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Made in us
Slippery Scout Biker



Wassertown

I'm curious about WW2 wargaming. I play 40k and LOtR, and i think i could probably drag my club into WW2 gaming. What exactly is it called? Are there a lot of players in the U.S.? Is the game system balanced? How would we get started?

Thanks!

Screamin' Banshees 23-9-2 5th Ed. 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







The most visible WW2 tabletop game is Flames of War, though there are free rulesets out
there that I'm not familiar with. Flames of War support varies by state, but they have a
great forum and a fantastic series of articles.

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Also, Flames of War was originally based off the 40k ruleset. While it's heavily modified in some places, I think if you play 40k, the concepts and turn sequence, etc. will be pretty easy to pick up.

Flames of War has varying popularity. It is a very good game system.

In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





If you play 40k you will really enjoy this...
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/WWW2alternaterules/

Based off 4th edition (with 5th on the way) 40k. And its free.
   
Made in us
Slippery Scout Biker



Wassertown

Any links for FoW? That looks like the best option.

Screamin' Banshees 23-9-2 5th Ed. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

www.flamesofwar.com Note that you have to sign up to the forums (community/forums) to actually see them.

There are some free army lists, called briefings if FoW (Hobby/Briefings) on the website.

Armies are built a little like 40k ones with HQ, Combat Platoons, Weapon Platoons and Support Platoons. For most battles you must take an HQ and Two Combat Platoons. The rest of your points can be spent as you like from the remaining options.

FoW is just about to get a starter set containing three Sherman Tanks, two StuGs and a mini (40k style) rulebook for £23 (Can't remember the US price, about $40-50 IIRC) at the end of this month. So you've picked a good time to start.

If you and your friends start at the same time you could swap models from the starter sets to increase the size of your forces.

Spain in Flames: Flames of War (Spanish Civil War 1936-39) Flames of War: Czechs and Slovaks (WWI & WWII) Sheffield & Rotherham Wargames Club

"I'm cancelling you, I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf." - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show
 
   
Made in us
Slippery Scout Biker



Wassertown

Thanks, that looks good.

Screamin' Banshees 23-9-2 5th Ed. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I tried to play FOW... bought enough stuff for a large Eastern Front German Recon army...

Played it for 6 months then sold it.

If you dig around, you will find better games.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

That's the beauty of 15mm WWII, there will always be a ruleset that you can use.

Spain in Flames: Flames of War (Spanish Civil War 1936-39) Flames of War: Czechs and Slovaks (WWI & WWII) Sheffield & Rotherham Wargames Club

"I'm cancelling you, I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf." - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show
 
   
Made in us
Slippery Scout Biker



Wassertown

Why did you quit?

Screamin' Banshees 23-9-2 5th Ed. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I found much better rules then the FOW ruleset. Havent tried FOW since the new edition came out, what... a year or two ago. It might be better, but try as I might I just didnt like the game mechanics. Plus I love 28mm scale over 15mm.

The minis are nice I will give you that. And lots of people do seem to enjoy FOW, but I felt the game had kind of a steep learning curve, and I hated painting so many small guys. Played it for 6ish months until my army was winning 3 out of 4 games and decided to drop it and move on.

These days Im playing a few other rulesets, like NUTZ! or Disposable Heros, or the WW2 40k that I linked above. ( Im currently on the side converting it over to 5th Edition rules)

All of these rules in my opinion are better the FOW because they are far less complex, and are more geared for a "Beer and Pretzels" style of gameplay.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/25 00:55:13


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





I personally love FoW and didn't think it was too complex but everyone has their own preferences. I did find it kind of funny though jp400 that you would say it's to complex when most of the hard core historical wargaming sites tend to pan FoW for it's "Beer and Pretzels" play, calling it "wargamming light". Just shows that there's no such thing as the perfect game and everyone wants something different.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Nox,
I couldnt agree more. No game is perfect and someone will always not like it. I did have fun with it, but it grew old quick.

To me it felt like I was playing some kind of Epic 40k. (which I never really loved in the first place)

Plus everyone around here only want to play Larger battles, so it would eat up most the day just playing one game. This at times isnt a bad thing, but tends to get very old by hour 5+ lol.



   
Made in de
[DCM]
The Last Czarnian






The Northwest Territory

Personally, I think Flames of War is an excellent historical ruleset. The units are all well-balanced for the most part, in terms of points, and you can always play scenario games if points-based battles aren't your thing.

The game is pretty straightforward, and as others have said, if you know how to play 40k, you should adjust to Flames of War pretty easily. That said, FoW is a different game, with a lot of different strategies.

Battles tend to play sort of "cinematically," but usually give good historical results. Basically that means the game is not as dry as a lot of the more serious historical simulations, but the game is just as likely to end up in a similar historical fashion (i.e. infantry moving in the open is going to get cut apart by machine guns, but they are extremely hard to move from cover or dug-in positions; tanks can move aggressively across open terrain, but are going to have trouble in difficult terrain and urban environments, especially if enemy infantry is around).

The cool thing about Flames of War is that because nearly all of the armies and units are well-balanced, there is no real "über army," and nearly all the units are useful. In fact, well-balanced armies are more likely to do well than armies that load up on just a couple things and thus can't cover as many bases.

Tanks are very useful, but so is infantry. Artillery is also very useful, but none of these things are the "ultimate unit" that will grant you an easy win. The fact that it's in 15mm is great too, because if you decide to try another WW2 ruleset, there are many that your FoW minis will be able to be used in.

Also, don't be intimidated by the smaller 15mm scale. As someone who's painted in both 25-28mm and 15mm, 15mm is not more difficult to paint in, per se, you will just need to use some different techniques than you are used to using if you've only been painting in 25-28mm. In some ways, I actually think 15mm is easier to get good results in than 28mm, once you get used to it.



If you've got any more specific questions, I'd be glad to help.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/26 08:57:16


   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





jp400 wrote:Plus everyone around here only want to play Larger battles, so it would eat up most the day just playing one game. This at times isnt a bad thing, but tends to get very old by hour 5+ lol.


You've got a point about game length. You can play FoW with small points/scenarios but I too have found that everyone wants to ramp up the number of points/size of scenario and some of the big battles can take all day. Still all-in-all I like the system, it's a nice compromise between totally unrealistic games like 40K and hard core historical games which take a PhD to play.
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending





Houston, TX

Hordini: Interesting assessment. I agree that FoW gets alot of the big stuff right (encourages cover, etc.) but is still a very "gamey" game. Particularly special abilities. The abstraction of ranges also leads to some odd results. It also gives an unrealistically high degree of control (which, admittedly, many game players like). All in all, it is a fun light game, but I think it actually reflects 40K better than WW2 (and 40K).

-James
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







jp400 wrote:
Plus everyone around here only want to play Larger battles, so it would eat up most the day just playing one game. This at times isnt a bad thing, but tends to get very old by hour 5+ lol.





Isn't that what Apoc did for 40k?

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Who says I play Apoc at all? I dont.
   
Made in gb
Major





Its all down to your personal preference. To me FoW is an excellent WW2 rule set and is only slightly more complex than 40K. Put it this way if you can handle WFB than FoW will be a doddle!

I admit it’s a game not a simulation, quite frankly I don’t want a simulation. It is however fun, balanced and fast paced. My preference is for 1500 points (a company + support elements) on a 6 x 4 table. It gives plenty of room for manuver. Make sure you use plenty of terrain, far more so than you would in a 40K game. This makes the game far more interesting. It also makes very good use of scenarios.

It also means allot of research, go to your local 2nd hand bookstore or clearing book store and pick up some cheap books on WW2 battles. To me this is one of the most satisfying parts of the Wargaming hobby.

Of course there other scales if you prefer, 20mm is always good and is cheap to as you can take advantage of multitude of 1/72 scale figures and kits to be found at you local hobby store or sold in bulk for stupidly cheap prices on eBay, Ive literally seen hundreds of figures going for a few pounds. Or 28 mm is great if you love to paint, but is a pricy option especially if you plan on involving vehicles.

Rapid Fire is a very good rule set for 20mm. I've also heard good things about Command Decision and rules of Engagement.

"And if we've learnt anything over the past 1000 mile retreat it's that Russian agriculture is in dire need of mechanisation!" 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

I like the FoW ruleset too, It's not much more complicated that 40k at all and is very logical in almost all situations (unlike 40k IMO)

Spain in Flames: Flames of War (Spanish Civil War 1936-39) Flames of War: Czechs and Slovaks (WWI & WWII) Sheffield & Rotherham Wargames Club

"I'm cancelling you, I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf." - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show
 
   
Made in ie
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!




Kildare, Ireland

FOW is a game that uses WW2 style miniatures. It has no real historical accuracy. But if you want a quick and easy game... Then it may be for you.

Personally, I would play BKC. Much better ruleset, based on Warmaster and all the army lists in the one rulebook.

I tend to play either Rapid Fire or Force-On-Force, both in 20mm... Which is the 'only' scale to do WW2 in! ;-)


 Strombones wrote:
Battlegroup - Because its tits.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





One of the things that I like about FoW is that it avoided getting bogged down in historical accuracy and went more for game play. It is not the most historically accurate, but I liked a lot of their concepts.

Units have a rating for Skill and Morale. So you can have veterans with low morale and conscripts with high morale. They may be effective but run away quckly, or totally inexperienced but afraid of the kommissar.

In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el






Richmond, VA

Big P wrote:FOW is a game that uses WW2 style miniatures. It has no real historical accuracy. But if you want a quick and easy game... Then it may be for you.

Personally, I would play BKC. Much better ruleset, based on Warmaster and all the army lists in the one rulebook.


What is BKC? I love the Warmaster system, so WW2 based on that seems all kinds of awesome. Also does it have a list for British Rifle Companies?

 
   
Made in ie
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!




Kildare, Ireland

BKC = Blitzkreig Commander

has lists for ALL armies... All of them!



I would like to know why historical accuracy makes a game bog down? How does getting the history right and having the right vehicles make a game slower. Sorry but I think thats just an excuse for the shoddy treatment of history that FOW gives out. As they are touting a 'historical' subject that could have some respect and get the history right.

But if you dont care about accuracy and want gameplay, then it doesnt matter what you play... Its the game you want not an interest in history.

Rapid Fire is a fast play set, much quicker than FOW, but it plays historically. Force-On-Force plays historically requiring real world tactics, again it plays very fast. Being historically accurate does not mean a game bogs down.

Im biased thoug... Im very serious about WW2 history, im a military historian by trade, so I take it a bit more seriously than most...

 Strombones wrote:
Battlegroup - Because its tits.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





By historical accuracy, I mean more from a 'stats' perspective than anything in game play.

Commandoes, Rangers, and Paratroopers are all elite troops. How much can you differeniate between them without going to multiple special rules or using lots of dice? I'm content with a game system that says they are all Elite and puts them in the same general category.

It's like trying to differentiate between a .50-cal (12.7mm) and a 15mm machine gun. Yes, they're different, with differing calibers, muzzle velocities, firing rates, and reload rates. But, I'm content calling them both a heavy machine gun and using the same rules if it speeds up the game (instead of trying to account for differing amor penetration, rates of fire, reload times, etc).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/01/30 22:24:47


In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer 
   
Made in de
[DCM]
The Last Czarnian






The Northwest Territory

Alright. No offense to anyone intended, but after reading some of these posts I'm starting to develop a sneaking suspicion that some of you guys don't really know what you're talking about when it comes to FOW. I don't mean this as an insult, I am just interested in seeing a bit of support for these claims of how FOW is not historical.

There seems to be a lot of ill-will and what can only be called rumors about how the game works that has been disseminated on sites like TMP (a site which is usually a great resource, I will say). However, when confronted, most of these naysayers don't really have any idea how the game actually works.

Several of you have made claims that FOW "has no real historical accuracy" and gives a "shoddy treatment of history," or otherwise doesn't play historically.

As of yet, none of you have actually given any evidence to support this. Like I said, I've heard similar comments made before, but I've heard no real evidence that FOW gives any less historical results than any other more "serious" historical ruleset. It does tend to play more cinematically, but that does not mean it is inherently less historical. It also uses some abstraction to attain its results, but I don't think this really has anything to do with whether or not the ruleset is historically accurate or not, as every miniatures gaming ruleset uses abstraction.

So please, do tell me what you all mean when you say FOW has no historical accuracy or gives a shoddy treatment of history. I will say, rather, that the opposite is true and that while FOW is not necessarily the most historically accurate game ever it does have a rather solid historical basis, and can give a good treatment of history.

I will gladly provide some more specific reasons if you guys can produce some evidence as to why it's not historical.

   
Made in ie
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!




Kildare, Ireland



Perhaps you should tell us how FOW is more accurate than other games by the same token?


 Strombones wrote:
Battlegroup - Because its tits.
 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el






Richmond, VA

Big P wrote:I would like to know why historical accuracy makes a game bog down? How does getting the history right and having the right vehicles make a game slower. Sorry but I think thats just an excuse for the shoddy treatment of history that FOW gives out. As they are touting a 'historical' subject that could have some respect and get the history right.


While I kind of agree about FoW, I'm a much bigger fan of relatively 'rules-lite' games, and I find that most games that go for historical accuracy tend to cram in rules for representing every little detail, which while it can be fun if I'm in the right mood, I generally prefer a slightly faster playing abstraction of rules.

I like the sound of this BKC and may see if that has the right balance for me and lets me play the Brits in North Africa

 
   
Made in de
[DCM]
The Last Czarnian






The Northwest Territory

Big P wrote:

Perhaps you should tell us how FOW is more accurate than other games by the same token?




Like I said, I gladly will, but it's a little bit easier if I have more to go on that just "FOW is unhistorical, lol!" What is it you find so unhistorical about it? The sliding time and range scale? The fact that there is a points system that you can use if you want to? Or something else?

   
Made in gb
[ADMIN]
Da Big Mek






London, UK

One side note that I found interesting recently is that FoW is becoming popular enough that the place I usually buy it online ( http://www.empiregamestore.co.uk/ ) is ditching their PP and GW ranges to go exclusively FoW. Glad it wasnt the other way around!

Check out our new, fully plastic tabletop wargame - Maelstrom's Edge, made by Dakka!
 
   
 
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