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Yep, Yet another how would you update the Tau thread.

I 've been thinking on what would be the easiest way to update the Tau. I mean aside from fixing the wargear issues created by 5th ed or already inherent in the codex. And no kill 'em off or just don't write a new one jokes, please.

I'm gonna start off with the one area I feel is the most promising for improvement, most likely to occur, and imho most Tau-like.

And , yes I've said this before, the most likely area to me is the drones:


I think switching gundrones from fast attack to troops would go a long way towards updating the Tau. Also, make them maybe stubborn or fearless(Not fully in love with this idea). The devilfish drones would become a part of the purchasing troop and embark/disembark at the same time unless space is used for a secondary weapons system.
This would definitely add a new level and dimension to the Pirahnas and,also, fix the KP issue. The big tanks would no longer have them as an option unless the skyray recieves transport capability or possibly the about to be mentioned flamre drone.

Flamer and fusion drones. Make drones the upgrade items for troops and some squads.

And this last one is just because I hate the execution on the sniper drones. Get rid of them. Take the squad apart and remix them into some kind a usefull. Put the drone controllers(Now just networked markers&shield generators for the squad) into a team with 6 pathfinder rail rifles and make them the retinue for the Ethereal. Then take the drones and put them with a Stealth suit team configured something like Max 3 suits and 6 drones. Make them a heavy Support or fast attack.


This is where I'd start. Tell me what you think about these ideas or about where you would start.


Edited for skipped sentence

No comments?

Besides a few wargear and kill point issues, I don't see how any of those suggestions would "fix" the Tau. In my experience they aren't that bad off, and improving their already by far superior anti-armor capabilities just seems like power-playing to me. As far as Drones as troops, I say; "big fat calliwack no!"

I didn't say fix. I said update.

As far as power playing, please to explain. The only new thing I suggested was the Flamer & Fusion drones. Everything else is just reorganizing to more closely follow Tau Doctrine of mobile ranged combat. The only possible exception would be being able to take upgrade drones in the infantry squads. As long as the points reflect the neccessary balancing needed, whats the prob.

Aside from that, any comments or suggestions.

I'm sure GW will allow for that in the next Tau Codex, but only if you take the sentient Drone Special Character, J'hne F'ive, first.

BYE

LOL, Thanks H.M.B.C.. Do you know if he is still alive?

accidental post

focusedfire wrote:Yep, Yet another how would you update the Tau thread.

I 've been thinking on what would be the easiest way to update the Tau. I mean aside from fixing the wargear issues created by 5th ed or already inherent in the codex. And no kill 'em off or just don't write a new one jokes, please.

I'm gonna start off with the one area I feel is the most promising for improvement, most likely to occur, and imho most Tau-like.

And , yes I've said this before, the most likely area to me is the drones:


I think switching gundrones from fast attack to troops would go a long way towards updating the Tau. Also, make them maybe stubborn or fearless(Not fully in love with this idea). The devilfish drones would become a part of the purchasing troop and embark/disembark at the same time unless space is used for a secondary weapons system.
This would definitely add a new level and dimension to the Pirahnas and,also, fix the KP issue. The big tanks would no longer have them as an option unless the skyray recieves transport capability or possibly the about to be mentioned flamre drone.

Flamer and fusion drones. Make drones the upgrade items for troops and some squads.

And this last one is just because I hate the execution on the sniper drones. Get rid of them. Take the squad apart and remix them into some kind a usefull. Put the drone controllers(Now just networked markers&shield generators for the squad) into a team with 6 pathfinder rail rifles and make them the retinue for the Ethereal. Then take the drones and put them with a Stealth suit team configured something like Max 3 suits and 6 drones. Make them a heavy Support or fast attack.


This is where I'd start. Tell me what you think about these ideas or about where you would start.


Edited for skipped sentence

I think it would be cool if gun drones could get more weapons, and it would also be awesome if you could upgrade your FW unit with different kinds of drones. (Marker Drones would be handy) Also, flamer drones would be fun to use against swarm armies, I find that sometimes as Tau that you can have heavy fire, but not enough of it sometimes to take out all the little things.

1: wargear issues need sorting.
2: KP issues need sorting.


those 2 are needed.
but:

3: have some form of weapon upgrade (special or heavy) for the basic warriors, maybe a heavy drone with them?
or even a platform like eldar.

We've been discussing this in detail on the how would you fix the tau thread.

I started this thread when that one looked as if it was dying off and I wanted to focus down to just one area and truly discuss how this could be maximized without fanboy or OTT dream/wish-listing.

Now that we're getting a look at how crazy good the new guard might be, the original wish-lists seem almost under-powered.

If you are truly interested in continuing this exploration then I'll be happy to discuss our thoughts and see what develops.

I have said it before and I will say it again up the Tau's BS by 1 and I would be happy

I like the increased basic BS but even then there is going to have to be an increase in volume of firepower just to keep up with what is emerging in 5th ed. There is also the inevitable need for newer/better that will have to be satisfied.

Every army has its theme. The IG is Tanks and lots of ordinance. I feel the Tau's identifying theme is the Crisis & drones.

My opinion is wait for 6th edition. 5th edition scenarios and troops only controlling objectives have made the Tau a tough army to win. They truly remind of of orks with their previous codex.... one turn too slow... almost there but just not quite. The orks always seemed to hit their assault one turn too slow. The Tau in 5th ed seem to get engaged one turn too soon.

2 out of 3 scenarios are objective based. 2 out of 3 deployments are less than 24" apart. These are both killers for non-close combat troop types whose one and only redeeming feature is the best hand weapon in the game.

You are now in an environment with an average of 18" separation, the RUN rule, fleeting terminators, cover saves for almost everything on the board and generally reducing cost for every new codex out there. The new CC morale rules also overemphasize the power CC units. There is almost no ability to "pillow" except with fearless units and those are generally too costly to use that way. In the old days, you could throw an expendable kroot unit and tie the enemy up based on your numbers... Now days, every Tau unit is a speed bump at best in CC and that just means I can pick one unit to die so that the next can rapid fire.

To make them useful and not a marine tactical squad (special weapons, etc.) and knowing GW likes to sell figs, my prediction would be:

Cost base down to 6 to 8 (depending on who writes the codex), free defensive grenades. Perhaps free markerlight and bonding knife for the squad leader. Don't look for a miracle until fire-based morale rolls are somewhat equivalent to post-CC morale rolls.

I'm still winning in 5th ed, just not as often. I'm gonna stick with the Tau in hopes that over time the currently adverse conditions will help to improve my skills. Make me a bit sharper as it were. If it gets a little boring then I'll play my Eldar for a while but will eventually always return to the Tau.

"In the old days, you could throw an expendable kroot unit and tie the enemy up based on your numbers... Now days, every Tau unit is a speed bump at best in CC..."

That's why I think some light walkers with no combat skill would be a good addition for Tau. 10 or 11 armor would let them tie up assaulting infantry really well, but they'd still be a Tau unit so it's not like they'd be good at finishing things off.

MythicalMothman wrote:"In the old days, you could throw an expendable kroot unit and tie the enemy up based on your numbers... Now days, every Tau unit is a speed bump at best in CC..."

That's why I think some light walkers with no combat skill would be a good addition for Tau. 10 or 11 armor would let them tie up assaulting infantry really well, but they'd still be a Tau unit so it's not like they'd be good at finishing things off.

Problem with this is that if actually done they'll use it to replace the Broadsides and none of us wants that. I really feel that the drones and allied auxillaries is the theme for the Tau. When you bring in walkers there is no logical reason to keep the broadsides. If you think this would be good just remember that a wounded broadside can still fire. Walker squadrons in comparison don't get to fire as much an aren't really any more durable unless they have an AV of 12.

I know walkers look cool but in reality they aren't that functional. And yes, I know that this is just a fantasy game. It's just that the Tau reflect what we consider in reality as the current pinnacle of modern warfare and tactics. Also, just from a cenematic thought process, imagine how a walker moves through terrain. I bet that image includes the walker bashing its way through the entangling branches or intervening rubble walls. This strikes me as being about as un-Tau like as you can get. I love them for some other armies just not the Tau. I'm not really trying to rain on your idea, I just think it needs a concept shift.

Now replace the walkers with Drone-naughts and it starts to have the right feel. You know, either an armor save 2+ drone or a little drone skimmer squadron with AV10. The reason why I'm so focused on the drones is that when you look back at the very first Tau concepts of the drones it becomes clear that the drones were the Tau loophole to attrition warfare. From concept, to first codex, then to the current codex the drones intended use was to bolster the relatively small numbers (compared to other races) of Fire warriors and are supposed to be used for missions to risky for the fire warriors.

This is just a quick idea, tell me what you'd change or what different approach would you take.

I don't see how walkers replace broadsides at all - they wouldn't have the same weapons or role at all. The walkers could easily be an alien ally's unit (Demiurg or whatever) if you don't think the Tau would build walkers themselves.

I agree that drones are pretty neat and basically uniquely Tau, but that doesn't mean every new unit you could come up with would have to be a drone.

Whatever the next Tau Codex brings, I hope they focus more on the Hunter aspect of Fire Warriors. In the fluff, they are Hunters. In the game, it feels like they're prey. I don't want them to have marine stats, the stats are fine, just get the army to work more as a hunter than a static-gun with flying robots. I'm not sure how that can be accomplished, but it's a nice dream.

@ dietrich-I think Tau jetbikes or the Tetra skimmers are going to play a role in granting your request.

@ Mothman, I'm not saying every new unit. I'm pushing for more of a Tau feel and the average walker/dread just doesn't give that feeling IMHO. Now a nasty slow skimmer/jetbike like the necron Tomb Spyder or Dark Eldar Talos seems more fitting even if its comming from an alien ally.


edited for unit correction

My guess is that the Piranha gets a boost in the next edition.

The Tau currently have a lot of little bugs in the army list that wouldn't be too hard to work out (like KPs for Devilfish drones).

I see Tau as being the 'mobile firepower' army. Eldar to me are the 'fast firepower' army with some deadly elite troops. So, I'd like to see Tau, in general, get more mobility in the list. But, if that isn't in a troops selection, does it matter?

I also wouldn't be shocked if they help fill the troop slot with changing the FOC for HQs. Commanders aren't mandatory, but if you take one, you can take 1 crisis suit team as a troop choice. Farsight maybe lets you take 2. etc.

I think they'll rework a lot of the unique stuff for Tau. Tau break some of the base mechanics with Target Locks and Markerlights (shoot multiple targets, boost to BS, etc.). MLs would certainly stay, but I think their abilities will change.

@ dietrich- I completly agree with your assesment. I don't know if the'll give us the HQ as troop thing but its a fun idea to play with.

I do see the Tau getting a stealth commander and a pathfinder unit to help with dawn of war scenarios.

As to markerlights, I still see there being a counter system but the entire army will benefit as opposed to just one unit. This will of course be balanced by limits to effect( can boost BS by only 1pt , can lower cover by only 2pts, any squad benefits from the expended counters,Seekers stay the same leadership stays the same.

Thats just a quick idea, but yeah the markers need a rework.

Later

I think that the BS of all the units need to be re-worked. Tau are supposed to be amazing shots, and some of their troops are barely better than orks, which is really saying something.

BS isn't the problem. Tau are equivalent to trained human infantry, less than elite imperium forces, and better than untrained humans and orks.

Making Tau BS 4 is a 'feel good' fix. It makes them more accurate, but doesn't fix any of the other problems that tau experience. A unit of 12 FWs gets 2 more hits, 4 if within 12 inches. That sounds like a big deal, but it isn't.

Plus, Tau have MLs, they don't need BS 4.

I dont see fusion or flamer drones. The whole fluff of the tau is they don't have heavy weapons in their squads and that is replaced by markerlight/seeker missile, or crisis suits. Fusion or flamer drones just turn firewarriors into storm guardians.

Drones as troops...I dont see a not-so-smart AI holding objectives. Tau are just goign to get cheaper troops or a higher BS in the next edition, and a few new units with little change to existing units other than points cost tweaks.

Actually, That tired old line about not having integral fire support died in the current codex with the rail rifle upgrade for pathfinders.

IMHO, I think special weapon drones fills a niche where help is much needed while retaing the overall flavor of the Tau. It would also be closer to IG than Eldar STORM Gaurdians due to the lack of cc weapons. This isn't putting plas,missles, or other heavy stuff in the squads but rather a little extra punch that is more fragile than the IG set-up.

As to the rest? Well my experience with the Tau and the material I have on them is what leads me in this direction and line of thought. I have the White Dwarfs from when they were first introduced and still have my copy of the first codex.
When you read from the beginning it becomes clear that the drones were to be the expendable units but count as members of Tau society.

Elevating them to a troop choice and auto attaching devifish drones to the squad that bought it fixes the Tau KP problem. It also adds needed mobility within the basic troop section without making them HTH.

I really think the Tau are going to get more than cheaper troops or higher bs in the next 'dex. Current pattern is shaping up to be that last years wishlist might be a Tame version of what will come.

I'm guessing that it will be 2-3 new units with one new alien ally, 5 existing units being thoughly reworked and reformed into new/better, Markerlights will get a thourough rework, weapons will get strength boosts or higher rates of fire, a non-crisis elite, wargear reworked with lots of stuff becoming standard, reworked ethereals, and a new commander unit.
Please remember this is just a guess.

edited for spelling

Here's another direction in which they could take drones that might be interesting:

- Leave them in fast attack.
- Make them fearless.
- Make any unit containing only drones worth 0 KP.
- Adjust point values if needed (not sure about this).

I'm not saying this would single-handedly update the Tau codex, but I think it would make drones more interesting. First of all, it sorts out the KP issues for Devilfish and Piranhas. Second, it gives the Tau some extremely expendable, fairly mobile units for harassment or stalling CC units, which seems like a "realistic" role for drones as well as being something that Tau armies might find useful in this edition.

Not a bad idea, actually.

It makes them fit in more with their expendable but ultimately unreliable nature.

About the BS4 opinion

This might seem out of place but the fluff i have read tau have never been amazing shots, something to do with a biological disadvantage at judging distance hence why they use tech to make up for it.

Fluff is fluff. The fluff is that Tau eyes cannot refocus as quickly as human. This makes more difference at close range rather than long range since the further away an object is, the less refocussing it takes to get it in focus.

This would account for the Tau preference for distance weapons, which in turn should make them better shots since they spend more time practicing shooting.

Anyway, fluff is just a convenient excuse for making the stats be the value needed for the game. The fluff can say that technology makes Tau BS4 -- targetting matrix, etc.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm sure GW will allow for that in the next Tau Codex, but only if you take the sentient Drone Special Character, J'hne F'ive, first.

BYE

Nice reference there HBMC