Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What if one of my other squads is involved in a close combat and the Holocaust power is used to affect this combat? In other words, The Holocaust using squad itself is not locked in close combat but they are using their power to influence an on-going close combat nearby (at an effective initiative value of 1).

holden88 wrote:What if one of my other squads is involved in a close combat and the Holocaust power is used to affect this combat? In other words, The Holocaust using squad itself is not locked in close combat but they are using their power to influence an on-going close combat nearby (at an effective initiative value of 1).

As the squad itself is not in combat, it never reaches the "determine Initiative" steps and therefore can not use the power.

Ok, Janthkin, lets have a quick look for effective in the old BGB....no there no mention of an 'effective' initiative on page 39.

An a effective initiative, that is it effectively happens at 'initiative 1'.

The power is used in the assault phase. No mention is ever made about close combat. If you want to be picky then you claim that it can't be used in CC as it is not listed as working in CC ... This is a after all a permissive rule-set and nothing says it will work.

Tri wrote:Ok, Janthkin, lets have a quick look for effective in the old BGB....no there no mention of an 'effective' initiative on page 39.

An a effective initiative, that is it effectively happens at 'initiative 1'.

The power is used in the assault phase. No mention is ever made about close combat. If you want to be picky then you claim that it can't be used in CC as it is not listed as working in CC ... This is a after all a permissive rule-set and nothing says it will work.

Tri, what Ghaz, Janthkin and I are arguing is that because it has an iniative value, the model using it must be in CC because that is the only time Iniative is used. I am not sure if Iniative is used at any point besides in CC.

i agree that Initiative is irrelevant unless you are in Close Combat. But for some thing to have an Initiative isn't the same as being in CC. SM are Initiative 4 wether or not they are are in CC.

What you (Ghaz, Janthkin, Casper) ask is that i show a how an initiative value is used out side of Close combat.
Answer it isn't used (except may be in rare Initiative tests). This does not stop the power being use-able. If the power effects a close combat it would effect them at Initiative 1. If a unit is out side of close combat it would still hit them at Initiative 1 which would happen right then.

What i ask is where it say that the model (edit),rule or weapon (edit) must be in CC to have Initiative value?

And again, you can't claim that the Intiative is irrelevant. You can't decide to ignore it at your whim because it's convenient to your point of view. The Initiative tells you when you can use the power in the Assault phase. So once again, where other than in close combat in the Assault phase can you go at an Intiative of 1? If you can't find a place outside of close combat where you go at an Intiative of 1, then you can't use Holocaust because it only goes at an Intiative of 1 and not whenever you feel like using it.

Platuan4th wrote:As the squad itself is not in combat, it never reaches the "determine Initiative" steps and therefore can not use the power.

What you are saying is that because the power has an initiative rating associated with it, it can only be used if the unit in question is engaged in close combat.

What I think other people are putting forth is that the power has an initiative value assigned to it because since it it used during the assault phase, we need to know at what effective initiative value to resolve the power, just in case it has an impact on an ongoing close combat. This is regardless of if the unit using this power is engaged in close combat or not. So it's like a shooting attack, with a limited range that goes off in the assualt phase. This power can be activated at any time unless it is going to hit models engaged in close combat, in which case it must wait and resolve its attack at Initiative step 1 when that combat resolves.

Another interpertation I see as being valid is that if your Daemonhunter unit is not locked in combat then you can use the Holocaust power at any time (except in the middle of a close combat being resolved) and will go off right then and there and do whatever damage that it may. However, if the Grey Knight unit is locked in combat itself then it may still use the power but it must do so at Initiative step 1 when its close combat resolves. So it's like a shooting attack that can be used in the assault phase. However, unlike most shooting attacks this power can still be used if the squad is locked in close combat (but it must do so at Initiaitve step 1).

Honestly, I'm still not too sure how I feel about all this. I do play Grey Knights and when I was new and didn't know what I was doing I did use the power both in and out of combat (on the advice of other gamers). My mind keeps switching back and forth over what is legal here. In future, I'll probaly only use it when my Grey Knights are locked in combat as this is the least abusive interpertation of the rules.

If someone tried that crap on me I'd either laugh in their face of punch it and claim I'm trying to knock the 'stupid bug' off that is clearly biting them. I love it when people try to argue something by omitting parts of the rules. That doesn't make a good argument and makes it seem as if someone is clearly trying to break a rule for some small perceived advantage.

@(half the people in this thread)
We are not tiring to OMIT the Effective I of 1. We are arguing that it may be done @I1 though that may also be done if they are NOT in CC. I have looked though the book can i still cant find any ruling that states that you must be in CC to use anything @ an I. By convention we do not consider I outside of CC because nothing else (as far as Im aware) could hit or effect them in the assault phase. We are not arguing that the whole of the game is does at each unit I because well, that's absurd.. If its your turn the opponent could not act thus react. Again, I challenge someone to quote me a Page# and line# that states something with the clear effect to "Only models in CC may at I. You must be in CC to at at I."

In any tournament I run, I'd say that the power can't be used except in CC.

(And this comes from someone with 6k of GK's and 5 squads of termies.)

You guys are reaching for something that isn't there, and trying to come up some new, cheesy combo. No drive by Holocaust. This isn't yu-gi-oh.

Not just initiative, but it also mentions combat resolution.

Why would a power specifically state that it strikes at initiative 1 and counts towards combat resolution unless it was an assault power? Both of those things only happen in close combat.

Dashofpepper wrote:Not just initiative, but it also mentions combat resolution.

Why would a power specifically state that it strikes at initiative 1 and counts towards combat resolution unless it was an assault power? Both of those things only happen in close combat.

Right back at you ... what would happen if you used this power on a CC which you weren't in ... well it 'counts towards combat resolution'. All unsaved wounds that happen in CC counts towards combat resolution any way (unless they have a rule stating they don't)

holden88 wrote:Another interpertation I see as being valid is that if your Daemonhunter unit is not locked in combat then you can use the Holocaust power at any time (except in the middle of a close combat being resolved) and will go off right then and there and do whatever damage that it may. However, if the Grey Knight unit is locked in combat itself then it may still use the power but it must do so at Initiative step 1 when its close combat resolves. So it's like a shooting attack that can be used in the assault phase. However, unlike most shooting attacks this power can still be used if the squad is locked in close combat (but it must do so at Initiaitve step 1).

Except it's NOT a shooting attack that can be used in CC, it's more like a CC Psychic Attack. If it could be used outside of combat, the power would say that it could be used as such instead of firing a weapon, like all Psychic Shooting Attacks(which, incidentally, are in the main rules). The only rules presented for the power are those rules that allow you to use it in CC. In fact, aside from Eldar Jetbikes and Tau Jet Packs(which specifically state they may be used), there are no rules allowing you to do anything in the CC Phase other than actually participating in CC and Charging. As a permissive rules set, unless the power or main rules say you can do it, you can't . As nothing within the given rules of Holocaust allow you to use it when not in combat, you can't use it outside of combat, and therefore is not a valid interpretation.

Ok a request then my rebuttle.

Could somebody list word for word Holocaust power, the OP left out a few important details (determining whos hit being key).

I have listed in a previous post what can be done in the assult phase which is page 33.

New evidence:

p 34 Who can fight 2nd bullet point "Models withing 2" of at least 1 model in their unit that is in base contact with any enemy models", paragraph after - "all engaged models will fight in this turns' assult phase with etier full number of attacks and use any spepcial close compat attacks they have. Any models left unengaged because they are too far from an enemy model cant attack this turn, however they still can be killed by the enemy, and the result of the combat will still affect them.

p 40 2nd paragraph - while blast markers and templates may not be deliberately placed such that they cover any models locked in combat, they may end up there areter scattering and will hit any modles they touch (friend and foes)

My point:

The model using holocaust is not engaged in CC and therefore can't participate in that combat (our influence its results). Since Holocaust places a blast marker of some sort it can't delibratly be placed into an ongoing CC.

@ psf, Tri and others - where in the rules does it say you can do other things in the assult phase besides what is on page 33 (only thing i can think of are tau suits moving, and eldar jetbikes) I would ask that you too find page numbers to prove you point instead of blankly arguing against ours...

What can be done in the Assault phase from page 33 (|| used so this doesn't cover half a page)

Assault phase Summary
1 Move assaulting units
-Pick a unit || Declare which enemy unit its going to assault || move the assaulting unit || pick another uni and repeat the above until all assaulting units have moved.
2 Defenders react
-The opponent picks one of his units that have been assaulted || The opponent move all of the models in the unit into base contact with the enemy, or at least into position to be engaged || Pick another unit and repeat until all assaulted units have moved.
3 Resolve
-pick a combat || fight close combat. Engaged models roll to hit and wound in Initiative order. Their opponents take saving throws are required || Determine assault results. Total up wounds inflicted. The side that inflicted the most wounds overall in the combat is the winner || Loser checks morale. The loser has to pass a morale check or fall back. If the loser passes the test, go directly to the pile-in || Sweeping advances, fall back and consolidations. Units falling back from close combat must test to see if they successfully break off, if they fail they are destroyed. The winners may then consolidate their position || Pile-in! if units are still locked in close combat, then any models not engaged are moved towards the enemy to continue the fight next turn || Pick another combat and repeat until all combats have been resolved.

Why have i quoted this? Well if you look through all the rules there are no points at which you can use a Psychic power or move an eldar jetbike. These rules come from other places in the BGB and codexes (in the case of psychic powers).

page 40 Shooting into & out of Close Combat. We're not shooting, we're using a psychic power with rules that over ride this completely ... otherwise you would never be able to use the power at all ...

Page 35 Who can fight ... I'm not fighting I'm using a psychic power that happens in the assault phase

Tri wrote:What can be done in the Assault phase from page 33 (|| used so this doesn't cover half a page)

Assault phase Summary
1 Move assaulting units
-Pick a unit || Declare which enemy unit its going to assault || move the assaulting unit || pick another uni and repeat the above until all assaulting units have moved.
2 Defenders react
-The opponent picks one of his units that have been assaulted || The opponent move all of the models in the unit into base contact with the enemy, or at least into position to be engaged || Pick another unit and repeat until all assaulted units have moved.
3 Resolve
-pick a combat || fight close combat. Engaged models roll to hit and wound in Initiative order. Their opponents take saving throws are required || Determine assault results. Total up wounds inflicted. The side that inflicted the most wounds overall in the combat is the winner || Loser checks morale. The loser has to pass a morale check or fall back. If the loser passes the test, go directly to the pile-in || Sweeping advances, fall back and consolidations. Units falling back from close combat must test to see if they successfully break off, if they fail they are destroyed. The winners may then consolidate their position || Pile-in! if units are still locked in close combat, then any models not engaged are moved towards the enemy to continue the fight next turn || Pick another combat and repeat until all combats have been resolved.

Why have i quoted this? Well if you look through all the rules there are no points at which you can use a Psychic power or move an eldar jetbike. These rules come from other places in the BGB and codexes (in the case of psychic powers).

page 40 Shooting into & out of Close Combat. We're not shooting, we're using a psychic power with rules that over ride this completely ... otherwise you would never be able to use the power at all ...

Page 35 Who can fight ... I'm not fighting I'm using a psychic power that happens in the assault phase

Eldar Jetbikes (and Tau jetpacks) include language that specifically allows them to act in the assault phase without being in close combat.

There is nothing in the Holocaust description comparable to the explicit permission given to Eldar jetbikes. All it says is "effective initiative 1." You just quoted the ONLY place that initiative order is utilized - as part of Resolving a close combat.

Bat Manuel wrote:If someone tried that crap on me I'd either laugh in their face of punch it and claim I'm trying to knock the 'stupid bug' off that is clearly biting them. I love it when people try to argue something by omitting parts of the rules. That doesn't make a good argument and makes it seem as if someone is clearly trying to break a rule for some small perceived advantage.

mikhaila wrote:In any tournament I run, I'd say that the power can't be used except in CC.

(And this comes from someone with 6k of GK's and 5 squads of termies.)

You guys are reaching for something that isn't there, and trying to come up some new, cheesy combo. No drive by Holocaust. This isn't yu-gi-oh.

Why do people always assume that when someone is trying to get to the bottom of what exatctly the rules say, they are automatically power gaming and trying to come up with some cheezy combo to cheaply gain an advantage?

When I first started playing my Grey Knights I really didn't know how to play the army and didn't know the ins and outs of the codex yet. I recieved help from many fine Grey Knight players (both in person and online). When it came to the Holocaust power I had originally assumed that it was used exclusively in close combat, however it was illustrated to me that I could use it outside of close combat also, so I began to do so. These other players weren't cheap or looking for an unfair advantage they just honestly thought this was the correct way to play it (so did I). It's only by going back now and looking closely that I believe that the power should only be used in close combat (but I guess most people missed the part where I said I would game it this way from now on).

However, I can see some validity to the argument that it may be used outside of close combat. I don't think it is so black and white and obviously spelled out. To me this is a grey area in the Daemonhunters codex. When something is in a grey area in the rules, I will take the least powerful and cheezy option for my own army, as I find this is most fair to my opponent.

If I were playing someone and they tried to play it this way I would not jump the gun and automatically assume that they were trying to break a rule to gain and unfair advantage. You gotta take people one at a time and judge each case as it comes. Some people just want to make sure they are playing correctly.

Casper wrote:Since Holocaust places a blast marker of some sort it can't delibratly be placed into an ongoing CC.

Here I disagree. Even assuming that you can only use the power if your squad is locked in close combat (which I believe is the intention of the rules), I still think that you can place the blast marker so that it may hit models that are involved in a completely different close combat nearby. In other words I think it is entirely legal that the blast template may over-extend beyond the current close combat and hit bystander models be they friend, foe and/or models otherwise engaged in other close combats (which may or may not have been resolved already this turn). The rules that prohibit you from placing blast markers on models that are engaged in close combat and/or friendly models are shooting rules which do not apply to the use of this power. Of course, if you cause wounds into another close combat that has yet to be resolved this turn I wouldn't count those wounds towards that eventual close combat resolution. I would simply remove the models as casualties.

Why do people keep assuming that were ignoring the Initiative, when it simply ISNT BEING USED AT THE TIME OF THE Psyker's ATTACK? That's like saying were ignoring WS in the shooting phase. WRONG. Its just not being used at the time.

People keep arguing that nowhere in there does it explicitly say that the attack can be used outside of CC, but NOWHERE IN THERE does it say that we CANT use outside of CC as well. The door goes both ways.

It's a statline for resolving who goes first in CC, it doesn't mean is HAS to be used in CC.

Once again, were not IGNORING the stat, its simply not being used at the time.

the final word:

When does someone act in initiative? When they are in the assault phase. (Page 33). Who can fight in the assault phase? Models locked in close combat and are within 2" of the assault.

Who cannot act in in the assault phase? People who do not meet this criteria.

Would you like to use Holocaust? Get into hand to hand.

Some things don't have to be FAQed as the rules are fairly clear about them. (Not directed at you, Holden).

AffliKtion wrote:Why do people keep assuming that were ignoring the Initiative, when it simply ISNT BEING USED AT THE TIME OF THE Psyker's ATTACK? That's like saying were ignoring WS in the shooting phase. WRONG. Its just not being used at the time.

People keep arguing that nowhere in there does it explicitly say that the attack can be used outside of CC, but NOWHERE IN THERE does it say that we CANT use outside of CC as well. The door goes both ways.

It's a statline for resolving who goes first in CC, it doesn't mean is HAS to be used in CC.

Once again, were not IGNORING the stat, its simply not being used at the time.

What you are ignoring is the fact that the rules only state how the power can be used in Combat and has no rules on how it can be used outside of Combat. As the power lacks rules to be used outside of Combat, it can't be used outside of Combat.

Also, by saying you can use it other than using it at Initiative 1(which ONLY happens in Combat) IS ignoring the Initiative 1. The only rules we have to use are how we use it at Initiative 1. The only time anything uses Initiative is regarding to either fighting in or running away from Combat. Having ONLY a statline for Combat means it HAS to be used in combat and no where else.

Anything else doesn't follow the rules we are actually given for both the game and the power and is put in by YOU the player.

The only thing the rules say is if a unit is 'locked' then any 'engaged' models must fight.

There's nothing stopping any one from doing thing in the assault phase there just isn't any thing most models can do. So they just sit there. Elder jet bike and any one with a Jet pack may make a 6" move in there assault phase. 'Word of the emperor' can be used at the start of the enemy assault phase.

And the rule cover what needs to be done inside and out side of close combat. The power will happen at I1 when ever that would be for the effected models. Place the blast template touching the psyker, models fully cover are hit, any partials on a 4+. Wounds cause this way are added to the combat resolution.

Platuan4th wrote:

What you are ignoring is the fact that the rules only state how the power can be used in Combat and has no rules on how it can be used outside of Combat. As the power lacks rules to be used outside of Combat, it can't be used outside of Combat.

Also, by saying you can use it other than using it at Initiative 1(which ONLY happens in Combat) IS ignoring the Initiative 1. The only rules we have to use are how we use it at Initiative 1. The only time anything uses Initiative is regarding to either fighting in or running away from Combat. Having ONLY a statline for Combat means it HAS to be used in combat and no where else.

Anything else doesn't follow the rules we are actually given for both the game and the power and is put in by YOU the player.

Nowhere in there does it say Combat. It says Assault Phase. How does it lack rules to be used outside of CC? It's a large blast template placed anywhere on the psyker's base... The only thing it lacks is the clarification of how and when the power can be used, which is why were debating!

EDIT: Don't forget Hit and Run, Tri!

AffliKtion wrote:Nowhere in there does it say Combat. It says Assault Phase. How does it lack rules to be used outside of CC? It's a large blast template placed anywhere on the psyker's base... The only thing it lacks is the clarification of how and when the power can be used, which is why were debating!

EDIT: Don't forget Hit and Run, Tri!

Again, the merit that it has to be used at Initiative 1(which can only happen in Combat) means it can only be used it Combat. Saying anything else ignores the rule's Initiative 1 statement and therefore ignores the rules concerning Assault Phase steps.

It lacks rules for being used outside of Combat by not having anywhere in its description "May be used when not in Combat" or something similar. Again, this game is a PERMISSIVE rules set. If it doesn't explicitly say you can, then you can't.

Platuan4th wrote:

AffliKtion wrote:Nowhere in there does it say Combat. It says Assault Phase. How does it lack rules to be used outside of CC? It's a large blast template placed anywhere on the psyker's base... The only thing it lacks is the clarification of how and when the power can be used, which is why were debating!

EDIT: Don't forget Hit and Run, Tri!

Again, the merit that it has to be used at Initiative 1(which can only happen in Combat) means it can only be used it Combat. Saying anything else ignores the rule's Initiative 1 statement and therefore ignores the rules concerning Assault Phase steps.

It lacks rules for being used outside of Combat by not having anywhere in its description "May be used when not in Combat" or something similar. Again, this game is a PERMISSIVE rules set. If it doesn't explicitly say you can, then you can't.

It lacks rules for being used inside of Combat by not having anywhere in its description "May be used when in Combat" or something similar. Again, this game is a PERMISSIVE rules set. If it doesn't explicitly say you can, then you can't. ^_^

AffliKtion wrote:Why do people keep assuming that were ignoring the Initiative, when it simply ISNT BEING USED AT THE TIME OF THE Psyker's ATTACK?

Because you must always use the Intiative. Do the rules say that you only use the Intiative of 1 when it applies? No. You're making up a rule that allows you to ignore the Initiative when it's convenient for your point of view. Holocaust is always at an Intiative of 1 and can only be used when you can apply that Intiative. You have no rules that allow you to ignore the fact that it goes at an Intiative of 1 and you have no rules that say the Intiative only matters when it's being used. None whatsoever. So since you must use the Intiative of 1, how does it work when you're not engaged in close combat? The answer is that it doesn't.

There are a few Grey Knight players at my FLGS and I've never seen anyone try pulling off using holocaust outside of CC. I would have to argue against it pretty hard if someone tried doing it to me. If I could not sway that person's opinion I'd suggest rolling for it to keep the game going and then probably not play that person again.

It seems like a really big stretch to use this CC psychic power as a second shooting attack.

OK to sum up the arguments

For using it Only in close combat

Centurian99 wrote:
P1: Holocaust goes off at Initiative 1.
P2: Only models involved in an assault get to take an action at their initiative step during the assault phase.
Conclusion: You can't use holocaust unless you're in an assault.

For using it at any point in the assault phase

P1: holocaust happens 'at an effective Initiative 1' (=/= 'at Initiative 1' )
P2:Though only models involved in an assault get to take an action at their initiative; this power effectively happens at Initiative 1. So when or where ever this power is used it will only ever happen at Initiative 1.

Since models generally get to attack in both their own and the opponents assault phase, does it then mean that you can use Holocaust in your opponents Assault phase? Before he moves his assaulters maybe? Hitting those jetbikes before they have a chance to move away or removing half of that ork mob coming at you? How about using the power at the start of the Assault phase before any combats are resoved, just to bypass that pesky init 1 limitation?

Since you think the ability can be used outside the initiative steps all these other situations seem to follow. It's a big can of worms, I can't see the point of trying to open it.

Actually, Holocaust specifically states that it can only be used in the DH assault phase.

The way I see it is that being used at I1 means that if there is a combat and the Holocaust user is not in combat that all other involved in CC do thier combat and then the Holocaust happens the same time Power Fist and the like so that casualties have been already removed from I2 attacks and higher already. I1 means when you resolve the attack in the Assault PHASE.