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Italics: The psyker projects forth the fire in his soul in a searing ball of white flame, igniting the very air around him, incinerating any who come to close.

Rules of the power: Holocaust is a psychic power that may be used in the Daemonhunters assault phase, at effective initiative of 1. If the psychic test is passed place the Ordnance template anywhere in contact with the psyker,,,,, the next section talks about the str and effect. Last line Any and all wounds inflicted by this power count towards the combat results.

No were in the wording does it say that you can not simply just use the power with out being in hth. It just states that the effect is at initiative 1 and all wounds inflicted count towards the combat result. So in effect you could drive up and holocaust out the side of the rhino?


Little incinerating out the door followed up with a touch of holocaust.....

Faq and a search turned up nothing about the topic so I started one.

Going by the RAW I see no issue with using Holocaust in the Assault phase outside of CC. So yeah, you could flamer out of a firepont in the shooting phase and than drop a littl Holocaust and really mess up a Shoota Boyz mob's day.

Tarval wrote:Italics: The psyker projects forth the fire in his soul in a searing ball of white flame, igniting the very air around him, incinerating any who come to close.

Rules of the power: Holocaust is a psychic power that may be used in the Daemonhunters assault phase, at effective initiative of 1. If the psychic test is passed place the Ordnance template anywhere in contact with the psyker,,,,, the next section talks about the str and effect. Last line Any and all wounds inflicted by this power count towards the combat results.

No were in the wording does it say that you can not simply just use the power with out being in hth. It just states that the effect is at initiative 1 and all wounds inflicted count towards the combat result. So in effect you could drive up and holocaust out the side of the rhino?


Little incinerating out the door followed up with a touch of holocaust.....

Faq and a search turned up nothing about the topic so I started one.

The problem is that "initiative 1" thing. If you're not in assault, you don't have an initiative step to do things at.

Can you act in the assault phase outside of hand to hand? Page 33 of the rulebook seems to indicate that you need to be in close combat to go at an initiative order.

So, RAW, you would need to be going at an initiative order to use the power, and would thusly need to be in CC/HTH.

Going to have to do a bit of reading on what you guys dug up for me. Thanks

Lets keep talking though and see if we can find the final answer....

Centurian99 wrote:The problem is that "initiative 1" thing. If you're not in assault, you don't have an initiative step to do things at.

I was thinking the same thing as well...

btw, that's essentially the argument that carried the day during INAT review. I was originally for allowing it, but not actually having an initiative step convinced me otherwise.

It sounds like the Initiative thing is for IF you are in CC, not if and only if.

So it sounds like you can use it either way.

The 5" marker only has to be touching the model is killer. You could effectively put it in front of him and it would be like something out of Dragonball Z.


Edited for clarification.

AffliKtion wrote:It sounds like the Initiative thing is for IF you are in CC, not if and only if.

I see nothing that supports your interpretation that it only strikes at Initiative 1 if you're in close combat. As written, it will always stike at an Intiative of 1, regardless.

Ghaz wrote:

AffliKtion wrote:It sounds like the Initiative thing is for IF you are in CC, not if and only if.

I see nothing that supports your interpretation that it only strikes at Initiative 1 if you're in close combat. As written, it will always stike at an Intiative of 1, regardless.

That's not the issue. The issue is if you can use this in the assault phase while being in CC or not. Thats the reasoning behind my IF and IFF statements. There's nothing explicitly saying he can use it out of CC, but there's also nothing saying he can't either.

If he's not in CC, then theres no reason for Initiative.

Reading the rules, it would seem that you can't use it from a transport because of the text "place the ordance template in contact with the psyker". Placing the template in contact with the psyker's transport doesn't seem to be satisfy that requirement, since the power isn't really a shooting attack (no scatter, can hit friend and foe, etc.)

solkan wrote:Reading the rules, it would seem that you can't use it from a transport because of the text "place the ordance template in contact with the psyker". Placing the template in contact with the psyker's transport doesn't seem to be satisfy that requirement, since the power isn't really a shooting attack (no scatter, can hit friend and foe, etc.)

I agree with this, but I still stand on using it out of CC. Now I'm wondering if you would be able to use it after you disembark if the transport has moved if you can use it w/o being in CC?

AffliKtion wrote:That's not the issue. The issue is if you can use this in the assault phase while being in CC or not. Thats the reasoning behind my IF and IFF statements. There's nothing explicitly saying he can use it out of CC, but there's also nothing saying he can't either.

If he's not in CC, then theres no reason for Initiative.

Except you can't ignore the fact that it always goes at an Intiative of 1. You can't conveniently ignore that fact because it doesn't fit your views. So how can it go at an Intiative of 1 if you're not engaged in close combat?

Ghaz wrote:

AffliKtion wrote:That's not the issue. The issue is if you can use this in the assault phase while being in CC or not. Thats the reasoning behind my IF and IFF statements. There's nothing explicitly saying he can use it out of CC, but there's also nothing saying he can't either.

If he's not in CC, then theres no reason for Initiative.

Except you can't ignore the fact that it always goes at an Intiative of 1. You can't conveniently ignore that fact because it doesn't fit your views. So how can it go at an Intiative of 1 if you're not engaged in close combat?

Can quote directly from the dex where it says ALWAYS? I don't have it and I'm going off the "" from the OP as being exact.

How can it be towards my view? I don't even field the model.

I think it just happens to be there like the Initiative of a power fist, but without having to be in CC, so it is more like a 'just in case' you ARE in CC type of initiative. There are many JIC rules in the game.

You can't get pissed at people for having a different view than you. Especially in this subforum.

Actually he can. So can you. But regardless, there's a deductive argument that you can't use holocaust unless you're involved in an assault.

P1: Holocaust goes off at Initiative 1.
P2: Only models involved in an assault get to take an action at their initiative step during the assault phase.
Conclusion: You can't use holocaust unless you're in an assault.

I looked through p33 for anything that remotely says that you MUST be in CC to preform action at an Initiative.
The I1 thing and ALWAYS refers to something that would otherwise boot the I to higher than t, FC for example or as it was when the codex was written, Charging someone in cover.

IMO the RAI would say no though Rule through Omission would say yes. I can find no clear rule that says a model MUST be involved in an Assault to take actions that would be settled at an Initiative value.
Should someone quote me a rule i will recant.

Sorry I don't see a problem its a Psychic power that's used in the 'Daemon Hunters Assault phase' at initiative 1.

How does it work (IMO)

~Holocaust while in CC
~You play the combat till it gets to initiative 1 and then
~You do a psychic test for Holocaust.
~If you pass. Place the Large Blast in contact with x
~All models (friend or foe) under the template take a strength 5 hit (partials on a 4+) (or if you fail the test every one in X's unit take a strength 5 hit).
~wounds .
~saves.

~Holocaust while not in CC
~Ignore the initiative (your still hitting at it but there's nothing else happening)
~psychic test
~hit
~wounds
~save

~Holocaust into CC
~Pick a Combat
~You play the combat till it gets to initiative 1 and then
~You do a psychic test for Holocaust.
~If you pass. Place the Large Blast in contact with x.
~All models (friend or foe) under the template take a strength 5 hit (partials on a 4+) (or if you fail the test every one in X's unit take a strength 5 hit).
~wounds .
~saves.
~As per rules any wounds (friend or foe) count towards the combat result (so if you fail the test and it kills your unit their death boost the combat in the other guys favour)

And again, you can not ignore the Initiative just because it's convenient for your point of view. So how does it go at an Intiative of 1 when you don't use Initiative if you're not in close combat? You can not just decide to ignore it.

p 33 Assult Phasse
1) Move assaulting units (simple enough)
2) Defender React (simple enough)
3) Resolve Combats - pick a unit, fight cc - engaged modles roll to hit and wound in Initiative order opponents take saves, determine results, check moral, sweeping advance/pile in, pick next combat

I hope the above makes some since. To me the only things you can do in the assult phase are the above in that order or move (if you have eldar jetbikes, tau suits etc)

Therefore since the modle w/holocost in the op's example is not engaged in CC (did not assult or is not piled in already) therefore he can't participate in the combat so no Holocaust.

Ghaz as i said "Ignore the initiative", not because it not there but as it is the only attack happening. Its the same unit attacking with a power-fist and other weapons attacking a vehicle there is an initiative order but since there's no return damage you might as well ignore it.

Why do you think that striking at "Initiative 1" requires CC? The description in the BGB describes it as being "How alert a creature is and how quickly it reacts"

And again you can not ignore it. You've yet to explain how Intiative works in the Assault phase when you're not locked in close combat.

Very well ... i'll do my best to sway your opinoin.

Holocaust is a psychic power that is used in the "Daemon hunters Assault phase, at an effective Initiative of 1".

Effective : adequate to accomplish a purpose; producing the intended or expected result: effective teaching methods; effective steps toward peace

The word 'effective' changes things a bit since its not happening 'at an Initiative of 1' its happening 'at an effective Initiative of 1'. That give Holocaust the flexability to happen 'at an effective Initiative of 1' in close combat, into close combat and out side of close combat.

So how can a power happen in close combat? Well so long as it effectively happens at Initiative of 1 so it can be cast at a combat when it gets to effective Initiative of 1. When there is no combat is hiting at aneffective Initiative of 1.

Tri wrote:Ghaz as i said "Ignore the initiative", not because it not there but as it is the only attack happening. Its the same unit attacking with a power-fist and other weapons attacking a vehicle there is an initiative order but since there's no return damage you might as well ignore it.

Why do you think that striking at "Initiative 1" requires CC? The description in the BGB describes it as being "How alert a creature is and how quickly it reacts"

Because this is a permissive ruleset. The only time a model is given explicit permission to act at any initiative is when it is in close combat.

It acts at an effective initiative of 1. Any power that is close-combat only says so.

The rules for psychic powers in transports likely mean that you may place the template so that it touches the vehicle occupied by that model (touching the edge or covering the vehicle makes no difference, it won't be strong enough to hurt the vehicle).

It's a silly, archaic power, that it can be used outside of combat is a side effect of its old weirdness (who isn't accustomed to these kinds of oversights, considering that Eldar and Necrons have no understanding of shooting in the dark?).

Mr.Peanut wrote:It acts at an effective initiative of 1. Any power that is close-combat only says so.

Initiative 1 only occurs in close-combat. Ergo, saying something only occurs at initiative 1 is equivalent to saying it only occurs in close-combat; just because it is more specific doesn't invalidate the general case.

Janthkin wrote:

Mr.Peanut wrote:It acts at an effective initiative of 1. Any power that is close-combat only says so.

Initiative 1 only occurs in close-combat. Ergo, saying something only occurs at initiative 1 is equivalent to saying it only occurs in close-combat; just because it is more specific doesn't invalidate the general case.

Well if we're going down the road of equivalents whats happened to word 'effective'. Its the same as me rewriting the rule to prove my point ... for example ...

Holocaust is a psychic power that may be used in the Daemonhunters' Assault phase, at an effective Initiative of 1.
...becomes ....
Holocaust is a psychic power that may be used in the Daemonhunters' Assault phase, effectively at an Initiative of 1.

clearly changing one word from its adjective form to its adverb form distort things heavily in my favour ... which is why in my previous post i left it as 'effective'.

The word 'effective' push the power out side of the normal rules if it effects a unit it will only be at an effective initiative of 1 ... So combat continues on till it reaches the magic initiative and then it can happen at an effective initiative of 1.

Janthkin wrote:

Mr.Peanut wrote:It acts at an effective initiative of 1. Any power that is close-combat only says so.

Initiative 1 only occurs in close-combat. Ergo, saying something only occurs at initiative 1 is equivalent to saying it only occurs in close-combat; just because it is more specific doesn't invalidate the general case.

Totally agree here! Effective or not effective, it is still initiative 1 and in the assault phase, i.e. only in an assault can you use this power. Hey Janthkin, is it ok if I say this one is defiantly down that road of common sense? (kinda inside joke...sorta)

So you guys are saying since my models have an initiative of 3 and yours an initiative of 4 that you always get to shoot first? Or since you have a higher initiative, I can't Jetpack away before you destroy me?

No, the initiative is there for WHEN he is IN CC, just like the Initiative for models is not used until in CC.

Now lets use an old adage by GW "think of the battle as if it were actually happening, not models on the table". What would the psyker do?

EDIT: things can happen in assault without it actually being an assault.

Tri wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

Mr.Peanut wrote:It acts at an effective initiative of 1. Any power that is close-combat only says so.

Initiative 1 only occurs in close-combat. Ergo, saying something only occurs at initiative 1 is equivalent to saying it only occurs in close-combat; just because it is more specific doesn't invalidate the general case.

Well if we're going down the road of equivalents whats happened to word 'effective'. Its the same as me rewriting the rule to prove my point ... for example ...

Holocaust is a psychic power that may be used in the Daemonhunters' Assault phase, at an effective Initiative of 1.
...becomes ....
Holocaust is a psychic power that may be used in the Daemonhunters' Assault phase, effectively at an Initiative of 1.

clearly changing one word from its adjective form to its adverb form distort things heavily in my favour ... which is why in my previous post i left it as 'effective'.

The word 'effective' push the power out side of the normal rules if it effects a unit it will only be at an effective initiative of 1 ... So combat continues on till it reaches the magic initiative and then it can happen at an effective initiative of 1.

Want to know why "effective" was there? Go dig out your 4e rulebook, and look at the rules for Frag Grenades and Assaulting a unit in cover. They didn't want I10 holocaust.

Whether it is an "effective" init 1 or just init 1 doesn't change the fact that a model not in CC does not resolve any actions at any initiative step.

AffliKtion wrote:So you guys are saying since my models have an initiative of 3 and yours an initiative of 4 that you always get to shoot first? Or since you have a higher initiative, I can't Jetpack away before you destroy me?

No, that's what you are saying when you claim that something that goes at an Intiative of 1 in the Assault phase can be used outside of close combat. We're the ones who are saying that the only time in the Assault phase you can go at an Intiative of 1 is if you are locked in close combat.