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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I have a tendency to rant when it comes to this game so I will make it brief. 40K, even with all the ork 5th ed balance issues, is a much better game than FoW.

I have played FoW twice and observed many battles at my local store while painting. The rules for FoW are utter nonsense. The game has WWII tanks shooting while on the move (they couldn't hit anything on the move at that time period) and the Germans have an array of totally ahistorical rules to give them advantages they didn't have.

Might I add that this game has onboard artillery as well. 40K has whirlwinds onboard, but at least this is a fictional game. I can go look up the ranges for artillery in WWII and tell you that it is not going to be deployed on the board with 100% certainty. If you are going to be a historical game, at least get things like that right.

/flame off
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

Then you should you a different ruleset.

I think you are misunderstanding the nature of a turn in FoW. The tank moving and shooting perhaps represents the tank moving then stopping to fire, thus the reduced rate of fire compared to a tank that did not move. There were tanks that could fire on the move in this period.

Artillery is on table as a game balance (and to sell models). Off table artillery is not well suited to a company based game if you want both sides to have fun.

I would disagree FoW is a better game than 40k. FoW is not a brilliant WWII simulation.

Spain in Flames: Flames of War (Spanish Civil War 1936-39) Flames of War: Czechs and Slovaks (WWI & WWII) Sheffield & Rotherham Wargames Club

"I'm cancelling you, I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf." - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in southern England.

40K is the first game I've ever played which banned pre-measuring. A fair number of rules specify that you can measure whatever you need to.

Petition to stop ratification of EU Article 13 on Internet Copyright

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




George Spiggott wrote:Then you should you a different ruleset.

I will use a different rule set. I'm not demanding anyone to quit playing it. I'm just giving my opinion on the ruleset. I think FoW is a total nonsense game. If it were a fictional game, that would be one thing. But it is not. I am just saying I would spend my hard-earned money on this game.

I think you are misunderstanding the nature of a turn in FoW. The tank moving and shooting perhaps represents the tank moving then stopping to fire, thus the reduced rate of fire compared to a tank that did not move. There were tanks that could fire on the move in this period.

No one except Americans that I am aware of had gyro-stabilized turrets and even then shooting on the move was really poor. Abysmally poor. As in worse than a "6" on a D6 poor. So no, shooting on the move should not be allowed in FoW.

Artillery is on table as a game balance (and to sell models). Off table artillery is not well suited to a company based game if you want both sides to have fun.

Again, find another way to balance your game. Artillery happens. The whole point is that the enemy infantry and tanks CAN'T get to your artillery. Sorry Germans, you get to be pounded by a lot of long toms. I'm sorry if its not fun. 1944 was not fun for the Germans, therefore the game should reflect this, or else it is not a WWII game.

I would disagree FoW is a better game than 40k. FoW is not a brilliant WWII simulation.


Both games have no overwatch, but no army in 40K can abuse the lack of overwatch rules like the Germans can in FoW. Stormtrooper is the dumbest rule I've seen in a miniatures game since 2nd edtion 40K. There is no way a Tiger can come out from behind a building, shoot at M-18s and NOT get shot back at. Sorry. The whole German army being veteran? Seriously. I could go on. Again, 40K has a lot more give in it just because it IS fictional. FoW is also fiction, with pretense of history. Sadly, the unit abilities in 40K make MORE sense.

/flame off
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Kilkrazy wrote:40K is the first game I've ever played which banned pre-measuring. A fair number of rules specify that you can measure whatever you need to.





I actually like no pre-measuring. Puts some risk into the game. Although you'd think the techno-armies would have range finders.......... oh well.
   
Made in gb
Human Auxiliary to the Empire




A very good ww2 game which can use all scales is Battlefield Evolution: World At War by Mongoose Publishing.

Simple and effective, and good support website at evocommand.com

DR:90-S++G+MB+I--Pww204#+D++++A+/sWD292R+++T(B)DM+

http://gamercard.xbox.com/Alive%20monkey.card 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Mongoose is still in business?

Overall, I think Flames makes a lot more sense than 40k, and Germans being "Veteran" reflects their discipline and command structure in addition to time in theatre. And it helps show how the Germans are different from the non-Germans.

I think that you're like a lot people who take stuff too literally. If the "Veteran" were changed to "Disciplined" or "stereotypically Prussian", perhaps that would be better?

   
Made in gb
Human Auxiliary to the Empire




JohnHwangDD wrote:Mongoose is still in business?


Yeah Starship troopers and Babylon 5 were only two of thier games, they still exist everyone

DR:90-S++G+MB+I--Pww204#+D++++A+/sWD292R+++T(B)DM+

http://gamercard.xbox.com/Alive%20monkey.card 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

Martel732 wrote:Both games have no overwatch, but no army in 40K can abuse the lack of overwatch rules like the Germans can in FoW. Stormtrooper is the dumbest rule I've seen in a miniatures game since 2nd edtion 40K. There is no way a Tiger can come out from behind a building, shoot at M-18s and NOT get shot back at. Sorry. The whole German army being veteran? Seriously. I could go on. Again, 40K has a lot more give in it just because it IS fictional. FoW is also fiction, with pretense of history. Sadly, the unit abilities in 40K make MORE sense.

/flame off

Except not all the Germasn lists are Veteran. Flames of War makes a lot of simplifications ‘stormtrooper’ being just one of them. We could gripe about holes in the Flames of War rules all day but I don't feel the need to as overall I enjoy the game. I think you need to find another rule set for your 15mm miniatures if Flames of War doesn't float your boat.#

Mongoose are in business AFAIK just not in the business of making miniatures.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/03/08 13:16:46


Spain in Flames: Flames of War (Spanish Civil War 1936-39) Flames of War: Czechs and Slovaks (WWI & WWII) Sheffield & Rotherham Wargames Club

"I'm cancelling you, I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf." - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show
 
   
Made in de
[DCM]
The Last Czarnian






The Northwest Territory

Yeah, not all German lists are veterans, and almost every other nation has lists with veteran-rated troops. British infantry, for example, is confident veteran (the same as many German lists) in Mid-war.

Also, what's so bad about Stormtrooper movement, really? It's not a guarantee. It's nice, but I've seen many players (including myself) rely on their stormtrooper movement for a crucial move and then get toasted when they fail their skill test.

And with a Tiger's long range, it doesn't necessarily need to be stormtrooper shuffling to take out M-18s anyway.

   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Auburn, CA

garythewargamer wrote:The thing that got me into flames of war was actually two things. You get to measure before you shoot. A unit can shoot at different units which means all your figures will get their best firing chance.


Err...well...i'd reccomend GMT's Command and Color: Ancients, over Memoir 44. They're the same game, essentially. But CC:A is soooo much better.

The use of the left/center/right system and the nature of the card play make M44 so completely divorced from how WW2 combat actually works. I feel the system works better for Ancients battles than for WW2.

M44 is a fun game, no doubt, but it's a helluva step down from even something as simple as Flames of War.

If you like the cardplay in M44 then i'd suggest taking a look at Combat Commander: Europe by GMT.

It's hex and counter, but all your actions are dictated by the cards you draw. You can play multiple cards in a turn (unlike M44/CC:A) and you also have the ability to discard cards.

It has alternating actions, defensive fire (and other ways to interrupt the the other plays actions), and a whole lot of other chrome.

It's a fairly simple game too with one of the best rulebooks ever written. It's only about 20 pages or so.

Alternatively another Squad Level (where the playing pieces represent a squad, the battles are usually around Company Level forces) is Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear. It has an absolutely brilliant alternating action/unit activation system. I truly love this game. It's by Academy games. It's hex and counter, but it has mounted mapboard and really thick counters.

Kilkrazy wrote:40K is the first game I've ever played which banned pre-measuring. A fair number of rules specify that you can measure whatever you need to.


I like this rule, otherwise players would measure over and over and over again on there turn making it endlessly slower to play. You mentioned Squad Leader earlier. I know for a fact that Advanced Squad Leader doesn't allow for pre-measuring of Line of Sight when determing a fire attack, I assume SL is the same, since ASL is built off SL. And while both A/SL are IGOUGO i think that's more of a product of when they were created (late 70s/early 80s.) I actually don't mind the turn order in ASL.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/03/09 02:40:35


Waagh! Lagduf
Sons of Vulkan
Cadian Mountain Division
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

C&CA is the one with the blocks? No thanks. Having wound counter minis is integral to the game. If I wanted to play with chits, I'd play something else.

The L/C/R thing works fine even in M'44, especially when playing things like Omaha Beach...

Battlelore, of course, is loads of fun. I think I prefer it to WFB...

   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Auburn, CA

JohnHwangDD wrote:C&CA is the one with the blocks? No thanks. Having wound counter minis is integral to the game. If I wanted to play with chits, I'd play something else.

The L/C/R thing works fine even in M'44, especially when playing things like Omaha Beach...

Battlelore, of course, is loads of fun. I think I prefer it to WFB...


If you wont play a game simply because of the pieces it uses to represent the troops then that is your preference. I think it's absurd as I'm more interested in playing a fun game then playing a game with "neat and pretty" pieces.


Waagh! Lagduf
Sons of Vulkan
Cadian Mountain Division
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Part of the fun of C&C system is the models for wound counters, and the visual impact of the game. Blocks just don't convey that.

   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Auburn, CA

JohnHwangDD wrote:Part of the fun of C&C system is the models for wound counters, and the visual impact of the game. Blocks just don't convey that.


As I stated above, I disagree. Ultimately it's a matter of preference and I don't hold "visual impact" too high on what i'm looking for in any game. If the pieces are functional then i'm fine with it. Nice looking bits for me is just the icing on the cake.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/03/09 05:07:12


Waagh! Lagduf
Sons of Vulkan
Cadian Mountain Division
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Right. And I think it's similarly absurd to go through the trouble of raising production values to stop with wooden blocks.

   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Auburn, CA

JohnHwangDD wrote:Right. And I think it's similarly absurd to go through the trouble of raising production values to stop with wooden blocks.


Yes, you've stated as much twice. I disagree (as stated above, twice.)

Waagh! Lagduf
Sons of Vulkan
Cadian Mountain Division
 
   
Made in de
[DCM]
The Last Czarnian






The Northwest Territory

As far as pre-measuring goes, I've never had a problem with it bogging down the game during FoW. Most people don't actually pre-measure that much I find, and you can always measure a bit during your opponent's turn, which speeds up things as well. Personally, I think being able to measure any time is a good thing, and as long as both players can do it, it's not really an advantage or a disadvantage.

I've heard Command Decision is good, if you are into a more "simulation" type WW2 wargame, and I think FoW minis would work nicely in Command Decision. I will probably give it a try myself at some point.

And fun games are....well, fun, but I think a lot of people here are looking for fun miniatures games as well, so of course the miniatures are an important part of that. Personally I'm looking forward to trying out Panzer Blitz or Panzer Leader when I get back to the States though, and that's just a hex game.

   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Auburn, CA

Hordini wrote:And fun games are....well, fun, but I think a lot of people here are looking for fun miniatures games as well, so of course the miniatures are an important part of that. Personally I'm looking forward to trying out Panzer Blitz or Panzer Leader when I get back to the States though, and that's just a hex game.


Yes, nice components are always a plus. But if i'm not playing a tabletop miniatures game such as WFB, FoW, 40K, etc then i'm not as concerned. With board games (of which M'44 and C&C:A are) a good, solid set of rules with fun gameplay is the most important aspect for me. If a game isn't fun, then it doesn't matter how good it looks because in my opinion it would just be a waste of my time. When you add miniatures to boardgame the price increases substantially and at that point the extra cost isn't worth it.

Now tabletop miniatures are expensive, but with tabletop miniatures I can also get a lot of fun out of building and painting the models. If 40K was a prepainted miniatures game I simply wouldn't play it as I really don't feel for a squad level game (where units typically represent squads of men) that 40k is that good. As mentioned above I feel the IGO-UGO turn structure is completely dated for this style of tactical game. Pure IGOUGO works fine at larger levels (operational and strategic) but at the tactical level (in modern combat) it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. While games like Squad Leader and Advanced Squad Leader use an IGOUGO system, your opponent at least gets to do stuff on your turn in several different phases (and both those games are products of the 1970s.) I wish 40K had something like that. I'd love if FoW did too.

http://www.multimanpublishing.com/preorder/viewGame.php?id=38

A new edition of Panzerblitz is on pre-order from Multi-Man Publishing. Not sure when it's expeced to finally go to print.

What other 15mm World War 2 rulesets are out there? I'd like to play something that isn't IGOUGO and has some sort of defensive/oppurtunity/reaction/overwatch fire.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/03/09 20:02:59


Waagh! Lagduf
Sons of Vulkan
Cadian Mountain Division
 
   
Made in de
[DCM]
The Last Czarnian






The Northwest Territory

Lagduf wrote:What other 15mm World War 2 rulesets are out there? I'd like to play something that isn't IGOUGO and has some sort of defensive/oppurtunity/reaction/overwatch fire.



Command Decision is supposed to be good, but I'm not really sure how it works, having never played it. As I said though, it's more of a simulation, so it probably has something like that. You could play Nuts! in 15mm if you really want to, but you'll probably want single-based models.

   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending





Houston, TX

Yeah, Nutz! is a great game, but really a different scale since it focuses on individual troop actions.

You might take a look at Crossfire as you can use FOW bases just fine. It's a pretty neat system that has some innovative concepts in it. Disposable Heroes also gets mentioned alot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/03/09 22:27:05


-James
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I think the greatest WWII game I have ever played is DoDIII/World in Flames. The game does such a great job of modeling 1936-1946. The players can change history, but only sort of. The basic sides can never change, and you can't build units that there were not at least plans for.

Of course, this is a hex strategy game, but I am so disappointed by FoW sheer historical inaccuracies. The models are so nice, but the game is such crap.

I'm going to state one fact here that shows why the stormtrooper rule is unjustified hogwash. Fact: The average operational speed of the German army in WWII was no better than the Union army of the American Civil War. Also, the majority of the equipment was transported via horse. Think about that for a second.

Blitzkrieg is a total fabrication. Conquer France in 30 days? I can bike across it in 5. IF the Germans were really as good as FoW shows them, they would have been in Kamchatka by '42.

Bottom line is, the Germans were not that great. Look at their boneheadedness in the Soviet Union. But People love to play Germans. People love Germans to be way overpowered so they can feel cool. For this reason, they love German models. That's what sells.

For some reason, people want the Germans to be more than they were: outnumbered, outproduced, outstrategized, and outspied.
   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Auburn, CA

Martel732 wrote: Of course, this is a hex strategy game


Thats the second time a statement like this has been made in this thread. Do you mean to state hex and counter games are inferior in some way or am I misreading?

If only I could find a tactical WW2 miniatures game that was also as popular as FoW.

Anyone got any links to some other affordable 15mm WW2 tanks?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/03/10 06:28:54


Waagh! Lagduf
Sons of Vulkan
Cadian Mountain Division
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




No, no. I was just pointing out that WiF is not a model game, and therefore not an alternative to FoW. I PREFER hex and counter games. They are usually far more accurate than model games of WWII. However, I realize people like models and those games have their place.

FoW is king of the hill for right now. Personally, I find this appalling, but whatever. The give and take of WiF is fantastic. 1936-1942 the Axis gets to be the badasses. Usually come about 1943 though, they get better get ready for some beatdowns. In 1943, the US typically has more units on the production wheel than the whole Axis put together
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

Martel732 wrote:Blitzkrieg is a total fabrication. Conquer France in 30 days? I can bike across it in 5... ...For some reason, people want the Germans to be more than they were: outnumbered, outproduced, outstrategized, and outspied.

Yet somehow they made the task they took six weeks to perform in 1940 take six months for the allies to perform in 1944 whilst being, outproduced, outstrategized, and outspied and while the bulk of their forces were fighting on another front.

Spain in Flames: Flames of War (Spanish Civil War 1936-39) Flames of War: Czechs and Slovaks (WWI & WWII) Sheffield & Rotherham Wargames Club

"I'm cancelling you, I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf." - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show
 
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending





Houston, TX

Martel732 wrote:
Blitzkrieg is a total fabrication. Conquer France in 30 days? I can bike across it in 5. IF the Germans were really as good as FoW shows them, they would have been in Kamchatka by '42.

Bottom line is, the Germans were not that great. Look at their boneheadedness in the Soviet Union. But People love to play Germans. People love Germans to be way overpowered so they can feel cool. For this reason, they love German models. That's what sells.

For some reason, people want the Germans to be more than they were: outnumbered, outproduced, outstrategized, and outspied.


Agree with the last part but not the first. German's rapid push through Europe surprised everyone. Their rapid advance pushed the Allied forces back with such rapidity and ferocity that I think Blitzkrieg and its reputation were appropriate (even if the Ardennes invasion owed a great deal to a lucky misdirected set of plans). See also the African campaign and Rommel's rapid advances. However, the Germans had serious logistics limitations that often made these advances a double edged sword as they frequently had problems keeping supply lines and support up with the military spearhead. Again, Rommel's African advance is a good illustration- he pushed hard and fast and left his supply lines behind and almost got himself killed. The German high command also had extremely bad combined arms cooperation (largely driven by ego conflicts rather that legitimate strategic disagreement) between the branches and a total lack of an overall plan as demonstrated by blunders like Dunkirk (where the German navy, though small, should have been capable of cutting off a sea retreat) and other (numerous) conflicts between the army command, SAS, Luftwaffe, etc. The fact that their central authority was a megalomaniac lacking in understanding of extended military strategy and logistics didn't help. And, yes, the Soviet campaign was a disaster.

People like to play the Germans, I think, because they seemed to be a powerhouse that collapsed under a series of ridiculously bad decisions. Wargamers, especially, see the potential of German armor, infantry, air support, etc. and think they could do better. Of course, wargames rarely address the reasons that the Axis was doomed even with competent military strategy (US production alone pretty much guaranteed eventual Allied victory, especially when teamed with a Soviet threat on Germany's eastern border). But moving panthers around and MG42 supported infantry is pretty fun, so meh. Personally, I think a German conquest of western and central Europe was probably feasible. It would have probably required more buildup and a resolution prior to US entry. I don't know that Britain could have ever been invaded successfully; certainly not without crushing the fleeing Dunkirk forces. And the Soviet invasion was probably a bad idea, but may have been tenable if the Germans had made a strong push to take Moscow instead of diverting all over Russia (especially Stalingrad). My guess is that Moscow would have been a fight comparable to Stalingrad, but taking the capital would have had a profound effect on the SU and would have probably undermined Stalin. Or spurred the Soviets into a fanatical mode. Regardless, I think Hitler's persecution of the Jews was not only reprehensible, but foolish in that it basically drove central/East Europe towards the Soviets to avoid annihilation of their large Jewish populations.

And hindsight is always 20/20. If the Germans could be successful with such backwards looking, the Americans are downright unstoppable! I mean what if the Americans had used supply escorts and air reconnaissance sooner and less sporadically? German UBoat sinking rates like those in '43 occurring in '41-42 would be amazing in terms of supply. It also means a massive invasion sooner. Or what if the French had not panicked? Their forces could have probably held back the German invasion, especially with British support (French armor was a match to German and British air support was easily a match for German pilots). Indeed, most games reflecting early war must institute an artificial mechanic to force French players to behave like their historical counterparts, or the Germans have serious problems!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/03/10 15:22:15


-James
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Great here we go. Another Germanophile. I guess one advantage they did have was that they were not a coalition force. I'm sure the Western front would been accelerated had the Allies never listened to Montgomery about... well anything.

Although the Germans were impressive in many areas, they were not nearly as good as FoW makes them out to be.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Actually WiF does force France into being a patsy. There is not much the French player can do about it, so usually the American player runs France.

While there is no doubt that Germany's early victories caught people offguard, I think that people were getting ready for WWI all over again. Me trotting down the road without breaking a sweat is a blitzkrieg compared to WWI, where the front barely moved. WWI's slowness does not make blitzkrieg a reality, only a media catchphrase.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

@Martel: Are the Germans all-conquering in FoW?

Or do they just beat *you* down?

Seriously, you got a lot of hate for them, and it doesn't seem entirely rational.

It's just a game.

   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Auburn, CA

Where can I get affordable 15mm WW2 infantry and vehicles that would be compatible across a number of WW2 tabletop minis systems? Are there any cheaper/better than the FoW stuff?

Waagh! Lagduf
Sons of Vulkan
Cadian Mountain Division
 
   
 
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