Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What do you think are the best close combat armies? I have to pick both nob bikers and daemonic hordes. Both of these are quite resilient to say the least. I think that often an invulnerable save is better than any other save... for instance you can often find yourself in a position where the only dice you can roll for a save are invulnerable. Cover saves are awesome In 5e but a shrewd opponent can find ways to deny them.

G

Here are my votes:

1) Nob Bikers (other ork lists work as well)
2) Khorne/Slanesh Deamons
3) BA
4) Khorne CSM
5) Nids? not really sure after this perhaps BT?

As I have seen it these are the top tier CC armies. In no particular order:

Orks
Black Templars
Khorne CSM
Khorne Daemons
Nids

Nids. Or daemons. Not much can stand up to 2 cc tyrants and guard with a lot of backup stealers. Getting to cc is another question though.

Space Wolves deserve a mention. Their infantry (except for Long Fangs) universally receive Counter-Charge. The Grey Hunters can even use their bolter as if it were a pistol in CC, so they get 3 attacks when charged! Meanwhile the Blood Claws are very cheap, get 4 attacks on the charge, and have access to super-cheap power weapons/power fists. This is not to mention that you can take 15 of them. They do have WS 3 but that's not too much of a hindrance, considering.

I honestly don't think Orks are that remarkable a CC army. Their big strength is shooting, and being better at CC than other shooting armies. Yes, you can create an Ork list that will be tough and resilient in CC (Nob Bikaz, Deffwing), but against "true" close combat armies like Templars, Khorne Daemons, and Combat Nids they're going to come up short due to low initiative and base S3.

Are you guys all daft? Tau are obviously the best close combat army!! My firewarriors regularly put a spanking on broodlords in close combat!

Seriously though - I'm going to have to go with Orks as the best close combat army. Yes, Orks are initiative 3, and are probably going to go after you, but when 200 points of orks assault 200 points of...whatever, even though they get their attacks last, that hidden powerklaw equalizes things.

Not to mention that Orks have the single most powerful close combat model: Ghazghkull Thraka. With his 2+ invulnerable save on the Waaugh! combined with his 7 strength 10 powerklaw attacks on the charge...nothing stands up to him. And a smart player brings him along with a squad of Nob buddies, one of which is a painboy, and several others of which have powerklaws, and all of which are equipped differently. I've yet to run into an enemy that I couldn't incein close combat.

The closest thing to a problem I've ever had was a chaos player who took Abaddon and a squad of possessed marines in a land raider; he rolled for his power and got a 6, which means that all the possessed have power weapons. In that case, I just break Ghazghkull off from the Nobs and assault independently, and the Nobs assault the next turn and get free attacks since the they can't be attacked back that turn (the other two units are locked in combat and can't react).

I agree that with a few exceptions orks in general are not a top cc army. I would pick daemonic hordes and BA right off the top of my head.

G

Dash I gotta say youve got the multi-combats rules a bit wrong there.. units can react.

"Before combat (before any unit attacks)" < Thats after assault moves & defenders react stages.

Anyways.. Nids. The humble gaunt.. either spinefist & +1 I or the fleshgaunt.. rocks many kinds of socks.

I'd say bugs, especially 'stealer oriented armies, and of course khorne 'zerkers. I had a bit of a problem with Nob bikers at my last tourney, so I guess I'd have to say them too.

Orks FTW!!!

Dashofpepper wrote:Seriously though - I'm going to have to go with Orks as the best close combat army. Yes, Orks are initiative 3, and are probably going to go after you, but when 200 points of orks assault 200 points of...whatever, even though they get their attacks last, that hidden powerklaw equalizes things.

200 pts Orks:

26 Sluggas
Nob, PK, Boss Pole

200 pts Blood Claws:

14 Blood Claws

If Orks charge:

Blood Claws kill 7-13 (depending on how many get countercharge)

Avg. 16 Orks attack back

Avg 21 wounds, Blood Claws save 14, 7 die. Nob hits 3, probably kills another 3, Orks kill 10 avg versus 7-13, combat is basically a tie. Next turn Blood Claws kill 3 more Orks, Orks kill 6 Blood Claws, Orks win by resolution with 10 left.

If Blood Claws charge, Orks die outright on 2nd turn of assault with something like half a dozen Blood Claws left.

And that's against Weapon Skill 3 Blood Claws. Basic Orks are at best "mediocre" combatants. Yes, Orks can be tooled to be crazy in the assault versus basic troops (Nobz, Megas), but then you have to compare them to things like Assault Terminators or Blood Crushers and again they begin to come up short. Ghaz is a crazy combat MoFo, but he's also turtle-speed-slow and you can either shoot up his mob for two turns or knock out the battlewagon he and his buddies are riding in.

Orks. Without question.

They have multiple builds (the most vicious being Nob Bikers) that excell at close combat. They have replaced Nids on the top of the assault food chain.

Perhaps when they get a new codex the Nids will again be awesome. But until then they are far behind.

Bloodcrusher, Nob bikz, Genestealer shock, Templars and BA. In exaclty that order.

Sourclams, the thing is...

With Orks, its fairly easy to insure that you go first with the Waaugh! I always have Ghazghkull in my army, so turn 2, I have 13-18" for my assault. I tend to favor Trukk boyz, and a common theme in my army is that everyone is in a trukk: That means that Turn 2, I have a 27" assault. My Trukks move up 13", boyz deploy out 2", get a free 6" on the Waaaugh! with Ghazghkull, and another 6" assault.

I'm not worried about getting assaulted; I *always* get the assault.

*EDIT* And there's more to being good at CC than just model vs. model who can kill better. What other army has a 27" assault range?

Epidemius daemons army.

Dashofpepper wrote:Sourclams, the thing is...

With Orks, its fairly easy to insure that you go first with the Waaugh! I always have Ghazghkull in my army, so turn 2, I have 13-18" for my assault. I tend to favor Trukk boyz, and a common theme in my army is that everyone is in a trukk: That means that Turn 2, I have a 27" assault. My Trukks move up 13", boyz deploy out 2", get a free 6" on the Waaaugh! with Ghazghkull, and another 6" assault.

I'm not worried about getting assaulted; I *always* get the assault.

*EDIT* And there's more to being good at CC than just model vs. model who can kill better. What other army has a 27" assault range?

My BA army is completely mechanized. I will form a circle with my rhinos. You assault them, blow them up, out spill my Marines. My turn I shoot you and charge you. Orks are smoked.

G

But what are you assaulting? That's the other side of it. Yes, Boyz in Trukks will do a decent job against any basic troop or dedicated shooty troop for the exact reason you've described. What happens when you're trying to charge a BT Land Raider with Furious Charge-ing Lightning Claw Assault Terminators?

As to the range of the assault, Shrike Termis in a Land Raider can do 22-28" because they're mounted on the 40 mil bases. They cost 40 pts/model plus LR and Shrike, but if you're bringing Ghazzi and piles of Trukk Boyz your army size is much smaller than norm as well.

But what are you assaulting? That's the other side of it.

Orks.

What happens when you're trying to charge a BT Land Raider with Furious Charge-ing Lightning Claw Assault Terminators?

Same principle as my mech.

G

That was intended for the Dashofpepper fella who runs the Trukk Orks.

My answer to all terminators with lightning claws, scary things, power weapons, and all the other stuff that minces up my boyz is to assault them with Ghazghkull by himself, on his Waaugh! If I think I need it, I leave him attached to his Nobs, but more often than not I'll break Ghazghkull off and have him assault alone.

Sure...he goes last with his Initiative 1 powerklaw, but with his weapon skill 6 and toughness 5, you're going to need 4s to hit, and an assortment of rolls to wound. Ghaz is invulnerable to instant death, and fearless that turn (and your following turn). I'm going to be rolling 2+ invulnerable saves against your few attacks, and you're going to be rolling...5+ invulnerable saves against my 7 Strength 10 powerklaw attacks? I'll win every time. =p

I want to see big Ghaz versus Abby in a Friday evening cage match.

G

Dashofpepper wrote:My answer to all terminators with lightning claws, scary things, power weapons, and all the other stuff that minces up my boyz is to assault them with Ghazghkull by himself, on his Waaugh! If I think I need it, I leave him attached to his Nobs, but more often than not I'll break Ghazghkull off and have him assault alone.

Sure...he goes last with his Initiative 1 powerklaw, but with his weapon skill 6 and toughness 5, you're going to need 4s to hit, and an assortment of rolls to wound. Ghaz is invulnerable to instant death, and fearless that turn (and your following turn). I'm going to be rolling 2+ invulnerable saves against your few attacks, and you're going to be rolling...5+ invulnerable saves against my 7 Strength 10 powerklaw attacks? I'll win every time. =p

That is how i use him. I break him off and charge. If it is necessary, I will charge with the nobs the next turn, but it rarely is.

Orkz is the fightenist.

All of the typing in the world won't help you when 180 boys and ghaz are headed your way.

1. Stealer Shock
2. Demons
3. Drop pod Death Company with bolters.