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Phoenix wrote:
By that logic, any unit that didn't have combat tactics (like dreadnoughts and other vehicles) would not get the venifit of the twin linked flamers. Do you think that is the case?

Edit: Looks like I'm a bit late in pointing that out...oh well.

It's all good. Redundancy is rewarded by ridiculous page counts.

lifeafter wrote:

Mike Leon wrote:What's most disturbing about this is that the "instead" makes it clear that the intention was to only allow units with chapter tactics to have twin-linked weapons, while at the same time it declares that all units in your army can have twin-linked weapons.

In one sentence they've managed to tell us what they wanted the rules to do AND what the rules actually do. I applaud GW for this one. This is epic.

Actually the Instead in that sentence doesn't make it clear that that was the intention. As I pointed out earlier, the Instead in that sentence can be used to explain that the Cost of the TL ability is that your army loses chapter tactics.

The operative word in this whole thing is the ALL. It doesn't say Space Marines, Vehicles, or Units with Combat Tactics. It says ALL.

You're totally right. I actually said something to that effect originally, but I cut it from the post because I thought it was too redundant. There is no debate that the RAW state that Vulkan's ability extends to allies. I play it that way. I'm just pointing out that this is one of those unusual cases where there is really good evidence that the RAW directly conflicts the RAI. The verbage is sort of comical.

Instead, all thunder hammers in your army will count as master-crafted, and all flamers, heavy flamer, meltaguns and multimeltas count as twin-linked.

The instead doesn't actually mean anything in this sentence. You can take it out or put it back in and the rule accomplishes exactly the same thing. That makes you wonder why they put it there at all. We know it refers to Combat Tactics because of the sentence before it, but even that doesn't change the outcome because you end up with this:

Instead of having combat tactics, all thunder hammers in your army will count as master-crafted, and all flamers, heavy flamer, meltaguns and multimeltas count as twin-linked.

It still says your whole army gets twin-linked.

@anybody arguing that Sisters + Vulkan is unbalanced.

I just don't think so. You really can't factor in things like faith points or AP1 flamers because Sisters have those things anyway without Vulkan. If those things make them overpowered then they were that way to begin with. I realize that you can have about 60 meltas or flamers in a Sister list before your FOC fills up, and that's a lot. It's definitely a challenge to play against. But those weapons have 12" range and those Sisters (S3 T3) are going to get wasted by fast moving close combat specialists, or winged monsterous creatures, or even carefully played dreadnoughts or ork hordes on the waagh, basically anything that can stay out outside 12" until it is ready to smash them (or just smash them from outside 12"). So, yeah, there are armies that will not have a chance against 60 twin-linked meltas. There are other armies that will beat them.

I personally would rather have something more balanced for taking on a variety of opponents and Space Marines are a better choice for that.

Phoenix wrote:

Airmaniac wrote:

sourclams wrote:By the rules, it is perfectly allowed. Vulkan is written differently from other HQ choices that state you trade combat tactics for whatever their special ability confers. With him, it's an army-wide buff.

I do not agree with this statement. Vulkan He'stan's Chapter Tactics say the following:
If you include He'stan then all units in your army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Instead, all thunder hammers in your army will count as master-crafted, and all flamers, heavy flamer, meltaguns and multimeltas count as twin-linked.

To me, the use of the word instead, means that the following benefits are only gained when the Combat Tactics special rule is lost by a unit. Therefore I think allies do not benefit of Vulkan He'stan's Chapter Tactics.

By that logic, any unit that didn't have combat tactics (like dreadnoughts and other vehicles) would not get the venifit of the twin linked flamers. Do you think that is the case?

If we are following what was written in the Space Marine codex, then yes, my interpretation, as written above, of the rule would not give the vehicles (which do not have Combat Tactics) the benefits of Vulkan He'stan's Chapter Tactics.

However, as was pointed out, Vulkan He'stan's Chapter Tactics rule could be interpreted in another way as well, which would give your entire army (therefore including allies, as they are part of your army) the benefits, even to units who didn't have the Combat Tactics rule in the first place.

My earlier conclusion was therefore false, as there is no way to know in which way the word 'instead' should be interpretated. GW will have to add an answer to this question to their FAQ. Not that they will do that anytime soon, as the Space Marine FAQ was only recently released.

Heh. I love this thread.

From allowing sisters to use vulkans rule, all the way to disallowing half the units in the SM from benefiting from it as well.

As an aside, the final 2009 Adepticon INAT FAQ allows Vulkans rules to affect allied units.

SM.93A.01 – Q: Does Vulkan’s Chapter Tactics benefit weaponry of allied units included in the army (such as allied Sisters of Battle flamers, for example)?
A: Yes, if the weapon is part of his army, including inquisitorial allies, then it benefits from his Chapter Tactics special rule [RAW].

While this isn't an official GW ruling, it certainly will be played like this at adepticon. Which for good or ill does have wide influence over how GW make their rulings, recent history sets that precedence.
Ork armies and your assumed dominance, beware.

I think if GW ever does make a ruling it will be the opposite of the INAT FAQ. I doubt we will ever see this though as it should have been addressed in the recently released SM FAQ.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I think if GW ever does make a ruling it will be the opposite of the INAT FAQ.

Quite possible, as they have reversed Adepticon rulings in the past.
I recall Yakface being CERTAIN that GW would never allow Swooping Hawks to "rubberhawk" and yet...they now can legally.

Mike Leon wrote:@anybody arguing that Sisters + Vulkan is unbalanced.

I just don't think so. You really can't factor in things like faith points or AP1 flamers because Sisters have those things anyway without Vulkan. If those things make them overpowered then they were that way to begin with. I realize that you can have about 60 meltas or flamers in a Sister list before your FOC fills up, and that's a lot. It's definitely a challenge to play against. But those weapons have 12" range and those Sisters (S3 T3) are going to get wasted by fast moving close combat specialists, or winged monsterous creatures, or even carefully played dreadnoughts or ork hordes on the waagh, basically anything that can stay out outside 12" until it is ready to smash them (or just smash them from outside 12"). So, yeah, there are armies that will not have a chance against 60 twin-linked meltas. There are other armies that will beat them.

I personally would rather have something more balanced for taking on a variety of opponents and Space Marines are a better choice for that.

Looking at these things in a vaccum is why your not seeing it, in my opinion. While I am in no way saying this is overpowered, Im simply pointing out the benifits of un planned combinations. Faith was never over powered, but it was never designed to have a character from another codex twin link most of the special weapons in the army either.

You keep bringing up Melta Guns, but again these are not the weapons of balance you seek. The benifit and blanace is Famers. They wreck hoards, and saturate MEQ's with saves, when Twin Linked like this. While you may not blow apart a MEQ Squad with one T/L Flamer, you might have a good chance of at least forcing all the unique models a save of their own to fail.

So adding this up, as a Scoring Troops Choice allied to Salamanders Army, You get 9 Battle Sisters with a Flamer and Heavy Flamer, 1 Veteran Sister Superior with a Combi-Flamer and BoStL, and a Repressor which has itself another Heavy Flamer. This in total is about 227 points. With Hestan this is 2 T/L Flamers and 2 T/L Heavy Flamers that can fire in a single turn, and except for the vehicle, fires a the same time at a target unit. Add in a little Faith, and 30 man Ork Mob or 10 man Marine Squad is going to get hurt badly. Further there are 14 more bolter shots that are AP 1 on a 6 as well that are being shot. Even taking away the Repressor (as its FW) and putting them into a Rhino you still have a crazy output.

Take a similar squad of Marines with a Razorback transport and your going to spend the same, if not more depending how you kit your squad out. All that combined your not going to math the output of fire from the Sisters Squad with all its benifits from Faith, and Vulkans rules combined. Add in that while in the vehicle all Marine Models within 6 of it, like screened Assault Squads, are going to now have an unmodifiable LD 9 against anything. Stubborn and ATSKNF is a powerful combination, and the Sisters are providing this.

Really look at the whole picture. You are not going to match the level of benifits you get from dropping a few of these units into a Vulkan Army for as much or fewer points then you would have taken in other Marine Troops Choices. Taking Sisters for Melta Guns is silly and not balanced, this is true. Taking them for Divine Guided T/L Flamers, HeavyFlamers and making your other units Stubborn (equivilent), is.

EDIT: Sorry for taking this to a metagame tactics conversation and being away from the Rule portion that was originally intended.

I don't have my books on me so feel free to prove me wrong.
My understanding is that GW defines 'army' as a single codex and when allying, it is two armies working together. Like a Whitch Hunter army with Space Marine allies. They are combined into a single force.

The FOC section does tend to use the term army in regards to a single codex, but there is the line in the multiple depolyment rules that state that each FOC is a seperate army. As such any force under one FOC is an army.