted and your title won't be 'King of yee old time trolles', will it? No. It will be something else. Or will you have two or more titles under your name?

I am a DCM so I can have as many titles as the maximum number of character spaces allows.



G

Then you're not being 'upgraded'.

I will talk to IT. Let me know if you would like something.
G

Ghaz wrote:

da gob smaka wrote:you can upgrade in any order you wish.

No you can not. Otherwise once again, you would have to give options to models that you don't yet have. Or are you saying that you can give an option to the squad that relies on having a Painboy in the squad before you upgrade a Nob to a Painboy? The Rough Rider entry in Codex Imperial Guard makes it quite clear you can't choose upgrades in any order you want.

No, because you can do it in any order, but once again the Painboy is a bad example since I feel he's not an upgrade and instead replaces a Nob.

But taking the chapter champion, you could purchase him a plasma pistol, then upgrade him to the champion, then proceed to purchase a power weapon for another member of the squad and bikes for everyone. You can do anything in any order, so no you can't take squad options that require a painboy before having a painboy, but why would that be a problem, the only upgrade that requires the painboy is cybork bodies which are "all models" not just "Nobs".

Any order doesn't mean you can ignore pre-requisites, just that they can be met at any time. All we are claiming is that you can run through the list of upgrades as many times as you want taking whatever upgrades would be valid at that point. Rather than the single run through of the options you seem to claim applies.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Ghaz wrote:

da gob smaka wrote:you can upgrade in any order you wish.

No you can not. Otherwise once again, you would have to give options to models that you don't yet have. Or are you saying that you can give an option to the squad that relies on having a Painboy in the squad before you upgrade a Nob to a Painboy? The Rough Rider entry in Codex Imperial Guard makes it quite clear you can't choose upgrades in any order you want.

No, because you can do it in any order, but once again the Painboy is a bad example since I feel he's not an upgrade and instead replaces a Nob.

But taking the chapter champion, you could purchase him a plasma pistol, then upgrade him to the champion, then proceed to purchase a power weapon for another member of the squad and bikes for everyone. You can do anything in any order, so no you can't take squad options that require a painboy before having a painboy, but why would that be a problem, the only upgrade that requires the painboy is cybork bodies which are "all models" not just "Nobs".

Any order doesn't mean you can ignore pre-requisites, just that they can be met at any time. All we are claiming is that you can run through the list of upgrades as many times as you want taking whatever upgrades would be valid at that point. Rather than the single run through of the options you seem to claim applies.

Sorry, it just doesn't work this way, it never worked this way. A Company Chamption is not a Veteran. Both have diffrent profiles/designations, and choose "upgrades" according to their designations.
Their is just NO way you can justify otherwise. It's just not gonna fly.

It's not the same case as an apothecary since there is no wording that states you upgrade the medic.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:It's not the same case as an apothecary since there is no wording that states you upgrade the medic.

G

No its the same thing, the only differance is that it was "automatically bought". The same limitations still apply.

Bla_Ze wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:It's not the same case as an apothecary since there is no wording that states you upgrade the medic.

G

No its the same thing, the only differance is that it was "automatically bought". The same limitations still apply.

Look into the SM codex and you will see you are mistaken.

It says: Unit Composition

4 Veterans
1 Apothicary

This is only a 5 man squad

The apothecary was never/is never a veteran. I'm sorry your stance is broken from the beginning.

If you honestly say 'no to Nobs having a big shoota in a boyz squad', then lets drop this, because it is the same thing as a Company Champion having melta bombs and/or a plasma pistol.

We are just gonna have to agree to disagree.

QFT

G

Drunkspleen wrote:No, because you can do it in any order, but once again the Painboy is a bad example since I feel he's not an upgrade and instead replaces a Nob.

And when you upgrade a veteran to a company champion you no longer have a veteran, as he's now a company champion. You don't have both. He's one or the other.

padixon wrote:

Bla_Ze wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:It's not the same case as an apothecary since there is no wording that states you upgrade the medic.

G

No its the same thing, the only differance is that it was "automatically bought". The same limitations still apply.

Look into the SM codex and you will see you are mistaken.

It says: Unit Composition

4 Veterans
1 Apothicary

This is only a 5 man squad

The apothecary was never/is never a veteran. I'm sorry your stance is broken from the beginning.

If you honestly say 'no to Nobs having a big shoota in a boyz squad', then lets drop this, because it is the same thing as a Company Champion having melta bombs and/or a plasma pistol.

We are just gonna have to agree to disagree.

Good job at missing the point...
Painboys,Apothecaries, comany champions... they work the same way... Some are "taken", "upgraded" "gift from jesus" Whatever.

What does boyz squad big shoota have to do with this? Its a completley diffrent wording.

And no, you dont agree to disagree when you are clearly breaking the rules.

If someone says agree to disagree it's best to leave at that.

G

This forum has taught me something very important - that there are a lot of people out there that I don't want to play with.

I feel the more I read, the more stupid I become.

Ghaz wrote:

da gob smaka wrote:you can upgrade in any order you wish.

No you can not. Otherwise once again, you would have to give options to models that you don't yet have. Or are you saying that you can give an option to the squad that relies on having a Painboy in the squad before you upgrade a Nob to a Painboy? The Rough Rider entry in Codex Imperial Guard makes it quite clear you can't choose upgrades in any order you want.

Yes exactly. this is how it works, straight from GW. It all started with the can a nob in a shoota mob have a PK. Yes you upgrade in any order you choose, so the boy upgrades to a nob takes a PK and the mob upgrades to shootas. Now if a codex says you cant do it then you cant (i.e BT and gaurd veh are dedicated) really this is quite simple and has been answered FAQ'd and re-answered by GW.

So in the case of NOBs you buy the war gear (its how you get eavy armor and a bike for a painboy) then upgrade (again + means add to so its an upgrade) one to a pain boy as long as the model kept the slugga/choopa he can be a pain boy, because he trades both for urty syringe and docs tools. So now you have a pain boy with a bike (or eavy armor, or a wagggh banner) Honestly the lengths some of the arguments go to, this is a topic that was settled by GW almost as soon as 5th ame out.

you upgrade a unit/model in any order you choose (unless your codex specifically over rides this, as GW has stated the codex takes precedence over rules, if your veh are dedicated in your codex then they are dedicated for your army. If your codex says you have to do X before Y then thats the way that army does it.)

As far as what "you" personally feel, it dosent matter GW says a pain boy is a upgraded nob. As would a Apoc. if he starts as a veteran, if he dosent the hes not.

As far as what Pdixon wrote theres your answer a apoc starts and ends as an apoc. (be means he would be a veteran as well as an apoc, just like a special forces medic is still a special forces soilder hes just a trained medic as well.)

No, it does not. Once again, you can NOT take a FAQ for a single unit as a 'precedent'. You have no proof that it is a precedent, not can you justify any of the problems your so called 'precedent' causes.

Ghaz wrote:

da gob smaka wrote:you can upgrade in any order you wish.

No you can not. Otherwise once again, you would have to give options to models that you don't yet have. Or are you saying that you can give an option to the squad that relies on having a Painboy in the squad before you upgrade a Nob to a Painboy? The Rough Rider entry in Codex Imperial Guard makes it quite clear you can't choose upgrades in any order you want.

Yes exactly. this is how it works, straight from GW. It all started with the can a nob in a shoota mob have a PK. Yes you upgrade in any order you choose, so the boy upgrades to a nob takes a PK and the mob upgrades to shootas. Now if a codex says you cant do it then you cant (i.e BT and gaurd veh are dedicated) really this is quite simple and has been answered FAQ'd and re-answered by GW.

Obviously you are delued, since when do a answer in a faq for a diffrent codex AND rule wording apply to all other codexes and wordings?

you upgrade a unit/model in any order you choose (unless your codex specifically over rides this, as GW has stated the codex takes precedence over rules, if your veh are dedicated in your codex then they are dedicated for your army. If your codex says you have to do X before Y then thats the way that army does it.)

If you could produce som proof that you acctualy can upgrade in any order you can, it would be another deal. GW ruleset is permissive.. that means that unless is specificly says you upgrade in any order, YOU CANT.

As far as what "you" personally feel, it dosent matter GW says a pain boy is a upgraded nob. As would a Apoc. if he starts as a veteran, if he dosent the hes not.

Pure raw, you are the one adding personal feelings.. as Veterans have specific options that ONLY Veterans can take. And as Apothecaries and Company champions are NOT veterans they cannot choose the specific options avalible to ONLY veterans.

As far as what Pdixon wrote theres your answer a apoc starts and ends as an apoc. (be means he would be a veteran as well as an apoc, just like a special forces medic is still a special forces soilder hes just a trained medic as well.)

In a scifi world with daemons, elves and superhumans that spit acid, gak thunderbolts..... logic is thrown in the gutter.

So the CC starts off as veteran, you give him the wargear you want then upgrade him to a CC. Simple really.

G

No. You upgrade him to a Company Champion and then give him any options allowed. What would be the point of certain army list entries saying that an option can be taken by only one type of model if you can get around it by taking the options in any order you want?

Where do the rules state you must purchase wargear for a model after it has been upgraded?

G

And where does it state that you can buy wargear before the upgrade? And you've yet to explain why it says 'veteran' when you're trying to give it to anybody in the squad, be he a veteran or a company champion.