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--DISCLAMIER: This is mostly intended for tournament based armies--

I used to play WFB and it was almost expected that you would take a low level caster or 2 so that you could have some dispel scrolls.

So would the Epistolary be the 40k version of the "required" dispel scroll caddy in WFB.

You get as many chances to negate psychic powers (within 24" of course) as the enemy tries to use---read: counter to the double lash spam.

Also it seems a good counter to the ork warbiker spam--use null zone (to eliminate invulnerable saves) or the quickening (to give that force weapon initiative 10) as first power-then force weapon as 2nd power to kill warboss. The terminator armor and SS allows some serious protection (+3 inv) for the librarian.

Whether or not you deepstrike or put em in a landraider is up to you. I think he would definately need to be accompanied by a sqaud of termies.

So @ 190 pts it's expensive but seems fairly flexible.

I'm not sure how many creatures out there are immune to instant death at the moment either....

GG

190 points is far too much. 200 points buys you 2 librarians who can provide null zone and psychic hoods.

If you want a close combat monster with a psychic hood then opt for a Grey Knight Grandmaster instead.

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote:190 points is far too much. 200 points buys you 2 librarians who can provide null zone and psychic hoods.

If you want a close combat monster with a psychic hood then opt for a Grey Knight Grandmaster instead.

This is true unless you want gate as well, but if you're already looking at a 200 point libby, you may as well get tigurius, not as good at CC, but makes up for it with the crazy psychic abilities

But for your needs, Mr. Op, I'd go with Mr. Daddy

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote:190 points is far too much. 200 points buys you 2 librarians who can provide null zone and psychic hoods.

If you want a close combat monster with a psychic hood then opt for a Grey Knight Grandmaster instead.

Refresh my memory on the grandmaster stats?

Thanks,

GG

He has a strength 6 force weapon* and access to a DH psychic hood, which has unlimited range.

*some would argue that his force weapon overrides "immune to instant death"

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote:
*some would argue that his force weapon overrides "immune to instant death"

Why? is that?

IRRC the rules for his force weapon use different language than that of other force weapons. I don't think the phrase "instant death" is used at all. I can't find my DH codex, so hopefully someone else can elaborate.

What combos do you really wanna do, that wouldnt be a one-trick pony? The only think I can think is a gating epi-termied libby, with either a normal termie squad or a sternguard squad.. Using the gate & (either) vortex of doom or one of the other shooty ones.

Razerous wrote:What combos do you really wanna do, that wouldnt be a one-trick pony? The only think I can think is a gating epi-termied libby, with either a normal termie squad or a sternguard squad.. Using the gate & (either) vortex of doom or one of the other shooty ones.

I was thinking the combo of the psychic hood + force weapon + termyarmor and SS (to give survivability) would make it a really good thing to have vs any army that uses psychic powers, I.E. Eldar and Chaos. But also have the punchyness to kill elite troops if combined with a terminator squad. Seems flexible and exactly what is needed to counter some of the lists, like Ork warbiker nob and double lash lists. Not sure if I agree that that would be a one trick pony. However I'm open to having my mind changed.

I'm going to have to look at my demonhunter codex when I get home. The grandamaster sounds plausible..but still need to check to see how they compare.

Thanks,
GG

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote:IRRC the rules for his force weapon use different language than that of other force weapons. I don't think the phrase "instant death" is used at all. I can't find my DH codex, so hopefully someone else can elaborate.

Yes, the DH Force weapon uses the old pre-Instant Death version of rules. It "kills outright" ( removes remaining wounds ) and does not refer Instant Death. This is perfecty legitimate since GW`s current stance is that Codex trumps rulebook unless given FAQ/Errata to the contrary. And so DH Grey Knights still have the ability to butcher Daemon Princes and other heretics that have Eternal Warrior.

Use search-fu and you should be able to locate at least one other thread where this same question was raised.

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote:IRRC the rules for his force weapon use different language than that of other force weapons. I don't think the phrase "instant death" is used at all. I can't find my DH codex, so hopefully someone else can elaborate.

"Instant Death" is defined in the BRB as "any wound caused by strength double to the model's toughness," and kills the model instantaneously regardless of number of wounds remaining. Force weapons, as defined in the BRB, count as causing "Instant Death," meaning that they count as causing a wound whose strength is double their toughness. Models immune to Instant Death are not instantly killed by attacks that have strength double their toughness, and thus by proxy are also immune to force weapons.

Grey Knight force weapons, however, are specifically defined within their codex (and do not refer to the BRB rules as the SM ones do). Their force weapons cause the model to "be slain outright, regardless of number of wounds remaining." This has *no* reference to Instant Death (and thus circumvents immunity to it), nor does it refer to strength double toughness (which would cause instant death, and trigger thus trigger the respective immunity).

GK force weapons therefore, according to RAW, circumvent ID rules, Eternal Warrior rules, and *ALL* other ID immunity rules. The only model not immune to it is the FW bloodthirster, who is able to take a save against ALL wounds that he takes, allowing him to make an invulnerable save against every wound cause by the force weapon.

I understand the argument against the rules, but it is purely a RAI argument, and until it's FAQ'ed the only way to gain immunity to GK FW's is to houserule it.

Also, I don't think that epistolary is a necessary upgrade. The number of times that you want to use GoI as well as another power is typically few and far between. However, the extra 40 points for terminator armour and a storm shield greatly increase the survivability of the librarian. Play a few rounds with one and you'll see just how fragile he is, especially since he can be picked out of combat and only has two wounds...

GoI & a shooting attack (with a shooty squad) Ooor somthing like quickening with a force weapon attacks are some of the few decent combos you'd ever wanna do but generally its a waste of time to get those two powers just to do that as its only usable in a limited fashion - hence why tiggy is alot more versitile & does the multiple casting job better for a mere 40 (from termie which is a must IMO) pts extra.

Termie armor is a must with a libby in a termie squad.. otherwise it prevents that unit from making sweeping advances so may be less oppertune.

@ Generalgrog : You will generally find that (unless hes a fast libby) you'll be needing to use your psychic hood long before you make it to CC (To counter those dooms/lash/fortunes etc) that happen early turns and the ability to counter & force weapon somthing on the same turn isnt worth the 40pts.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:GK force weapons therefore, according to RAW, circumvent ID rules, Eternal Warrior rules, and *ALL* other ID immunity rules. The only model not immune to it is the FW bloodthirster, who is able to take a save against ALL wounds that he takes, allowing him to make an invulnerable save against every wound cause by the force weapon.

(The latest rules for all FW Gargantuan creatures are found in Apocalypse, where wounds which would cause a model to be "slain outright" instead do d3 wounds. Such creatures are also immune to Instant Death, which only does 1 wound to them.)

Razerous wrote:
@ Generalgrog : You will generally find that (unless hes a fast libby) you'll be needing to use your psychic hood long before you make it to CC (To counter those dooms/lash/fortunes etc) that happen early turns and the ability to counter & force weapon somthing on the same turn isnt worth the 40pts.

Not sure that I agree with you there razerous...Using Null zone then charging would be sweet, or using the quickening to give initiative 10 then charging would be sweet.

I'm a bit confused about your psychic hood statement... as using a psychic hood has nothing to do with using my own psychic powers. Also was planning on potentially using the librarian with shrike, I think this would give fleet.

However I totally agree that this would be a gamble if you were going to deep strike.

GG

If you want Force Weapons for anti-nobs better to take Power Armour. Termie + Storm Shield + Vortex for a shooty libby. Otherwise best to take the extra attack, I think.

In two recent RTT's I took a Librarian w/ terminator armor, storm shield, null zone, gate.
He's my favorite Space Marine HQ.

@ Generalgrog ; Twas my (incorrect) assumption that using the hood was similiar to using a force weapon in that it require the use of a 'power' to use. Its not, my baaad!

Quickening is cool but only against beasties like a brood lord, slanesh type demons (i think), eldar etc.. and hes only him and wont do amazing amounts of damage. Null zone & a force weapon attack would be great buuut how about looking at a dual gating list (just an example of two libbies use) with one flavour of normal termies & one flavour of assault types. Null zone goes with the un-ss storm bolter wielding libby (with gate, as all the termies are relentless) with a gate & might (for str 6 & monolith dealings.. nay nay (living metal damn yoooou).. AV14 stuff). Would be about as expensive as tiggy, less no. of powers but generally more survivable & versitile (simply as thier are two of em, 4 powers)

MotA and a fore weapon attack would be worth the Epi-ability as str 4 (without might) isnt the best way to wound somthing.. Just hope he makes it to his init order. (I.e without quickening)

Im torn between a dual gating termie list OR getting 6 ironclads for my (5th ed) SM's...

Also, you can gate to a locator beacon, either on a pod or scout bikers, with no scatter. That could be a really nice combo with a few pod squads.

Take a 10 man termie squad with a libby with gate,

scout move a scout biker squad to a unit that needs dealing with on turn one and gate to it with no scatter (and thus no chance of losing a member of the squad) and unleash some serious kick ass.

or do the same with a drop pod, but gate to it on turn two. If you have multiple pods with beacons, you can deliver that big termie squad where ever they need to be no later than turn two, plus the firepower of the poding squads.

Is GoI considered Deep Striking? Not sure I read it was, just trying to figgure out how Ｏｎｅ would use a Locator Beacon with GoI. Let me know because this would be great!! - role for scout biker. Also the cost of a drop pod may be somewhat negated if this is feasible.

Doesn't null zone require the opposing to reroll all invulnerable saves? If so then this would be a boon to nob bikers.

G

Yes... hence why its a must (IMO) in a dual gating builds. Good against nobz (Ish), demons, other termies, IC's..

The shooty one gets Null & the choppy one gets MotA. Sorted..

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote:IRRC the rules for his force weapon use different language than that of other force weapons. I don't think the phrase "instant death" is used at all. I can't find my DH codex, so hopefully someone else can elaborate.

"Instant Death" is defined in the BRB as "any wound caused by strength double to the model's toughness," and kills the model instantaneously regardless of number of wounds remaining. Force weapons, as defined in the BRB, count as causing "Instant Death," meaning that they count as causing a wound whose strength is double their toughness. Models immune to Instant Death are not instantly killed by attacks that have strength double their toughness, and thus by proxy are also immune to force weapons.

Grey Knight force weapons, however, are specifically defined within their codex (and do not refer to the BRB rules as the SM ones do). Their force weapons cause the model to "be slain outright, regardless of number of wounds remaining." This has *no* reference to Instant Death (and thus circumvents immunity to it), nor does it refer to strength double toughness (which would cause instant death, and trigger thus trigger the respective immunity).

GK force weapons therefore, according to RAW, circumvent ID rules, Eternal Warrior rules, and *ALL* other ID immunity rules. The only model not immune to it is the FW bloodthirster, who is able to take a save against ALL wounds that he takes, allowing him to make an invulnerable save against every wound cause by the force weapon.

If this is true then the Grey Knights Assault cannon can only fire 3 shots. LOL. I think i opened up a can of worms

The Grey Knight just need to be redone. However until then I am going to bring my Grey Knight Grand Master to the Adepticon Gladiator event and Ard Boyz. Always a good way to tick people off.

I understand the argument against the rules, but it is purely a RAI argument, and until it's FAQ'ed the only way to gain immunity to GK FW's is to houserule it.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Doesn't null zone require the opposing to reroll all invulnerable saves? If so then this would be a boon to nob bikers.

G

The enemy re-rolls all their successful invul saves, not all their invul saves.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Doesn't null zone require the opposing to reroll all invulnerable saves? If so then this would be a boon to nob bikers.

G

Yeah, for Nobz with cybork body.
But the Nobz would possibly kill him at first sight in cc.

Not reroll all Inv saves, only the ones you make. So you have an additional chance to fail should you make the first one.

Right.

If a Nobz passes an 5+ save, 1/3 chance, he has to pass it again, 1/3 chance.
Thus the total chance is 1/9. Poor Nobz.

@Sneaky

Yes, Gate of infinity uses the deep strike rules, so locator beacons on pods or on scout bikers works, making that power so much better. It also means that you dont run the risk of losing any of your models as they don't scatter.

10 man termie squad, 2 heavy flamers, libby with avenger and gate.

That is some serious firepower with real mobility if you use the scout bikers.

Scout move your bikers in front of a squad that need to die,
turn one gate infront of squad, hose them. Turbo boost scout bikers to next squad.

Turn two, gate to bikers and repeat. As I read it, gate will pull you out of close combat too, just as the veil does. It keeps the squad super mobile.

I use a Libby in Term armor a lot against Chaos Demons.

I used him with a Venerable in cover nearby and a lot of Lascannon and Plascannon fire and wiped out a bunch of Bloodletters. since them our group (which is demon heavy) will only get near when they can get cover saves.

Crap, I just realized you wound't be able to use avenger as the libby would be surrounded by models. Scratch that and take vortex of doom instead...just pray you dont flub the psychic test!