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So, say I want to use Pedro and Vulkan in the same Space Marine list. I know that I have to pick a tactic (Stubborn + Hold the Line vs. Bonus weapons) but Pedro's profile includes Hold the Line as a separate rule independent of Chapter Tactics that states: "If your army includes Pedro, your Sternguard Veteran squads are scoring units." So in short, my question is if I were to include both Chapter Masters and chose Vulkan's tactic option, would my Sternguard vets still be scoring (I know I would lose stubborn)?

No, because this special rule is granted to sternguard units as part of Pedro's Chapter Tactics rule, the rule only works in conjunction with his Chapter Tactics being used, despite it looking otherwhise at first glance.

It looks different unless you read Pedro's Chapter Tactics from beginning to end. You can exchange Combat Tactics for Stubborn AND Hold The Line.

It says in codex space marines at the end of all the char chapter tactics special rule you must choose which will apply so you can have 2 chars but use only 1 chapter tactics at a time.

Not to necro or anything, but this has just come up as I was making a new list featuring Vulkan and Pedro. I don't see why Hold the Line!, as it says that when an army includes Pedro and is on a seperate line, would not work in conjunction with Vulkan's Chapter Tactics. Obviously, I would not get Stubborn, but Hold the Line! is another rule entirely under his entry. Seems like a touchy issue about wording and placement.

Anyone have an official word on this?

While you could certainly make a RAW argument that the 'Hold The Line' entry is a separate rule and so applies independantly of Chapter Tactics, since it's a completely separate entry and complete in its own right, I can't help thinking it's just a bit of dodgy layout work.

After all, if Hold the Line is intended to work as a standalone rule whether Chapter Tactics is in play or not, there would be absolutely no point in having the Chapter Tactics rule confer Hold the Line. It's already there through the separate Hold the Line rule.

So to my mind, we're supposed to read the Hold the Line rule as being in conjunction with Chapter Tactics, rather than as a standalone rule.

Hold the line! is not a "seperate" ability as such. Stay with me here!

Pedros Chapter Tactics says;

"If you include Pedro Kantor then all units in your army exchange the Combat Tactics special rule for the Stubborn universal special rule (1)and(1) your Sternguard Veteran squads gain the Hold the Line! special rule (2)detailed below(2).

(1) shows us that Hold the Line! is very much part of the exchange for Combat Tactics and (2) tells us that the the reason why Hold the Line! has a separate entry.

When including Pedro and another character with Chapter Tactics, Hold the Line! is indeed not conferred to Sternguards when choosing to use the other characters Chapter Tactics.
Pedros Inspiring Presence will of course be retained as it is not dependent on the use of his Chapter Tactics.

Hold the line is a separate ability.

However, who has this special rule? No-one. Unless you're using Pedro's CT in which case Sternguard squads gain Stubborn and Hold the Line.

Hold the Line still exists and functions without Pedro's CT, it's just that no squads have it.

ETA, if Hold the Line had been written "Squads with this special rule count as scoring units", then it would have been perfectly clear. It is written in a rather ambiguous way.

Hence the reason why I put the word; Seperate, in qoutationmarks and asked people to "stay with me". I even included the condition "as such".
My reference to Inspiring Presence also helped make it clear what I meant by seperate entry.

We seem to agree. You just didn't like the way I worded it.

I agree completely, I was just offering an alternative way of explaining it.

I just wish GW hadn't put it into a seperate entry below Chapter Tactics. As it stands, it is not hard to read it as I did. As long as Pedro is in the army, Sternguard are scoring. That is not how it works, though, but its not hard to get confused with their set-up. That is GW for you, though.

Scott-S6 wrote:I agree completely, I was just offering an alternative way of explaining it.

Just my two cent (and first post) but under Kantor army entry Hold the Line! is NOT listed under his special rules. The wording for Hold The Line in his fluff entry is ambiguous by itself and should have clearly referenced Chapter Tactics.

Just my two cent (and first post) but under Kantor army entry Hold the Line! is NOT listed under his special rules. The wording for Hold The Line in his fluff entry is ambiguous by itself and should have clearly referenced Chapter Tactics. I too had to read and reread it a time or two myself.

double D'oh for the doublepost. somehow clicked the submit while typing.

Welcome to Dakka.

While you are right that "Hold the Line" is not in the Army list, it does not need to be, because as stated is in his unit entry, it is part of his Chapter Tactics, so there is no ambiguity at all.

"If you include Pedro Kantor then your Sternguard Veteran squads gain the Hold the Line! special rule detailed below. "

And...

"If you include Pedro Kantor then all units in your army exchange the Combat Tactics special rule for the Stubborn universal special rule."