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Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

*golf clap*

The right to criticise religion is being slowly doused in acid. Across the world, the small, incremental gains made by secularism – giving us the space to doubt and question and make up our own minds – are being beaten back by belligerent demands that we "respect" religion. A historic marker has just been passed, showing how far we have been shoved. The UN rapporteur who is supposed to be the global guardian of free speech has had his job rewritten – to put him on the side of the religious censors.


The Universal Declaration of Human Rights stated 60 years ago that "a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief is the highest aspiration of the common people". It was a Magna Carta for mankind – and loathed by every human rights abuser on earth. Today, the Chinese dictatorship calls it "Western", Robert Mugabe calls it "colonialist", and Dick Cheney calls it "outdated". The countries of the world have chronically failed to meet it – but the document has been held up by the United Nations as the ultimate standard against which to check ourselves. Until now.

Starting in 1999, a coalition of Islamist tyrants, led by Saudi Arabia, demanded the rules be rewritten. The demand for everyone to be able to think and speak freely failed to "respect" the "unique sensitivities" of the religious, they decided – so they issued an alternative Islamic Declaration of Human Rights. It insisted that you can only speak within "the limits set by the shariah [law]. It is not permitted to spread falsehood or disseminate that which involves encouraging abomination or forsaking the Islamic community".

In other words, you can say anything you like, as long as it precisely what the reactionary mullahs tell you to say. The declaration makes it clear there is no equality for women, gays, non-Muslims, or apostates. It has been backed by the Vatican and a bevy of Christian fundamentalists.

Incredibly, they are succeeding. The UN's Rapporteur on Human Rights has always been tasked with exposing and shaming those who prevent free speech – including the religious. But the Pakistani delegate recently demanded that his job description be changed so he can seek out and condemn "abuses of free expression" including "defamation of religions and prophets". The council agreed – so the job has been turned on its head. Instead of condemning the people who wanted to murder Salman Rushdie, they will be condemning Salman Rushdie himself.

Anything which can be deemed "religious" is no longer allowed to be a subject of discussion at the UN – and almost everything is deemed religious. Roy Brown of the International Humanist and Ethical Union has tried to raise topics like the stoning of women accused of adultery or child marriage. The Egyptian delegate stood up to announce discussion of shariah "will not happen" and "Islam will not be crucified in this council" – and Brown was ordered to be silent. Of course, the first victims of locking down free speech about Islam with the imprimatur of the UN are ordinary Muslims.
Here is a random smattering of events that have taken place in the past week in countries that demanded this change. In Nigeria, divorced women are routinely thrown out of their homes and left destitute, unable to see their children, so a large group of them wanted to stage a protest – but the Shariah police declared it was "un-Islamic" and the marchers would be beaten and whipped. In Saudi Arabia, the country's most senior government-approved cleric said it was perfectly acceptable for old men to marry 10-year-old girls, and those who disagree should be silenced. In Egypt, a 27-year-old Muslim blogger Abdel Rahman was seized, jailed and tortured for arguing for a reformed Islam that does not enforce shariah.

To the people who demand respect for Muslim culture, I ask: which Muslim culture? Those women's, those children's, this blogger's – or their oppressors'?

As the secular campaigner Austin Darcy puts it: "The ultimate aim of this effort is not to protect the feelings of Muslims, but to protect illiberal Islamic states from charges of human rights abuse, and to silence the voices of internal dissidents calling for more secular government and freedom."

Those of us who passionately support the UN should be the most outraged by this.

Underpinning these "reforms" is a notion seeping even into democratic societies – that atheism and doubt are akin to racism. Today, whenever a religious belief is criticised, its adherents immediately claim they are the victims of "prejudice" – and their outrage is increasingly being backed by laws.

All people deserve respect, but not all ideas do. I don't respect the idea that a man was born of a virgin, walked on water and rose from the dead. I don't respect the idea that we should follow a "Prophet" who at the age of 53 had sex with a nine-year old girl, and ordered the murder of whole villages of Jews because they wouldn't follow him.

I don't respect the idea that the West Bank was handed to Jews by God and the Palestinians should be bombed or bullied into surrendering it. I don't respect the idea that we may have lived before as goats, and could live again as woodlice. This is not because of "prejudice" or "ignorance", but because there is no evidence for these claims. They belong to the childhood of our species, and will in time look as preposterous as believing in Zeus or Thor or Baal.

When you demand "respect", you are demanding we lie to you. I have too much real respect for you as a human being to engage in that charade.

But why are religious sensitivities so much more likely to provoke demands for censorship than, say, political sensitivities? The answer lies in the nature of faith. If my views are challenged I can, in the end, check them against reality. If you deregulate markets, will they collapse? If you increase carbon dioxide emissions, does the climate become destabilised? If my views are wrong, I can correct them; if they are right, I am soothed.

But when the religious are challenged, there is no evidence for them to consult. By definition, if you have faith, you are choosing to believe in the absence of evidence. Nobody has "faith" that fire hurts, or Australia exists; they know it, based on proof. But it is psychologically painful to be confronted with the fact that your core beliefs are based on thin air, or on the empty shells of revelation or contorted parodies of reason. It's easier to demand the source of the pesky doubt be silenced.

But a free society cannot be structured to soothe the hardcore faithful. It is based on a deal. You have an absolute right to voice your beliefs – but the price is that I too have a right to respond as I wish. Neither of us can set aside the rules and demand to be protected from offence.

Yet this idea – at the heart of the Universal Declaration – is being lost. To the right, it thwacks into apologists for religious censorship; to the left, it dissolves in multiculturalism. The hijacking of the UN Special Rapporteur by religious fanatics should jolt us into rescuing the simple, battered idea disintegrating in the middle: the equal, indivisible human right to speak freely.


original article


So.... it's now pretty much impossible for the Un to say..anything abour what happens in Muslim countries then ?

And this is progress ?

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in gb
Major





A sad, sad day. It is essential for the sake of freedom, that nothing (and yes I do mean nothing) is above legitimate criticism Please note there is a vast difference between criticism and offence, many radicals however cannot tell the difference.

"And if we've learnt anything over the past 1000 mile retreat it's that Russian agriculture is in dire need of mechanisation!" 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control






Yorkshire, UK

A good friend of mine keeps saying that he's going to go to a goat farmer in lapland because society is crumbling.



I'm starting to think he's got a point.

While you sleep, they'll be waiting...

Have you thought about the Axis of Evil pension scheme? 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

Indeed, frankly I'm astonished that enough other countries went for it in the first place. I wouldn't have thought that Russia, China, similar would have been too bothered. Wonder what they got out of it then.

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



NoVA

UN folds.

I fixed the subject line for you, red
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

dienekes96 wrote:UN folds.

I fixed the subject line for you, red


But....


...I

....you see...


...bugger.




It's alright, I'll give it a few minutes and someone'll "helpfully" blame it on Bolton and we can slag Bush/EVIL America off again and normal service will be resumed.



( NOT a request ! Thanks anyway!)

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
Wicked Warp Spider





Knoxville, TN

I'm sorry, I don't see what the problem is to expect to have one's beliefs respected publicly, regardless of how you may feel about them. Do I believe the way, I don't know, Hindus do? No, i do not. Would I denigrate their religion. No.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

But there's a difference between denigration and discussion no ?

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





reds8n wrote:Incredibly, they are succeeding. The UN's Rapporteur on Human Rights has always been tasked with exposing and shaming those who prevent free speech – including the religious. But the Pakistani delegate recently demanded that his job description be changed so he can seek out and condemn "abuses of free expression" including "defamation of religions and prophets". The council agreed – so the job has been turned on its head. Instead of condemning the people who wanted to murder Salman Rushdie, they will be condemning Salman Rushdie himself.


The article is built around the above. Everything else is a generic atheists get it tough rant. If the above is true, it's serious business. If it isn't true the whole thing is just so much more internet noise. It's a shame no reference was given in the article to what exact change he's so worried about, because having a look around I can't find anything to substantiate the above.

I can't even figure out what might have changed. The Rapporeurs for Human Rights is a different post to the Rapporteur for Religious Freedom, both have been around a long time and I can't find anything changing the nature of either role.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control






Yorkshire, UK

I think the point is that the Pakistani delegate called for the change because he believes that there is such a thing as 'abuse of free speech' - specifically in this case that no-one has the right to criticise Islam.

Either we have free speech or not - it doesn't have limits or it isn't free.

While you sleep, they'll be waiting...

Have you thought about the Axis of Evil pension scheme? 
   
Made in us
Wicked Warp Spider





Knoxville, TN

reds8n wrote: But there's a difference between denigration and discussion no ?


Its fine if you don't believe in God, i don't particularly. But the discussion this person is speaking of, as evidenced by the tone of his arguments, is public humiliation and ridicule. I don't understand why people need to go about criticizing people's faith and equating faith with evidence based knowledge. What harm in believing in something that makes people feel better. Fine, you're an athiest, what gives you the right to drag people into "reality" as you see it??
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

link

fox article prior to vote

link

I'm not going to claim that original article or these are 100% guaranteed accurate, but they're all pushing in the same direction.

That said Hari ( article author) does indeed have a bit of a bugbear about "atheists getting it tough."

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
Wicked Warp Spider





Knoxville, TN

Chimera_Calvin wrote:I think the point is that the Pakistani delegate called for the change because he believes that there is such a thing as 'abuse of free speech' - specifically in this case that no-one has the right to criticise Islam.

Either we have free speech or not - it doesn't have limits or it isn't free.


That is a 1 or 10 argument, that does not have to be the case at all.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

1. I don't give a fig for the UN. I do care greatly about freedom of speech, even in this regard.

2. I have heard this before. Its being used as a method to stifle a whole slurry of human rights items in Middle Eastern countries, and impose their standards on the rest of the world.

I'd better stop at this point, else I may have to report myself as violating Dakka rules, and frankly I've had to give myself a good talking to one too many times this year already

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Chimera_Calvin wrote:I think the point is that the Pakistani delegate called for the change because he believes that there is such a thing as 'abuse of free speech' - specifically in this case that no-one has the right to criticise Islam.


Yeah, but the link below is the lady in question. She's the Special Rapporteur on freedom of religion or belief, her task has been protection of freedom of religion. Protection of freedom of speach is tasked to other Rapporteurs.

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/issues/religion/


Either we have free speech or not - it doesn't have limits or it isn't free.


Fine. But when someone uses their free speech, its up to other's to look at what's been said and ask 'is that true?'.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

Grignard wrote:

Its fine if you don't believe in God, i don't particularly. But the discussion this person is speaking of, as evidenced by the tone of his arguments, is public humiliation and ridicule. I don't understand why people need to go about criticizing people's faith and equating faith with evidence based knowledge. What harm in believing in something that makes people feel better. Fine, you're an athiest, what gives you the right to drag people into "reality" as you see it??


I'm an atheist through and through-- might go for the deathbed conversion just in case but that's anotehr thread...-- I still don't see how discussion in the UN over issues such as child abuse or the stoning to death of women is equivalent to "public humiliation and ridicule".

In fact it is/was ( depending upon "denomination") a central tenet of Islam that rational thought and discussion is a key facet of human existence and should be encouraged.

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

The dictator will use any means to maintain power. Religion has a history of being used in that context.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






The land of cotton.

reds8n wrote: But there's a difference between denigration and discussion no ?


Of course there is... until it's YOUR religion that's being discussed. Then it becomes denigration.

You've hit the nail right on the head, of course. No one wants their particular brand of religion talked about in a negative manner. If it's the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth then how could you even find fault?!? That's blasphemy! Islam in general does not tolerate questioning of Islam. If you speak against the prophet then you must die. That's what's being taught. How do I know? Because I see Islamic yoofs taking to the streets with signs chanting "Death to America" and heard them calling for Rushdie's head and my President's head for years.

Grignard wrote:I don't understand why people need to go about criticizing people's faith and equating faith with evidence based knowledge. What harm in believing in something that makes people feel better. Fine, you're an athiest, what gives you the right to drag people into "reality" as you see it??


Well, when your belief system includes killing your wife or children if they bring Islam shame or sawing the heads off those you see as opposing "The Truth" then I'd say that constitutes harm.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/28 14:51:41


 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





reds8n wrote:link

fox article prior to vote

link

I'm not going to claim that original article or these are 100% guaranteed accurate, but they're all pushing in the same direction.

That said Hari ( article author) does indeed have a bit of a bugbear about "atheists getting it tough."


Yeah, but they're all from reactionary sites. I gave the original story a little more leeway because I think the author is reasonably well regarded (I don't read him, just going off of memory). The other sites don't substantiate anything really, there's a reference to a bill banning the defamation of religion (not the same thing as banning criticism of religious practice) and then long rants about stuff that isn't at all related.

I'm not saying there isn't a story here, but I'm still waiting to see it, if you know what I mean.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

To clarify Mr. Green Git : it's not taught like that everywhere, it's more the rise of a/some very strict and hard line sects/denominations. sadly the more militant ones-- the ones who chase women/girls back into burning buildings as they're dressed improperly-- are backed by many of the existing very rich regimes who do very well out of maintaining the status quo.

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in gb
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot






UK

Free speech is all good, but what about when its speaking against other peoples freedoms?

Would Free speech allow the Natzi's to hold rally's in Nurmberg today? Its their right to speak. Its our right to protect the oppressed.

I get confused about this issue.

Stick to the shadows - Strike from the darkness - Victorus aut Mortis - Ravenguard 1st Company 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





The Green Git wrote:Of course there is... until it's YOUR religion that's being discussed. Then it becomes denigration.

You've hit the nail right on the head, of course. No one wants their particular brand of religion talked about in a negative manner. If it's the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth then how could you even find fault?!? That's blasphemy! Islam in general does not tolerate questioning of Islam. If you speak against the prophet then you must die. That's what's being taught. How do I know? Because I see Islamic yoofs taking to the streets with signs chanting "Death to America" and heard them calling for Rushdie's head and my President's head for years.


Your understanding of Islam as the religion of a billion people is pathetically limited.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in gb
Major





Grignard wrote:I'm sorry, I don't see what the problem is to expect to have one's beliefs respected publicly, regardless of how you may feel about them. Do I believe the way, I don't know, Hindus do? No, i do not. Would I denigrate their religion. No.


I have no issue with the private lives and beliefs of individuals providing they do not affect me or adversely affect others. However as soon as they start to impose themselves upon myself or other people then damn right I intend to kick up a fuss, loudly and publically.

Bishops in the house of lords, the introduction of shariah law, religious indoctrination in state schools, the hijab, calls for homosexuals to be treated as second class citizens, the Danish cartoon debacle are just a few examples I can think of where is right and proper to criticise religion.

That some would seek to take away my freedom of speech with regards to these matters, under the smokescreen of showing respect, is nothing short of disgusting. Its nothing to do with poking fun or insulting people private beliefs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/28 15:04:34


"And if we've learnt anything over the past 1000 mile retreat it's that Russian agriculture is in dire need of mechanisation!" 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





reds8n wrote: To clarify Mr. Green Git : it's not taught like that everywhere, it's more the rise of a/some very strict and hard line sects/denominations. sadly the more militant ones-- the ones who chase women/girls back into burning buildings as they're dressed improperly-- are backed by many of the existing very rich regimes who do very well out of maintaining the status quo.


Absolutely. There are dangerous reactionary groups, but to claim the majority of muslims are like that is simply wrong.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

sebster wrote:
Yeah, but they're all from reactionary sites. I gave the original story a little more leeway because I think the author is reasonably well regarded (I don't read him, just going off of memory). The other sites don't substantiate anything really, there's a reference to a bill banning the defamation of religion (not the same thing as banning criticism of religious practice) and then long rants about stuff that isn't at all related.

I'm not saying there isn't a story here, but I'm still waiting to see it, if you know what I mean.


Oh totally, but those were merely the first 3 that turned up in the google search, and I haven't been able to find any actual counters to this.

And......it's not often that Hari agrees with Fox if you follow me.

to claim the majority of muslims are like that is simply wrong.


QFT.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/28 15:07:02


The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

This reminds me of when the Soviet Union and other communist bloc countries were big on the idea of peoples' rights -- as opposed to human rights -- which meant in effect the right of governments to be protected from stuff.

This religious speech rights is the same thing only ostensibly for religion but actually it will be used to prevent dissent and criticism of undemocratic governments many of which happen by luck to be in Islamic countries.

If religion is to be protected from criticism, why not belief sytems such as politics, climate change denial, paedophilia, accountancy standards and other such conceptual frameworks.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





reds8n wrote: And......it's not often that Hari agrees with Fox if you follow me.


True dat. I'm off to bed now but I'll check into this some more at lunch tomorrow.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in gb
Major





Also an indefensible position often becomes defensible when shrouded in anything people are unable to criticize. Not because the argument becomes any stronger but because people become afraid to attack.

Lets take an example, a man at a dinner party declares he detests homosexuals. When quizzed as to why the he gives one of the following 2 answers.

A) Well I don’t like the way they mince along, their camp voices annoy me and I hate Celine Dion. They don't even play Rugby, bloody poofs.

or

B) It's an abomination to the lord Jesus/Allah/Thor/The Party.

Now im willing to be answer A would be greeted with cries of bigotry, and rightly so. Answer B on the other hand with nothing more than a few awkward mumblings before the conversation is moved swiftly along.

Now I'm not saying all religious people think like this, far from it so please don’t assume I am. I'm just using this as an example of how granting carte blanche 'respect' to any ideology (religious or political) can potentially be very dangerous. We cannot become tolerant of intolerance.

"And if we've learnt anything over the past 1000 mile retreat it's that Russian agriculture is in dire need of mechanisation!" 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

s.j.mccartney wrote:Free speech is all good, but what about when its speaking against other peoples freedoms?

Would Free speech allow the Natzi's to hold rally's in Nurmberg today? Its their right to speak. Its our right to protect the oppressed.

I get confused about this issue.


I don't want the UN or Saudi Arabia telling me what my free speech rights are. I have an absolute right to free speech under the US Constitution guaranteed by the full faith and credit of thousands of MRV'd missiles. The UN can biteth me.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

The Green Git wrote:You've hit the nail right on the head, of course. No one wants their particular brand of religion talked about in a negative manner. If it's the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth then how could you even find fault?!? That's blasphemy! Islam in general does not tolerate questioning of Islam. If you speak against the prophet then you must die. That's what's being taught. How do I know? Because I see Islamic yoofs taking to the streets with signs chanting "Death to America" and heard them calling for Rushdie's head and my President's head for years.

Grignard wrote:I don't understand why people need to go about criticizing people's faith and equating faith with evidence based knowledge. What harm in believing in something that makes people feel better. Fine, you're an athiest, what gives you the right to drag people into "reality" as you see it??


Well, when your belief system includes killing your wife or children if they bring Islam shame or sawing the heads off those you see as opposing "The Truth" then I'd say that constitutes harm.


This is what's wrong with this situation is that the media makes people believe this is true. There is no tenet of faith in Islam that allows you to do these things and in fact the Quran actually teaches differently. Things the extremists do in the name of Islam is generally strictly forbidden in the Quran(there's a reason Osama Bin Laden has been exiled and baned from at least 2 Middle Eastern countries), which actually teaches tolerance of other religions. Next time you want to post about a religion, why don't you actually LEARN something about it before you start spouting the ignorant propaganda you learn from CNN and Fox News every night.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
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