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I have a guard army and want to use Ogryn. However the tactical side of me says that a Grey Knights squad would be far superior. I run a mix of mech and gun line. I will paint one of each and chose based on time spent vs final product. However, as I think about it, actual game play is pretty important. I know the knights are better but how much better is the question. Any thoughts?

Tactics and stats for both is what I am looking for. So how would you use them and why?

Six of each is about the same price. Grey Knights have a better gun, and are Fearless with their extra rules. Ogryns are better against cover, with Frag Grenades but Grey Knights otherwise have the edge in close combat. Grey Knights have weapon options. Ogryn have 3 Wounds and a 5+, Grey Knights have a 3+.

Conclusion: Don't take Ogryn.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Guard_Doctrines_-_The_Bad%2C_the_Worse%2C_and_the_Mandatory#Ogryn

Rough Riders are a third choice to consider. Or even Junior Command Squads with Flamers.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Guard_Doctrines_-_The_Bad%2C_the_Worse%2C_and_the_Mandatory#Rough_Rider_Squadron

Otherwise just take whichever you like from a modelling/ painting perspective.

Power Armoured Grey Knights generally aren't worth their points, especially as an auxilliary army. Either go for broke and take Terminators, or don't take GKs as allies. Terminators get power weapons, an extra attack on the charge(they don't benefit from true grit), 2+/5++, and can fire psycannons at their full potential as assault weapons.

As far as mathhammer is concerned,

AP6/ AP-: Ogryn
AP5: Same, other than Grey Knight rules.
AP4: Grey Knight
S6/7 AP2, weak AP3: Ogryn
S8+: Grey Knight

So Ogryn are an OK squad but I think Grey Knights have the edge given Fearless, The Shrouding and the fact they can shoot their Storm Bolters effective 6+24".

Ogryn do get the Frag Grenades, although you can give the Justicar a Frag Grenade as well. Not to mention Incinerators.

The Shrouding is almost useless. Just saying. Still, storm bolters are some fun guns, that's for sure. And unless you're facing hordes or nob bikers, you're better off using psycannons(however, against nob bikers, incinerators are great because they negate every save that they get other then FNP).

Well as I am playing guard only a few things get to me. They usually rip me apart a bit when they get there. Are both in your opionon capable of taking out 3 marines? Probably a power weapon or fist tossed in there. That is usually all that gets to me after my speed bump unit gets owned. Termies are too expensive for the build I am going for. All I have room for is about 125 to 150pts to spend. So if not any other suggestions to get MAX out of that point range? Sisters are out of the question as the guy I wanna beat runs a sisters army. So I don't wanna double up.

Heavy- filled
FA- 2 hellhounds
el-ratlings, stormtroopers
Tr- armored fist and a full platoon
Hq- sentinels , command squad

Thoughts...Thanks.

Definitely take the GKs. By the time your enemy gets to you your storm bolters will have taken out a few minis and the NFW kick ass in HtH.
If you can make room for termies but otherwise definitely go for the GKs.

Heck no, One squad of 6 rough riders, led by a vet and lances. 77 points of pure kick tail that will obliterate any squad they charge other than 20+ strong orks. str5 int5 power weapons with a 19-24 inch threat range are a thing of beauty.

Ok ya got a point on the RR. My problem with them is not their rules but the models. My very senses are offended seeing guys riding horses in the year 40k. I just hate the concept even if it is justifiable. It bothers me. I have been looking for ideas to make them look cool by conversations but nothing has come to mind yet. Ideas?

A lot of people are snapping up the new scout marine bikes and converting those.

Neither Ogryn nor Grey Knights, terminators or PAGK, function well in Guard armies. They both suck up huge amounts of points that you could have used to invest in more tanks or men while still being fragile to enemy counterfire. At the end of the day GKs are simply T4 1 wound models with a 3+ save. I'd much rather have another platoon of guys with meltaguns or rough riders for the counter charge.

Sourclams- I agree with you completely. However I am doing a paint and play and am trying to have as many guard units as possible for my army. When the new dex comes out it will be difficult to know what will be good. I am a slow painter so having a point sink unit or two helps me finish in time. So my position is a little different then your normal guard player because of that. That being said I like the Ogryn models and the Grey Knights models. Plus I kill 95 percent of what gets to my line. That last little bit is what causes me problems. So I am looking for a unit to demoralize my opponents by winning an assault when he finally gets there. My stormtroopers currently have the job of shooting 2 meltas at them and then charging to kill the last guy with the Sgt's power weapon. It works ok but usually one other small squad gets there as well. That is why I asked the question and am looking for a counter unit. Hope that helps clear things up a bit.

I still stand by Grey Knight Terminators if you take GKs at all. Similar to PAGKs, GKT will be fine at shooting until the enemy gets close, but when it comes time to assault, they'll do FAR more damage in close combat, thanks to their NFW being power weapons, and last a lot longer thanks to a 2+/5++ save. Not only that, but termies have access to psychic powers and a thunder hammer. Holocaust is a real nice psychic power(I1 S5 blast template that you can use in the assault phase, in addition to your normal attacks. It's a lot of hurt).

Would love Grey knight termies. Problem is I cannot afford them in the army at present. I have 125pts to spend for counter assault, can push it to 150 but only just. 125 is more doable. Puts the termies out of range. Rough riders are fine but have yet to see a good way, that I am capable of anyway, to model them with out horses. This has been the root of my problem. It appears there is no good answer to my question. At least with out changing my army as it stands at present.

I would love to hear more suggestions. However I realize there may not be a good answer. Luckly I like the possible choices I have. Just not married to any of them yet.

Sha1emade wrote:Would love Grey knight termies. Problem is I cannot afford them in the army at present. I have 125pts to spend for counter assault, can push it to 150 but only just. 125 is more doable. Puts the termies out of range. Rough riders are fine but have yet to see a good way, that I am capable of anyway, to model them with out horses. This has been the root of my problem. It appears there is no good answer to my question. At least with out changing my army as it stands at present.

I would love to hear more suggestions. However I realize there may not be a good answer. Luckly I like the possible choices I have. Just not married to any of them yet.

You can buy the Scout Bike model and stick Cadian torsos/heads onto them. Likewise you can buy Empire Pistoliers from WHFB and do the same. High Elf spearmen from WHFB can provide great lance arms, or you can simply get creative with toothpicks. I personally went with the Empire Pistoliers because I wanted horses, but honestly Cadian torsos/heads/arms on any sort of leg will look pretty convincing.

Ahh the butt uglines of GW's RR models the best way they had to keep IG from counterassaulting

Has no one realized that you can't take a squad of GK with IG. The GK can take iG units but they must reach some specifics. Also the only things you can take from the IG in a deamonhunters army is regular troops fast attack and 1 heavy support however that does not mean all unit types are availbe (cant take a hellhound). (Page 30-31 Deamonhunters codex.) As far as I know Deamonhunters and Witchhunters are the only ones who can take allies it doesnt work the other way around. I still see your army as playable but it would need some reworking b/c you would need a Deamonhunters HQ.

Emrab wrote:Has no one realized that you can't take a squad of GK with IG. The GK can take iG units but they must reach some specifics. Also the only things you can take from the IG in a deamonhunters army is regular troops fast attack and 1 heavy support however that does not mean all unit types are availbe (cant take a hellhound). (Page 30-31 Deamonhunters codex.) As far as I know Deamonhunters and Witchhunters are the only ones who can take allies it doesnt work the other way around. I still see your army as playable but it would need some reworking b/c you would need a Deamonhunters HQ.

This is completely incorrect read your codex allies rules.

there are rules for inducted IG, Allied space marines and ALSO rules for allying DH/WH to other armies.

Ok My bad I misread the box on page 21. Thus why I thought that you must take a DH HQ if you were going to use them. I got confused with "When using unites in the manner you MUST fulfill all compulsory unit choices on the force organsisation char from the DH list."