Did Leman Russ go over to Khorne?

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**Black Blow Fly**

Supposedly Leman Russ armor was found at a temple dedicated to the blood god. Is it possible his inherent beserk nature got the better of him?

G

**Ghost in the Darkness**

Where did you read this "fact" in the fluff? Don't mean to be rude but I highly doubt GW would ever say that about one of the loyalist Primarck. (That doesn't seemed spelled right but I can't figure how to do it properly)

**The Thousandth Son**

Ghost in the Darkness wrote:Where did you read this "fact" in the fluff? Don't mean to be rude but I highly doubt GW would ever say that about one of the loyalist Primarck. (That doesn't seemed spelled right but I can't figure how to do it properly)

Primarch, with a CH.

I don't think so, it'd be damn cool if he did. I think the Space Wolves bloodthirsty nature suits Chaos better than a pansy loyalist chapter...no offence intended but they do worship a dead (er...mostly dead) guy on a chair. ((prepares for angry loyalist storm.))

**Lint**

Space Wolves always seemed like the drunks, and party animals of 40k, and I'm not certain but I don't think Russ had a problem with berzerking- he just liked to fight.
But where did you read this fluff?

**Storm Lord**

if it were true its more likely he left the armour there or someone 'stole' it off him and put it there-Angron would have a fit if he realised Khorne was trying to replace him... either that or Tzeenetch has some strange plan for Russ and Khorne? Probably best not to dwell on that

**somecallmeJack**

I think its less likely that Russ began worshipping chaos than he was killed & his armour placed at a shrine to khorne, or he was captured & sacrificed to khorne.

**Seamus O'Shank**

Lint wrote:Space Wolves always seemed like the drunks, and party animals of 40k, and I'm not certain but I don't think Russ had a problem with berzerking- he just liked to fight.
But where did you read this fluff?

Pun intended?

**LPetersson**

The Thousandth Son wrote:
I don't think so, it'd be damn cool if he did. I think the Space Wolves bloodthirsty nature suits Chaos better than a pansy loyalist chapter...no offence intended but they do worship a dead (er...mostly dead) guy on a chair. ((prepares for angry loyalist storm.))

Actually, the Space Wolves aren't blood thirsty. They just love to fight. And drink ale. And maybe fight a little more while they're drinking...

Example, World Eaters fight for the sake of bloodshed and carnage, Space wolves do it to keep humanity safe.

Also, Space Wolves don't worship the Emperor as a god. they venerate him as the mightiest warrior that ever lived.

Leman Russ occasionally send a Great Company visions which they then follow on a great hunt. Usually this entails discovering and foiling some foul chaos plot.
I can't think of any fluff with Russ' armour in a khornate temple, but I'd love to hear of it if there is...

**The Thousandth Son**

LPetersson wrote:

Actually, the Space Wolves aren't blood thirsty. They just love to fight. And drink ale. And maybe fight a little more while they're drinking...

Example, World Eaters fight for the sake of bloodshed and carnage, Space wolves do it to keep humanity safe.

Also, Space Wolves don't worship the Emperor as a god. they venerate him as the mightiest warrior that ever lived.

Leman Russ occasionally send a Great Company visions which they then follow on a great hunt. Usually this entails discovering and foiling some foul chaos plot.
I can't think of any fluff with Russ' armour in a khornate temple, but I'd love to hear of it if there is...

The Norse berserkers got high of yew trees and went into battle and since the Space Wolves are based off the Vikings I guess that makes sense.

The World Eaters are just cool that way.

Right I understand that, they have great respect for the Emperor, that doesn't mean they have to blindly follow him...well they do only as long as they choose to remain loyal. Besides think of how badass they would be if they were renegades, they would officially be my second favorite chapter (cause there's simply no beating the Thousand Sons).

Yeah me too.

**LPetersson**

The Thousandth Son wrote:
Right I understand that, they have great respect for the Emperor, that doesn't mean they have to blindly follow him...well they do only as long as they choose to remain loyal. Besides think of how badass they would be if they were renegades, they would officially be my second favorite chapter (cause there's simply no beating the Thousand Sons).
Yeah me too.

They unquestioningly follow the emperor, but not the imperial institutions. Woe betide the =][= that tries to land on Fenris ^_^
And they have nearly been declared heretics by the =][= a few times because we don't follow orders from non-space wolves very well

But they are so badass that the empire couldn't face losing them.

Remember that are only two forces in the Empire:
1) Space wolves
2) Support

**The Thousandth Son**

LPetersson wrote:

They unquestioningly follow the emperor, but not the imperial institutions. Woe betide the =][= that tries to land on Fenris ^_^
And they have nearly been declared heretics by the =][= a few times because we don't follow orders from non-space wolves very well

But they are so badass that the empire couldn't face losing them.

Remember that are only two forces in the Empire:
1) Space wolves
2) Support

Well then they should be heretics, **** the Emperor and **** the Inquisition, they should do what they want when they want to do it.

It's the Imperium not the Empire. And that just makes things easier for us.

No.
1) Corpse on a throne
2) his pathetic lapdogs

**1hadhq**

The Thousandth Son wrote:
I don't think so, it'd be damn cool if he did. I think the Space Wolves bloodthirsty nature suits Chaos better than a pansy loyalist chapter...no offence intended but they do worship a dead (er...mostly dead) guy on a chair. ((prepares for angry loyalist storm.))

I don't think youre prepared.

Accept that your 1ksons got beaten by Russ. And they didn't see that coming......

The Thousandth Son wrote:
Well then they should be heretics, **** the Emperor and **** the Inquisition, they should do what they want when they want to do it.

It's the Imperium not the Empire. And that just makes things easier for us.

No.
1) Corpse on a throne
2) his pathetic lapdogs

Does those spear in the eye of your Primarch hurt soo much

Or is it just the massive illusion Tzentch uses to confuse you?

1) SW don't need a Emperor to hold their hand
2) a dog may bite

**The Thousandth Son**

1hadhq wrote:
I don't think youre prepared.

Accept that your 1ksons got beaten by Russ. And they didn't see that coming......

Does those spear in the eye of your Primarch hurt soo much
Or is it just the massive illusion Tzentch uses to confuse you?

1) SW don't need a Emperor to hold their hand
2) a dog may bite

Ouch! It's ok we forgives ya'. You were blinded by the Emperor (and still are) you had too.

No because we're made of dust

.
Tzeentch is the truth.

1) Prove it!

2) The Emperor's got a muzzle on you, the Chaos Gods know how to remove it.

**1hadhq**

The Thousandth Son wrote:
1hadhq wrote:
I don't think youre prepared.

Accept that your 1ksons got beaten by Russ. And they didn't see that coming......

Does those spear in the eye of your Primarch hurt soo much
Or is it just the massive illusion Tzentch uses to confuse you?

1) SW don't need a Emperor to hold their hand
2) a dog may bite

Ouch! It's ok we forgives ya'. You were blinded by the Emperor (and still are) you had too.

No because we're made of dust .
Tzeentch is the truth.

1) Prove it!
2) The Emperor's got a muzzle on you, the Chaos Gods know how to remove it.

Made of Dust

shows you're only Dust,not yet on the ground.

And tzentchy-baby stopped saying both at the same time?
Tricked you once into service and you still believe in these "bird-creature".

Didn't your beloved studys tell you better than to obey the products of xenos?

I'll stay with my man-on-the-chair, at least i always know where he is

**Black Blow Fly**

Space Wolves are extremely independent and fickle by nature. The new Chaos Space Marine codex tells how some Space Wolves betrayed their fellow brothers to save their own skins and turn to Chaos. The 13th Company is symbolic of companies that broke their oaths of fealty. Leman Russ fought with a daemon weapon he took from a fell champion he killed.

G

**Black Blow Fly**

The ecclesiarch declared war on the SW home world Fenris. The only successor chapter for SW went all wulfen.

G

**Lint**

The 13th company wolves are the only ones old enough to remember Russ when he was alive, and they're probably the only ones who aren't beholden to any religious dogma whatsoever. Remember originally that religion of any kind was seen as primitive, especially among the SM. The old legions from the heresy era would have a fit if they saw how superstitious their successors had become. The 13th company is old enough to belong to this class, and have broken no oaths - they have been on the same mission for millennia.
I think the SW get hated on by the =][= because they are "heretical" for holding onto the original legion's values, and aren't completely indoctrinated with the cult of the emp.

**The Thousandth Son**

You know what, I concede, yup. There's no way either of us will win this debate, they're both cool in their own way, lt's just lavee it at that.

**Black Blow Fly**

At the back of the SW codex is a circular chart for the separate companies. The slot for the 13th company is blank and specifically states this spot is held for those the broke their oaths of fealty. It's right there in black and white. While you might not like it you can't deny it.

G

**Lint**

I was going by the novels, so there's apparently differences in the descriptions. The books have the 13th as the company that followed the 1k's into the eye to honor an oath sworn to Russ or some such. In 40k Ragnar meets them in the eye while retrieving the spear, and that's the story I got my info from. So, yes black and white, but more like BLibrary vs. GW.

Seriously though, does anybody even know what flies as official cannon nowadays?

**Arctik_Firangi**

Official... cannon?

**Lint**

^ smartypants ^ Was going to edit and fix my spelling, but screw it.
official.... dogma?
official.... story?
official.... Jervis will do what he wants anyways, even if it means wrecking your sweet chaos cult army, dolla dolla bill ya'll.

Ok, I'm done.

(edited for spelling, hah!)

**Reaper6**

Lint wrote:Seriously though, does anybody even know what flies as official cannon nowadays?

To my understanding, and I'm open to correction by anyone who has been around this hobby as long as me ( Played Game 1 on RT release day at GW Southampton) canon can be described thus :

Any material published in, or directly referred to by, a GAMING document by the holders of the copyright on the intellectual material (GW), that has not been superceded or updated in a subsequent GAMING document by said holders of the copyright either directly or by reference.

As an example. 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines refers to a Crusade ruling, indicating that a SM force doesn't have to consist of choices from the same Chapter. An Ultramarines player could conceivable field an Ultramarines army AND, for example, a Spacewolf Grey Hunter pack.

Subsequent updates to the Space Marine codex, and Codex Space Wolves, as well as the various editions of te rulebook, including 5th Ed, have not debunked, overwritten or replaced this ruling, so it could still be considered canon.

By the same process, prior to the release of the 5th edition rulebook, the events on Tarsis Ultra described in the Ultramarines Omnibus would have been NON canon. However, in the timeline pages, specifically p129, the entry for date 509997.M41 directly refers to this event, making it official canon. Further, the novel AND timeline entry also refer to the joint forces deployment of Ultramarines 4th Company and a unit from the Mortifactors Chapter, further ratifying the status of the old Crusade rule as usable by players.

Hope that clears things up for ya.

As for Russ, I'm still waiting to see a reference to the fluff source stating his armour was found in a Khornate shrine, so I anyone can cite the source I'd appreciate it.

**Lint**

So what you're saying is that I'm right, everybody else just needs to catch up?

**Reaper6**

Lint wrote:So what you're saying is that I'm right, everybody else just needs to catch up?

Not exactly.

1) Rules remain canon unless debunked or overwritten by succeeding rules publications.
2) Novels become canon only when a rules publication directly refer to them, and then only in terms of specific incidents in, or where that element of, the story varifies an existing rule subject to item 1

BTW, still waiting for someone to cite the source of the "armour found in Khornate Shrine" fluff. Anyone ?

**Black Blow Fly**

The story regarding Russ' armor left at a Khornate temple is one of those that you see floating around on the Internet from time to time. There are other such stories such as Cypher the Fallen Angel. There is a lot things mentioned in canonical fluff that is shaded by the propaganda from whichever side is spinning it. For example the sensei who are unknowing children of the Emperor... a cult led by one was attacked by the Inquisition, who claimed later that the cult was nothing more than a Tzneetchian based organization operating under the guise of a cult. People in general have a tendency to sweep under the rug any issues that might tarnish their reputation.

If the Space Wolf primarch's armor was indeed found left behind at a Khornate temple it does necessarily mean that Russ turned traitor. There are many possible explanations.

A quick Google search will help to shed more light on this subject.

G

**Black Blow Fly**

Apparently it appeared in an old White Dwarf.

G

**sonofruss**

Russ is roaming around the eye with his brother primarchs kicking

and not even bothering to take names. The 13th company are on a quest for Russ and have returned and were never dissloyal to Russ or the allfather and any fallen wolves need to die

**Sternguard_rock**

one word nope

**perplexiti**

I think that story was in either the 2nd ed space wolves codex or the space wolf index astartes. I don't have them with me (at work). IIRC it was in a story about Bjorn the fell handed, who can remember both Russ and the emperor. It was one of the early great hunts that the wolves do from time to time, can't remember which one though.