Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This is a compilatioin of all the changes I thought I needed to make from my last tournament where I got my A** kicked for not knowing my armies weaknesses and not being able to compensate for it.

So here it is.

HQ
Pedro Kantor 175

Elites
5 assault terminaters- 4 thunder hammers 1 lightning claw 200
Land raider redeemer 240

5 sternguard- 2 las cannons 155
rhino 35

Troops
10 marines- missile launcher melta gun 175
rhino

10 marines- power weapon flamer multimelta 185

Fast
2 speeders- typhoon missile launcher multimelta 200

2 speeders- typhoon missile launcher multimelta 200

2 speeders- typhoon missile launcher multimelta 200

Heavy
Land raider redeemer 240

This comes out to 2040 now there a lot of ways to bring that down to 2000 and IMO the most viable option is drop all the multi meltas from the speeders and replace them with heavy bolters. Then add 3 combi meltas to the sternguard.

What do you thinkof this one?

yermom wrote:This is a compilatioin of all the changes I thought I needed to make from my last tournament where I got my A** kicked for not knowing my armies weaknesses and not being able to compensate for it.

So here it is.

HQ
Pedro Kantor 175

Elites
5 assault terminaters- 4 thunder hammers 1 lightning claw 200
Land raider redeemer 240

5 sternguard- 2 las cannons 155
rhino 35

Troops
10 marines- missile launcher melta gun 175
razorback 40

10 marines- power weapon flamer multimelta 185

Fast
2 speeders- typhoon missile launcher multimelta 200

2 speeders- typhoon missile launcher multimelta 200

2 speeders- typhoon missile launcher multimelta 200

Heavy
Land raider redeemer 240

This comes out to 2045 now there a lot of ways to bring that down to 2000 and IMO the most viable option is drop all the multi meltas from the speeders and replace them with heavy bolters. Then add 3 combi meltas to the sternguard.

What do you thinkof this one?

The Sternguard seem like a support unit here, more like a Devastator unit then a Sternguard unit...I'd give their rhino to the Tactical squad on foot who will better benefit from it. Where is Kantor going?

Dropping Those Multi-melta's is a BAD idea. You don't have the anti-tank firepower to be doing something as stupid as dropping your only mobile anti-tank and plonking 3 one shot melta's on a unit we've already realised is better sitting at the back of the table, not moving and shooting those twin lascannons at anything that looks scary. If i were to play this list, I'd drop the Razorback, replace it witha rhino, drop 2 Multi-melta's off the Speeders ... you know what, why do you have Kantor? Sure those 5 Sternguard are scoring units but apart from camping on a home-deployment objective they aren't doing anything without wasting half the squad. Drop Kantor, get a cheaper character. Re-think the role you want for the Sternguard. Also is that 2 Land Raider Reedeemers or 1 in the list?

Cheers,

Auretious Taak.

As your topic states are you looking for army suggestions that probably beat yours?
I think your list could be beaten by a very simple ork army:

HQ: about 300 points
Warboss
Mek with kff

Troops: about 700
3x 12 boys with truck and power klaw nob
1x 20 boys on Battlewagon (zzap gun, a few upgrades) and power klaw nob

Elite: about 1000
2x 10x Nobz on Battlewagon (zzap gun, a few upgrades) with painboy and 5 powerklaws, banners etc, cyborg bodies

Mek and Warboss attached to the one of the Nobz wagons.
I wonder how you would counter these guys with your list, what strategy you would employ.
Cheers!

Only 31 marines; not sure if that's a good idea. 600 pts tied up in three units of speeders that can each be taken out with one round of bolter fire and immobilized speeders count as destroyed when they're in a squad. I agree with keeping the MMs; AT is always good. Pedro could probably go though as he won't be doing very much for this list. Aside from the termies assault is almost non-existant. With only 31 marines if somebody gets past the termies and hits your ground pounders you're going to be in trouble.,
On the plus side with all those missile launchers you have both AT and anti-horde and versitility is always a good thing. Also I believe that you can never go wrong with sternguard. Best thing that I can say is try it out a few times and see how you like it. Good luck. Let us know how it play tests.

At 2K, what happens when your speeders run up against 3 squads of Lootas?

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:At 2K, what happens when your speeders run up against 3 squads of Lootas?

My thoughts exactly. There are multiple ork builds that would own your list, and orks are prolific right now.

You would kill a lot of orks, but when they get to you (and they will) you are in trouble.

Im guessing he put "good luck beating this one" just so people would reply.

People on here only tend to reply if theres some sort of inflammatory statement in the title.

And its working isnt it?

two small scoring units in 2000 points? As sometimes happens in chess, you could play for a draw.

Small scoring units? Those tacticals are max size

Also, keep in mind his sternguard (all 5 of them, I know) score as well with Pedro

olympia wrote:two small scoring units in 2000 points? As sometimes happens in chess, you could play for a draw.

Actually, when playing Black and thus going second, you ALWAYS play for the draw initially.

I didn't count the troops initially, seriously MOAR MEN!

Auretious Taak.

yermom wrote:
2 speeders- typhoon missile launcher multimelta 200

2 speeders- typhoon missile launcher multimelta 200

2 speeders- typhoon missile launcher multimelta 200
What do you thinkof this one?

Yay! 600 pts and 3 easy KP!! In my experience with the 5ed codex, landspeeders are overcosted and too easy to bring down for KP.. If it weren't for the KP system, I'd still use mine as cheap suicide units with double multi-meltas, but like it was previously stated Lootas and similar high volume medium strength weapons would gobble them..

Two scoring units @ 2k is just bad. 4 combat squads will just die soo hard to all those plamsa cannon eqiv's that can be fielded at that level, as will that weeny sternguard unit.

What if there are Loads of Lootas shooting at your speeders... well really they should have h.flamers so they can fast-move, gain a 4+ cover save (how many hits from 15 lootas.. D3= 2. 30 shots. 10 hit. 5 penerate. 2.5 save. Roughly? Good job your using three seperate speeder sqauds) then those lootas get flamered to death, no armor, no cover. wounds on 3's (or 2's?) and will be running away fairly quickly there-after.

I.e use the multi-task-ability of the units that can actually multi-task!

A missile launcher & h.bolter make more sense.. but a 24" MM coupled with a 48" heavy 2 rocket launcher, again seems unwise.

I approve of the mix of termies there. I think pedro (unless you purely like the Stubborn USR afforded by him) is not home here.

It doesn't have Lysander. It can now lose.

Next!

I don't like the Speeders. AV10 blows up fast, immoblized is a kill in a squadron and you can't shoot krak missles and the multimelta. 600 pts is alot to be spending on speeders that get smoked really fast and are hard to hide.

I would go with 2x2 multimelta attack bikes for 200 pts for anti tank and then use the other 400 points to buy some more troops and maybe some vindicators or ironclads with heavy flamers for anti horde.

I would put the trops in a regular land raider instead of a redeemer for las cannons for more anti tank and anti monsterous creature

Okay not even 24 hours and 11 replies... wow.

Anyway i'll tackle these in order skipping over redundancies.

The 10 man tactical squad is not on foot they hop in the raider for scoring land raider syndrome and not to metion that on the charge they can put out a crap load of damage if they're in Pedro's bubble.


9 bolt pistol shots 6 hit 3 wound 1 dead MEQ 3 dead orks
1 flamer hitting 6 models 3 wound 1 dead MEQ 3 dead orks
27 marine attacks 13.5 hits 6.75 wounds 2 dead MEQ's 7 dead orks
5 power weapon attacks 2.5 hit 1.25 wound 1 dead MEQ 1 dead ork.
Total- 5 dead MEQ's and 14 dead orks not bad for a unit who's there just to capture an objective.

I was thinking today about ehy there's a razorback and a rhino would be more profitable.

Pedro will chill with the combat squaded tactical that are in the rhino.

Why do the sterns have to get out of their rhino? 2 fire points 2 las cannons mobility and protection... yes please.

You're right about the multi meltas on the speeders I think i'll keep them around.

There are indeed 2 land raiders in the list.

Umm ma_meister how does my list lose to that list? krak missile the trukks first turn. Multimelta the battle wagons 2nd turn. Burn them with the 2 redeemers and charge with the termies. Not to mention speeders will instant kill the nobs.

31 marines... so what like they're going to die anytime soon with 2 redeemers charging full speed at you.

6 speeders cost 600 points! OMG! 3 ironclads in drop pods cost about the same and my 6 speeders would kill all of that simply by being deployed in reserve denying him the first strike but, they seem to be accepted as a competitive list.

Lootas well 1st of all the speeders aren't the list and if the ork player has 45 lootas what's he going to do to my 2 redeemers. My speeders can pump out 12 blast templates a turn assuming 3 orks/template 36 orks 18 dead if they're not in cover thats 1 squad down before they even shoot.

Gut admittedly they would be tough and, I would have to rely on my redeemers/termies/tactical to kill them.

How would orks "get to me" this is not a gunline this is actually a VERY mobile army and can easily outrun orks and shoot them to the ground if they don't have 45 lootas and if they do they'renot trying to charge.

31 sounds small and, it is but, what would more bodies do for me?

They way i've worked scoring units is thus. After combat squads I have 4 5man MEQ's that score 2 of which are in transports. And 10 marines in a land raider. And assuming the speeders exist that's 3 OBJ's my opponents not getting.

Okay think about it this way how many armies have an abundance of long ange anti tank in 5th ed? dark eldar, sisters with 3 exorcists this army and 45 loota orks. The speeders have a 48" threat range and will make anything outside of the above armies cry. 12 missile launchers and 6 multi meltas is nothing to laugh at.
Against armies that aren't the above they will have a hard time taing them down.

On another note i'm aware that most people believe that the meta game has changed to short ranged firepower and weapons that forhoe AP for multiple shots and, I agree with this 5th ed. has made this startegy much more viable. But the weakness to these armies are an abundance of long rnage fire power which is why 45 lootas, 3 exorcist sisters and dark eldar are always on the top end of tournaments.

swithching the missiles to havy flamers grants me more anti ork and I already have 2 redeemers and removes my anti TMC, nob biker, rhino spam and all of my long range fire power that would be a "no".

Pedro calls down an orbital bombardment and makes my army just as killy as orks (just not as numerous) I think he's worth it.

One big template that has the "Can only use me once" and "Always Misses" special rules make him as killy as Orks?

Why would those 45 Lootas target your transports when they can blow your only scoring units off the board? It's easy, especially if you use your Combat Squads rule. Lootas are funny like that. They make me laugh. Ha ha ha.

I was refferingto his abilty of a +1 A bubble that makes regualr marines as killy as orks.

What would Lysander do re roll my sternguards boltershots WOO HOO!

Umm because to kill my scoring units they have to get them out of the transport that they're in you know the rhinos. Funny thing about 45 lootas 15 to blow up a rhino 15 to kill whats in side and 15 to kill a rhino next turn you lose a loota squad Your Turn 15to kill what was inside and 15 to kill a rhino. 1 More loota squad gone from speeders 15 to kill what was inside and now your out of lootas.

Great use of those 625 points killing 3 rhinos 105 and 15 marines 300ish. While my speeders kill the 625 points of lootas and are still intact to kill more and contest OBJ's.

Not to mention 15 lootas rolling a 3 on d3 still doesn't statistically kill 5 marines.

Umm, Lysander can kill basically anything he touches. That re-roll for bolters is nice against Boyz and such, but he can come very close to killing Ghazghkull, which is saying a lot. Immune to Insta-Death really helps him out.

Oh, your Speeders can kill my Lootas like that, can they? One squad could (and probably would) aim for them, and cripple them for a turn. You really should see what a Crew Stunned result can do to squadrons, especially those that rely on speed.

Lootas rolling a 3 on a D3 won't kill 5 Marines, but they'll kill enough to make them take wetpants check.

Okay 45 shots at 2 speeders 15 hit 1,2 nothing 3's glance 4,5,6 pen = 5 nothings 3 glances and 7 pens so, you kill 2 speeders. Damn You still lose 1 squad to my fire power in return. If you continue to shoot 1 unit per turn at my speeders you'll hardly dent my scoring units. And that's assuming you go first. If not I win that fire fight.

Also if you win the roll to go first I can see your deployment and deploy 49-60 inches away from the lootas just to get first strike since part of my points go into mobility while your lootas get none.

OH NO a LD test for my LD 9 space marines and if they fail they auto regroup in 2 phases OH NO what will I do? Maybe if I wasn't marines that would mean something.

Yermon its very easy to play the meta-game arguing this that and the other.

But youve got pedro giving +1 attack to a mere 20 tactical marines and 5 termies (if everything sticks together) Im assuming you wont charge in lascannon wielding sternguard. . Oh and scoring sternguard. He aint doing that much..

2.5 squads to cap objectives, at 2k is auto-fail. It just really is.

Have all of you misread the fac that there are 2 land raider redeemers full of assault terminater death running at you? You CANNOT ignore that. Then of course there are the 6 land speeders which all of you seem to have noticeed as target practice but how so if your only hooting the scoring units.

Even in a 5 OBJ game the speeders can turbo boost last turn contesting 3 OBJ's and the raider with marines claiming 1 then all I have to do is hjold my home OBJ.

And besides who's to say I can't hide any of these marines behind my 2 raiders?

Who says I cant drop-pod ironclads behind your tacticals. Who says I cant deep-strike crisis suits with fusion & plasma there instead & decimate them on the same turn? Who says I cant charge them from 24" (if im lucky, ok ) with a big bunch o' hormagaunts.. No-one.

You can do alot of things in 40k.. arguably you can do more to 20 marines as theres lots of 'ways' to go round!

6 speeders will die very fast. AV10 puts it at risk from warp-spyders (espcially as thier in sqauds of 2 thus I can score multiple pens & actually down two models at once), h.bolters.. bolters.. pulse rifles... etc. Dont expect them to live long.

2 landraiders, only one containing termies. And its only a 5man sqaud (you could fit 6)

Feels like your trying to do about three seperate things and bunching it all up into 2k.

well if he is able to do all three things it could easily confuse his foe, hit all over the board tends to keep people busy, and even with tons of models, if the player is confused..you've basically won, just hope you appeased the dice gods enough to grant you a victory, or at least some vital rolls

Like Raz said, you could fit 6 termies in there. One of those termies could be Lysander

Gee, the opponent's field must be empty if you're entire army is contesting stuff by the end of the game. You have to expect things to die, it's a fact of 40k.

I have 6 Speeders. But I have 6 Speeders. Did I mention I have 6 Speeders? I've got 6 Spe---pewpewpewcrash.

I've got one last something to say: Daemons.

I had to.

Daemons are supposed to scare me? This is how it goes. Use superior mobility to make the board a nightmare to deep strike. Redeploy and shoot. Repeat until game ends. But they have spoulgrinders and heralds and bloodcrushers! Heralds of khorne and blood crushers will never catch me. And Soulgrinders can't last a turn of speeder fire and if they shoot the speeders... well okay I see your point... lol but, if they don't or they scatter or I use my 4" unit coherency combined with my 4+ cover save and hope for the best then it'll be an easy game.

Thanks Razernous I do love your sig... (sarcasm)

lol.. Soulgrinder CAN withstand melta-fire. If its that close to get the extra D6 then its in charge range next turn. Also, as its a walker an a demon it gets to ignore shaken & stunned and its just nasty In cc (because it gets to ignore shaken & stunned)

Im demons & I get first turn. I drop a squad or two of horrors & each one halves those un-transported tacticals. Ive also got a few breath of choas demon princes (two, along with my soul grinder) and I either breath those multiple vehicles or just try and stun/stop your landraiders (glances on 4. I dont care about AV14)
Lots die. Its what demons do.

You go first.. deploy. Stuff. I do exactly the same thing. Youve got 6 little skimmers (thier not land-speeder storms remember) 2 tanks and 31 models. Ill be able to fit enough of my 1/2 deep-striking demons in/around that lot & make more space or have icons for hassel-free deployement in later turns.

If two demon princes charge two tactical squads you now can only score with a sternguard squad. As a demon prince will EAT a tactical squad.

If pedro & his funky +1 attack bubble and pfist are with them.. you now still cant score with anything as pedro will DIE horribly and the sternguard loose the ability to score.

Cool, charge the horrors/letters.. There will be atleast two 5-7ish man squads of plaguebearers, highly mobile (turn 2 deep-striking) with T5, 5++, FNP to cap objs.

Im finding it quite easy to counter argue your arguements because theres nothing really that solid about this list.

Okay first of all only 5 marines start untransported. Second I thinkk you're underestimating the power of controlling deepstrike.

Lets look at it mathematically, there are 3456 square inches in a 4 by 6 table. A speeder base is 9 square inches X 6 speeders + 4" coherency between each group of 2 speeders thats + a 14 square inch zone of don't come here around each speeder so that's 150 square inches that the enemy can't come into contact in.

That alone is enough of a no fly zone to box a daemon player into an area of the board with little to no cover. When he shows up just turbo boost away and begin the bombardment from a very safe distance.

In your above list you have soul grinders, flamers, horrors and damon princes and, i'm sure that's not the whole army so let's assume that's wave 1. That comes in if you risked the deepstrike with you rflamers just for the chance to glance my raider you ra fool. If you deepstruck far away enjoy getting shot to bits.

FYI 2 melta shots and 4 krak miissiles at a soulgrinder 3 missile hits 1 melta hit 2 missile do nothing 1 pens 1 melta in half range pens. Melta pen 3.5 + 1 = 4.5 destroyed or immobilized. Missile pen 3.5 weapon destroyed or immobilized i'm cool with it either way.

Demons aren't going to be a large issue unless they have kairos.

I require the creditz Raz!

I would be a fool for using the breath of choas power against an AV14 vehicle? Should I use it agaisnt the skimmers instead? I guess I could do both @ 2k.

Your assuming that a 1st turn demon drop wont inflict any damage to your side. Demons get to turn up & spank whatever they see. The princes are the flamers.. the actual flamers turn up later. Too fragile to turn up turn 1 IMO.

FYI aslong as a player drops more than 12" away from you, you'd have to decide which of those two weapons the speeder will fire if you want that extra penetration... But ofcourse who-ever will have obviously jumped stright next to your oh so powerful speeders. If there arent many/any troops out (5 marines will be toast versus the soulgrinder reaper cannon & phlem attack. ) then horrors can quite happily pour massed str 4 shots into the speeders to cap a few. Those horros also have a single str 8 ap 1 shot per squad aswell. The joys of AV10.

No creditz. Only Kalkalash.

I cant remember if you can start the game with units embarked in non-dedicated transports.

The fact that you sight kairos means that you really have no idea how demons work (ive got a vague understanding) as your just spouting well known power builds. Your quite mobile enough, infact, to avoid the fateweaver kairos and a gaggle of bloodcrushers.

Ill leave you be now and try reeeally hard not to respond any more. Its too easy and I feel dirty