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I cannot find the answer to this question. If I use Vulkan as my HQ and ally my self with say a unit of sisters. Do the sisters benefit from Vulkan's flamer buff?

By the rules, it is perfectly allowed. Vulkan is written differently from other HQ choices that state you trade combat tactics for whatever their special ability confers. With him, it's an army-wide buff.

It obviously wasn't intended as such.

G

sourclams wrote:By the rules, it is perfectly allowed. Vulkan is written differently from other HQ choices that state you trade combat tactics for whatever their special ability confers. With him, it's an army-wide buff.

"perfectly allowed"

Maybe bad written in the english codex SM.

The wording "your army" doesn't include "your army and it's allies," so I'd say no, it doesn't affect your allies.

Asmodeus wrote:The wording "your army" doesn't include "your army and it's allies," so I'd say no, it doesn't affect your allies.

By the same token the wording "your army" doesn't include "your army and all it's heavy support choices", so none of the heavy support choices from codex space marines benefit. You have simply chosen to apply a value to army which may or may not be correct. Since GW never properly define an army as being either from a single codex or potentially from multiple it's hard to know exactly how far this rule can extend.

sourclams wrote:By the rules, it is perfectly allowed. Vulkan is written differently from other HQ choices that state you trade combat tactics for whatever their special ability confers. With him, it's an army-wide buff.

I do not agree with this statement. Vulkan He'stan's Chapter Tactics say the following:
If you include He'stan then all units in your army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Instead, all thunder hammers in your army will count as master-crafted, and all flamers, heavy flamer, meltaguns and multimeltas count as twin-linked.

To me, the use of the word instead, means that the following benefits are only gained when the Combat Tactics special rule is lost by a unit. Therefore I think allies do not benefit of Vulkan He'stan's Chapter Tactics.

It says army wide so i think it would be entirely alowed, "army wide" to me seems like everything you haev in ur list, allies or not
So with RaW it would be all SM, SoB, Daemonhunters and w.e else you have allied with ur army

To me, the use of the word instead, means that the following benefits are only gained when the Combat Tactics special rule is lost by a unit.

If that were the case then no vehicle in the army would benefit from this rule, as none of them have Combat Tactics. Which is why the wording of He'Stan's Chapter Tactics doesn't replace combat tactics like other special characters.

RAW, allies are part of your army -- if they weren't then they wouldn't take up FOC slots or cost points.

There's even fluffy ways to explain it away. Salamander's are all artificers in their own right and Salamanders have some of the best techmarines around. Shouldn't be to hard for them to retrofit some Inquisition flamers and meltas to work better and use their better mix of fuel. I mean they can technicaly do so for other chapters of space marines as well (eg a 'Superfriends' army) so why not for some nuns with guns?

Asmodeus wrote:The wording "your army" doesn't include "your army and it's allies," so I'd say no, it doesn't affect your allies.

Since the allies are a part of your army, then indeed it does affect them.

So just to sum it all up, yes, He'stan applies to all of the listed weapons that you bring to the table. Some people might not like it, some people might think that it wasn't "intended", but it's 100% legit because of the way He'stan is worded.

Only a totally cheesy player would try this.

G

Then you can call me Mr. Cheese!

We get all kinds here.

G

There is no cheese!

I side with the allies having twin-linked flamers.

The cost of this is that the space marines lose combat tactics.

In the cost's stead, or instead, all units in your army get twin-linked and mastercrafted...

If you have allies, they're units in your army.

Airmaniac wrote:

sourclams wrote:By the rules, it is perfectly allowed. Vulkan is written differently from other HQ choices that state you trade combat tactics for whatever their special ability confers. With him, it's an army-wide buff.

I do not agree with this statement. Vulkan He'stan's Chapter Tactics say the following:
If you include He'stan then all units in your army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Instead, all thunder hammers in your army will count as master-crafted, and all flamers, heavy flamer, meltaguns and multimeltas count as twin-linked.

it says that ALL units lose combat tactics and then it says ALL thunder hammmers and ALL flamers and ALL meltas are master-crafted so there for they wouldnt need combat tactics to have this work it just says your units that have combat tactics lose it. so yes it does work with allies.

Airmaniac wrote:

sourclams wrote:By the rules, it is perfectly allowed. Vulkan is written differently from other HQ choices that state you trade combat tactics for whatever their special ability confers. With him, it's an army-wide buff.

I do not agree with this statement. Vulkan He'stan's Chapter Tactics say the following:
If you include He'stan then all units in your army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Instead, all thunder hammers in your army will count as master-crafted, and all flamers, heavy flamer, meltaguns and multimeltas count as twin-linked.

To me, the use of the word instead, means that the following benefits are only gained when the Combat Tactics special rule is lost by a unit. Therefore I think allies do not benefit of Vulkan He'stan's Chapter Tactics.

Totally agree with you here. And just so everyone knows, even with the word "Instead", some people can still have some ground to argue otherwise. But with the new SM FAQ question:

Q. When you select some special characters
(Shrike, Vulkan, etc.) all units in the army
exchange the rule ‘Combat Tactics’ for another
one (like Stubborn) thanks to the rule ‘Chapter
Tactics’. However, the special characters
themselves follow the rule ‘Combat Tactics’. Is
this intentional? As I understand it, the rule
Combat Tactics is in fact the ‘Chapter trait’ of the
Ultramarines and other ‘Codex’ chapters...
A. Ah, the Combat Tactics rule is just there for
when you use two different special characters and
have to choose which of their Chapter Tactics rule
apply. So, say for example that you include both
Shrike and Lysander in your army. You decide that
Lysander is in charge, so all of the units with
Combat Tactics (including Shrike) replace
‘Combat Tactics’ with ‘Stubborn’. So, these
special characters never really have the ‘Combat
Tactics’ rule, as they either exchange for their
own ‘Chapter Tactics” or the “Chapter Tactics’ of
another such special character. In term of the
story, if they are subordinate to another
commander, these great heroes are flexible
enough to adapt to the fighting style of their
battle-brother. (emphasis mine)

It seems clear that GW's intention is for anyone with combat tactics ability (i.e. SM from Codex SM) can replace it with a Chapter Tactic, and that is what Vulcan Heston's ability is.

So, I would most resoundingly say a big negative for it affecting anyone but SM from Codex SM.

Edit: you may also note they put Vulcan's name up there with the original question so this explanation does apply to his Chapter Tactics too.

All I see from that FAQ entry is that Combat Tactics is exchanged for something. In Vulkan's case the Combat Tacts is lost so that all units in the army can have twin-linked stuff and so on.

I agree that Shrike's entry is a valid example of combat tactics being replaced. Vulkan's entry is different. I'm usually a big proponent of RAI, but I feel that the RAW written in the SM Codex lend themselves to Vulkan's ability transferring to all units in your army.

I think the most interesting part of the FAQ ruling is the first part that states:

"Q. When you select some special characters
(Shrike, Vulkan, etc.) all units in the army
exchange the rule ‘Combat Tactics’ for another
one (like Stubborn) thanks to the rule ‘Chapter
Tactics’."

If the question part of the FAQ is as valid as the Answer part, then it would seem to say that Vulkan's ability can only be used by units in the army that exchange the rule 'combat tactics.' In this case I would agree that Vulkan's ability does not transfer.

Is the Question part of the FAQ cannon?

Exactly what I am referring too lifeafter. Vulcan is indeed listed as part of the original question. And GW answers with a very solid statement:

"all of the units with
Combat Tactics (including Shrike) replace
‘Combat Tactics’ with ‘Stubborn’. So, these
special characters never really have the ‘Combat
Tactics’ rule, as they either exchange for their
own ‘Chapter Tactics”

It seems GW intends for anything with the Combat Tactics rule has benefit of the Chapter Tactic rule. I think the BIG disconnect is that it says the words "all" and "army" in the description for Vulcan's Chapter Tactics.

The easiest explanation to this that would also follow the FAQ and Vulcan's rule at the same time is that the rule is intended to work with the Chapter's vehicles too, which of course do not have "Combat Tactics".

IMHO, anyone who reads this as sisters gaining the ability is reading too much into this rule and we can all agree the spirit of the rule is clearly showing that this rule is a specific Chapter tactic and hence only for marines who follow the codex astartes (i.e. Codex SM units).

EDIT: This is of course all my opinion, and at any tournament or anything else, its a good idea to ask the TO. Or at any friendly game, to discuss this with your opponent before the game.

good point! Looks like the cheesy ones are foiled after all.

G

i would totaly agree with you padixon but it says that all flamers in the army gain master crafted the word all is what needs to be looked at.

Deathmachine wrote:i would totaly agree with you padixon but it says that all flamers in the army gain master crafted the word all is what needs to be looked at.

actually it says all Thunder hammers are master crafted, and all flamers, heavy flamers, meltaguns, and multi-meltas are twin-linked.

So, just to be clear, none of you play with twin-linked Heavy Flamers or meltas on your Speeders, Land Raiders, or Dreadnoughts when fielding Vulkan. Because that is going to be a natural effect of your argument when you say that Vulkan's SR only applies to units with "combat tactics".

With reference to the SM FAQ:

Q. When you select some special characters
(Shrike, Vulkan, etc.) all units in the army
exchange the rule ‘Combat Tactics’ for another
one (like Stubborn) thanks to the rule ‘Chapter
Tactics’. However, the special characters
themselves follow the rule ‘Combat Tactics’. Is
this intentional? As I understand it, the rule
Combat Tactics is in fact the ‘Chapter trait’ of the
Ultramarines and other ‘Codex’ chapters...
A. Ah, the Combat Tactics rule is just there for
when you use two different special characters and
have to choose which of their Chapter Tactics rule
apply. So, say for example that you include both
Shrike and Lysander in your army. You decide that
Lysander is in charge, so all of the units with
Combat Tactics (including Shrike) replace
‘Combat Tactics’ with ‘Stubborn’. So, these
special characters never really have the ‘Combat
Tactics’ rule, as they either exchange for their
own ‘Chapter Tactics” or the “Chapter Tactics’ of
another such special character. In term of the
story, if they are subordinate to another
commander, these great heroes are flexible
enough to adapt to the fighting style of their
battle-brother. (emphasis mine)

It's clear that Combat Tactics rule is only intended as a limiting factor when using two special characters (hey, it's exactly what is written in the bold part of the FAQ). I see absolutely no reference to Vulkan being limited only to units with Combat Tactics because that is not the qualifier for his SR. This is why a Dreadnought, Land Speeder, or Inquisitorial ally benefits from the rule. The qualifier is the weapon type, losing combat tactics is simply the "penalty" the player must accept.

I play that Vulkan gives TL to ALL units in my army, allies and vehicles included. Although I can see where the FAQ might give some insight into a RAI argument for why the TL shouldn't go beyond Space Marines, I believe that the RAW are pretty clear about all units in your army benefiting from the TL and Mastercrafted special rule.

nope.

Pointless question to a pointless answer..

Wait..

What's most disturbing about this is that the "instead" makes it clear that the intention was to only allow units with chapter tactics to have twin-linked weapons, while at the same time it declares that all units in your army can have twin-linked weapons.

In one sentence they've managed to tell us what they wanted the rules to do AND what the rules actually do. I applaud GW for this one. This is epic.

Personally, I don't see why there is such a big argument over this. The only benefit is that Sisters of Battle will get twin linked on a bunch of guns that you can already have more of if you take Space Marines. There is no advantage here. Look at it:

You could have 1 dominion squad with 4 flamers or meltaguns and the gun on their transport (which I believe is already twin-linked and therefore irrelevant).
You could have 2 regular squads of sisters which each can have 2 meltaguns or flamers and possibly their transport.

Are 3 squads with 10 meltaguns between them really that great? If you have a woodie for meltas and flamers take 9 attack bikes with multimeltas or 30 Sternguard with 30 combi-meltas and avoid the rules argument. You'll have better troops too.

Mike Leon wrote:What's most disturbing about this is that the "instead" makes it clear that the intention was to only allow units with chapter tactics to have twin-linked weapons, while at the same time it declares that all units in your army can have twin-linked weapons.

In one sentence they've managed to tell us what they wanted the rules to do AND what the rules actually do. I applaud GW for this one. This is epic.

Personally, I don't see why there is such a big argument over this. The only benefit is that Sisters of Battle will get twin linked on a bunch of guns that you can already have more of if you take Space Marines. There is no advantage here. Look at it:

You could have 1 dominion squad with 4 flamers or meltaguns and the gun on their transport (which I believe is already twin-linked and therefore irrelevant).
You could have 2 regular squads of sisters which each can have 2 meltaguns or flamers and possibly their transport.

Are 3 squads with 10 meltaguns between them really that great? If you have a woodie for meltas and flamers take 9 attack bikes with multimeltas or 30 Sternguard with 30 combi-meltas and avoid the rules argument. You'll have better troops too.

But the Sisters Troops score, Sternguard wont, and Attack Bikes wont.

Plus its bodies on the board all with a 3+ save, or better (well different) depending how you use your Faith. There are 1850 Forces out there with these 2 combined that are packing 7 Faith Points for the Sisters to use. A base Sister is also cheaper in points to a Marine as well.

Not to mention the Sisters then use Divine Guidence on said Flamers so that any roll to wound of a 6 is AP1. With re-rolls to wound due to being Twin Linked.. I think you can see why it is much better then you think.

Then you have the Book of St. Broke for 5 points per unit. Reading the rules of this piece of wargear, it makes all Friendly or Allied models (its one of those 2 wordings, just cant recall which from work) within 6" essentially Stubborn in that they dont suffer and penalties to LD when making tests. So now any Marine units near by are getting the benifit of unmodifiable LD 9 base. Throw in Sicarius as your second HQ and they all have unmodified LD 10. Add ina unit or 2 of the Jump Pack Sisters, and the Sisters themselves will also have that same unmodified LD 10 if they are close by.

One must really look past just having Flamers and Meltas and take in the whole entirety of the nastyness.

And if you want to get technical, the Brazier of Holy Fire that a Sister Superior (if thats the name of the Sergant equivilent which is what im referring to) can take, can be fired as Flamer once per game as well. So you can get 3 Flamers in a Unit. Now if you allow Forgeworld in your games, you put this unit in a Repressor which comes with a Heavy Flamer and has 6 Fire Points for the cost of a Rhino in the Sisters Codex (Though you can only Fire one Flamer from the Fire Points in the Top Hatch). You have one Troops choice Shooting 2 Flamers, a Heavy Flamer and a 1 Shot Flamer in one turn. All of that being Twin Linked with the 3 Flamers being Divine Guided so AP 1 on 6's to wound.

Mike Leon wrote:What's most disturbing about this is that the "instead" makes it clear that the intention was to only allow units with chapter tactics to have twin-linked weapons, while at the same time it declares that all units in your army can have twin-linked weapons.

In one sentence they've managed to tell us what they wanted the rules to do AND what the rules actually do. I applaud GW for this one. This is epic.

Actually the Instead in that sentence doesn't make it clear that that was the intention. As I pointed out earlier, the Instead in that sentence can be used to explain that the Cost of the TL ability is that your army loses chapter tactics.

The operative word in this whole thing is the ALL. It doesn't say Space Marines, Vehicles, or Units with Combat Tactics. It says ALL.

Airmaniac wrote:

sourclams wrote:By the rules, it is perfectly allowed. Vulkan is written differently from other HQ choices that state you trade combat tactics for whatever their special ability confers. With him, it's an army-wide buff.

I do not agree with this statement. Vulkan He'stan's Chapter Tactics say the following:
If you include He'stan then all units in your army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Instead, all thunder hammers in your army will count as master-crafted, and all flamers, heavy flamer, meltaguns and multimeltas count as twin-linked.

To me, the use of the word instead, means that the following benefits are only gained when the Combat Tactics special rule is lost by a unit. Therefore I think allies do not benefit of Vulkan He'stan's Chapter Tactics.

By that logic, any unit that didn't have combat tactics (like dreadnoughts and other vehicles) would not get the venifit of the twin linked flamers. Do you think that is the case?

Edit: Looks like I'm a bit late in pointing that out...oh well.