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What do Nidzilla fear most?

The problem is that tourney level lists for 1750 and above field:

1 Winged Hive Tyrant
1 Hive Tyrant with Devourer and retinue of Tyrant Guard (TOUGH!)

3 Zoeys
2-3 swarms of Genestealers (can outflank)
2-3 swarms of little gribblies, chances are gaunts

and however many Carnifexes up to SIX of them with a mix and match of Devourers or the Big Str 10 Template weapon of death (barbed Stranger)

Highly frustrating as they are tough, have both anti horde and anti tank. How can you beat this monstrosity! Some flavours have the LD reduction ability on all Synapse creatures whilst others abuse Feeding Tendrils which gives them preferred enemy within 3"!

The str of barbed strangler is max at 8 i believe.

But i have no idea how to beat it lol.

Barbed stranglers are only max strength 8 and only have an ap5. The scatter on them can be pretty far as 'fexes only at most have a BS of 3. Saving against them, especially with marines is fairly easy.

Beat the bigger bugs with plenty of ap 1&2 weapons. Castle up and shoot the crap out of them. Try to target the Tyrants first then take out 'fexes next. As far as the smaller bugs are concerned, flamers and heavy flamers work very well or any type of pie plate (big or small) for that matter.

In assaults, the 'fexes will strike more often than not last with their low initiative, but they have high toughness. The tyrants on the other hand are a different story in HTH. They can mop through units if you let them get to you. That's why you shoot them up first.

This is my theory on bugs as I play with them and against quite often.

Daemonzilla!

Lou_Cypher wrote:Daemonzilla!

nurgle daemonzilla will crush nidzilla.
LR + TH/SS terminators are also good.
sternguard can wound on 2+.
lootas.

Nidzilla lost part of its former glory, not so strong anymore.

Plague Marine armies tend to be pretty strong against them too. T5/3+/FNP means that even a full set of devourers will only kill at most 1-2, sometimes nobody. Plasma guns and meltaguns fry Fexes and Tyrants, as do Obliterators. Lash also tends to mess with them, especially when it comes to synapse. Stealers are a bit deadlier with feeder tendrils, but still pretty much all non-rends will bounce.

Sorry the Str 10 shot I think refers to something else - I think it is two shots Str 10 and AP -?

Anyways. How it works is that the monstrous creatures trudge up the center, attacking vulnerable targets. Genestealers outflank and gaunts capture objectives.

Zoeys attack vehicles and monstrous dudes kill infantry. What happens is that a battle line gets compressed as you don't want to be hit by genestealer's on the sides! This then herds you to the middle where you get shredded by MCs...

And then you get hit by a -4LD modifier because of that psychic power nids can take

The only S10 shot in the entire Tyranid army is the single-shot Zoanthrope. Nothing they have is S10 and 2 shots. When I played with Tyranids, I found that I had the most problems with:

Land Raiders and assorted heavy tanks- Carnifexes can't catch them and if HT's go after them, they're not killing infantry, which you can be using to capture objectives.

Terminators/Anything with powerfist/powerklaw - Wounds MT's on a 2+ (3+ on a beefed Carnifex) and offers no save. Tyranids don't have invulnerable saves (except the Warp Field 6+), so power weapons hurt

Heavy Bolter/Heavy Flamer/Multilaser/etc - Volume of high strength shots. MT's can only make their 2+/3+ save so many times, and the flamers tear up 'nid troops.

I have been running a Bugzilla army for all of 5th. I can tell you the weaknesses. Here is how to beat them:

(1) Scoring Units
Tyranid scoring units are fragile, Gaunts are only bad in 2 situations, shooting and melee, (all the time) they are easy to kill. Even expensive genestealers are only W1 T4 SV4, easily killed by heavy bolters, heavy flamers, and small arms fire. Wipe out all the tyranide troop choices, ignore all the big stuff and you will win almost any objective based game by techicality. With Out Number and an objective in 12 of the tyranid side is an issue to watch out for, plan on using a tank to contest it on the last turn.

(2) Kill Carnifexes in CC
The usual Dakkafex, and the gunfex only have 2 attacks in CC, any squad with a hidden powerglove will beat them in CC eventually. It is a massive drawback. Plus they only have WS3 and I1 so sometimes they can even fall before they strike. Units that have killed several of mine: Sisters with eviscerator and invulnerable saves, Marines, Chaos Marines, Doom and Banshees, Orks boys with a Nob, and once, Dire Avengers with fortune and shimmershield. Carnifexes look intimidating but are seldom very good at close combat.

(3) Take advantage of vehicles
Outside of the flying Tyrant Tyranids are really slow. It's easy to beat them by contesting their objectives with empty transports late in the game.

(4) Use Fearless against them.
Hive Mind fearless is a vulnerability, stuborn is much better now. Fight combined melees with big bugs and little ones. Focus as many attacks as posible on the little bugs, then, the big ones have to make an armor save for every little bug their side lost the combat by. A lot of tyranid players are still making the mistake of bringing gaunts and carnifexes together. This is a rich assault target!

(5) Get those KP
Tyranid armies are average at KP, but if they brought Zoantropes be sure and kill every one, because each one is an easy KP, they are worth the 2 lascannon hits it takes to drop them and they probably are there for hive mind and or S10 shots, so you will want to kill them anyway. Also be sure to kill the units to a model, don't let a gaunt unit escape to recover and hide all game in the hive mind bubble.

(6) Avoid outflanking stealers.
Know your opponents list, if it has scuttling stealers in it, (which is common) expect them! Be sure to set up more than 18 inches away from the board edge with any tanks, and infantry units you set on the table. Alternatively, guard a flank edge completely by stringing a squad out right at the board edge to the limit of your deployment zone, this will keep the stealre unit from running into the middle of whatever else you have there. The unit may be killed in the ensuig melee if the stealers come in on the right side, but then they will be positioned for an easy wipe by shooting.

(7) Use distance against them.
Where possible know that tyranids have very short range guns, 36 or less. Long shooters like Lascannons, Railguns, Exorcists, Autocannons, Krak Missiles can all engage them and be out of range.

(8) Concentrate your efforts
Shoot one big target till it is gone. Make sure it is one with no cover save if possible. Avoid the temptation to try and shoot all the big bugs in one fire phase. Be prepared to give a squad away in CC if necesary to make sure one actually falls.

Good luck.

*SPLEDIT

HiveMind31 wrote:The only S10 shot in the entire Tyranid army is the single-shot Zoanthrope. Nothing they have is S10 and 2 shots.

Sorry but that is wrong. Yes there is a 2 shot S10 weapon, that's a venom cannon Carnifex, but the venom cannon is AP - (-1 on the pen chart) and only causes glancing hits on vehicles, a left over 4th ed rule (-2 on the vehicle chart). Its a crushing total of -3 on the pen chart for tanks, nearly ensuring they can not be destroyed byt that gun.

If a tyranid player actually brings these, be happy. They are abysmally bad antitank weapons. I didn't even bother to paint any in my bug army.

One of the best things I've seen for killing nids is attack bikes. Mobile heavy weapon platforms with either multi meltas or heavy bolters can really ruin the day for the nids. Land speeders work too but tend to be frailer than the 2 wound bikes with the 3+ save (which nothing in the nid shooting arsenal gets though).

That and (funny though it may seem) big shooty bugs are really vulnerable to hand to hand if the attacking unit has a power fist (or similar weapon)

Augustus wrote:

HiveMind31 wrote:The only S10 shot in the entire Tyranid army is the single-shot Zoanthrope. Nothing they have is S10 and 2 shots.

Sorry but that is wrong. Yes there is a 2 shot S10 weapon, that's a venom cannon Carnifex, but the venom cannon is AP - (-1 on the pen chart) and only causes glancing hits on vehicles, a left over 4th ed rule (-2 on the vehicle chart). Its a crushing total of -3 on the pen chart for tanks, nearly ensuring they can not be destroyed byt that gun.

If a tyranid player actually brings these, be happy. They are abysmally bad antitank weapons. I didn't even bother to paint any in my bug army.

Sorry, but some of that is also wrong.

The venom cannon is AP4.

If the vehicle is not opened topped any peneratating hit scored by it will only ever glance. Glancing hits incur a -2 penalty on the damage table.

It is a brillaint anti-tank weapon for tyrants, much better than for example a fleshborer.. which can only ever glance AV10 vehicles. The change with close-combat rules in regards to vehicles has been favourable to nids.

T7 'fexes are immune to standard banshees doom or no, and pretty resistant to a exarch str 5 banshee.

but the venom cannon is AP - (-1 on the pen chart)

Not true, venom cannon is AP4 and there is no minus to the chart other then the normal glance -2 in 5ed. Against open topped, there is no negative. Great against ork BWs.

Also disagree on them being terrible -- they work well at neutralizing a tank, something that is not to be ignored. And open topped battlewagons are going to be popular, penning that AR14 open topped is nice.

Why on earth would GW make them scatter the barb strangler blast template when their BS is already so low?

No wonder people are favoring melee >.>

winterman wrote:

but the venom cannon is AP - (-1 on the pen chart)

Not true, venom cannon is AP4 and there is no minus to the chart other then the normal glance -2 in 5ed. Against open topped, there is no negative. Great against ork BWs.

Also disagree on them being terrible -- they work well at neutralizing a tank, something that is not to be ignored. And open topped battlewagons are going to be popular, penning that AR14 open topped is nice.

if barb strangler at str 8 scatters, can it scatter to behind a vehicle with 10 av ?

LunaHound wrote:Why on earth would GW make them scatter the barb strangler blast template when their BS is already so low?

No wonder people are favoring melee >.>

winterman wrote:

but the venom cannon is AP - (-1 on the pen chart)

Not true, venom cannon is AP4 and there is no minus to the chart other then the normal glance -2 in 5ed. Against open topped, there is no negative. Great against ork BWs.

Also disagree on them being terrible -- they work well at neutralizing a tank, something that is not to be ignored. And open topped battlewagons are going to be popular, penning that AR14 open topped is nice.

if barb strangler at str 8 scatters, can it scatter to behind a vehicle with 10 av ?

If the a blast weapon hits a vehicle with/out its centre whole being over the vehicle then the shot it worked out at 1/2 str so even if it did, its got a poor chance of doing anything. Otherwise a blast weapons hit, reguardless of what section (front/rear etc), is always worked out from the armor facing the direction of the firer.
So no it can stay on a vehicle but scatter to rear armor.

What.. BS2 = Hit a target on a 5+. 1-4 = miss. Nothing happens.

Scatter dice = hit on a 5+ OR on a 1-4 scatter 2d6" - bs (in this case 2) Your going to hit somthing most of the time.

The new scatter rules crazily improved scatter weapons for poor BS models whilst making it slightly worse for high-bs units.

Razerous wrote:The venom cannon is AP4.
...
It is a brillaint anti-tank weapon for tyrants, much better than for example a fleshborer.. which can only ever glance AV10 vehicles. The change with close-combat rules in regards to vehicles has been favourable to nids.

Thanks for the detail, I missed that AP4. I should really check my dex, but brilliant? Really? Always glancing, 2 shots at BS2, on a 200 point model.

Not brilliant, desperate.

And rolling 6s to hit in CC, is pretty hard, especially when most fexes get 2 attacks, and are fairly easy to avoid.

Razerous wrote:T7 'fexes are immune to standard banshees doom or no, and pretty resistant to a exarch str 5 banshee.

Well thats one unit, in one situation and a heavy support fex too.

Augustus wrote:

Thanks for the detail, I missed that AP4. I should really check my dex, but brilliant? Really? Always glancing, 2 shots at BS2, on a 200 point model.

Not brilliant, desperate.

At 200 points the carnifex should have BS 3, or you are doing something wrong.

True,

I was actually reconsidering, it could even be a twin linked venom cannon at BS3, that wouldn't be so bad at hitting as I remember before.

If memory serves that's a VERY expensive option BS+ and Twin Venom cannons, possibly some more biomorphs so it stays around, and the weapon slots are taken for other upgrades...

This thread is making me wonder though, I'd love to convert that, I haven't modeled a Venom Cannon in ages!

Maybe just for fun games? Anyone try that in 5th ed have an opinion?

I own Venom Cannons. Fortunately, they're magnetic, and didn't hurt the models when I pulled them off.

Carnifex = Barbed Strangler + Scything Talons. Other upgrades to taste (+1 WS is a good choice, as it cuts down on marine hits by 1/4). The extra CC attack is a lovely thing, precisely because so many people are anxious to assault them.

Nidzilla fears
Chaos dual lash + oblit spam with plague marines.
Dark Eldar Lance Spam
Daemonzilla
Marines Land Raider spam
Mech Sisters with lots of flamers and 3 Exorcists
Orks with lots of Lootas.

Barbed strangler + sything claws are very nice although I much prefer it when they have a nice killable 3+ save.

As for a sniper-fex, a barbed strangler & a venom cannon with a BS upgrade is pretty good at putting down shots on vehicles with the idea to stun/stop/strip weapons off them. Som-one did the math-hammer and it sounded convincing.

Also I dunno where your getting 200pts from, but a simple 2+sv, venom cannon + BS + bs upgrade = 173pts.

Also I dunno where your getting 200pts from, but a simple 2+sv, venom cannon + BS + bs upgrade = 173pts.

Yeah my 2 gun fexes are usually 148 points (VC+BS+enhanced senses), maybe 163 for the extra wound in 1850+ points. I see little reason to upgrade them more then that in 5ed but YMMV. But I also have other carnifexes in play and like to run a good chunk of stealers in my lists as well. So the more points saved the better.

If memory serves that's a VERY expensive option BS+ and Twin Venom cannons

Twin-linked VCs, violates the basic 'more shots' principle of list building, and personally that blast is very handy in the current metagame.

2+ save makes it quite immune to all but lascannons. Plasma weaponary can fire at it but its usually in small-arms fire squads that would waste most of its firepower. But, its an extra 25pts.

now this is why i love orks
throw a unit of nobz at fex's, and they die.
throw a huge mob of boyz at em for the same effect.

runtherds with grot prods wound on a 4+ and get 3 attacks on the charge, so throw a unit of 30 gretchin at a fex, 3 runtherds with grot prods should do the job well while the fex kills cheap gretchin

I play something very close to the initial list posted. I lose more often than I win.

Why? Because as good as it is at killing on paper, it doesn't win missions.

In KP missions, you've got 3x Zoanthropes, Gaunt squads that die fast, and as good as a Dakkafex is, it's still relatively easy to kill. It's tough for 114 points, but it's not really that tough. Net result, you can kill his whole friggin army, and still lose. I played Deathwing the other day, he had nothing left but a Landraider. I had at least 3 MCs left, plus all my WoN Gaunts. I still lost by a good 4 KPs.

In objective missions you're a lot better off, especially with WoN Gaunts that can hop back on and grab objectives on your side, but the list tends to be very slow. I find that I tend to crush the other guy's list down, then end the game with his last troop squad sitting on his objective, my army about 12" away from that last squad, and then some skimmer or other fast unit contesting my objective (covered in Gaunts). Tau in particular seem to go this way. 6 Fire Warriors on his objective (my whole army set to run them over), 30 Gaunts and a Zoanthrope on mine, plus a Devilfish. Also, as nice as it is to have Gaunts pop back up on your side, they need Synapse to hold objectives.

If the game were as much about VPs as it used to be, I'd win 90% of my games, but it's not.

That said, I also kinda blow with the list, and feel like my luck is ridiculously bad. Playing the Deathwing I mentioned above, I think I scored about 10 S10 hits on Landraiders over the course of the game, and I think I rolled a 4+ on exactly 1. Conversely the other guy made roughly 104% of his 2+ saves.

I think if I were to improve the list, what I'd try next would be:

2x Dakkatyrant (maybe 1 with wings).
3x Dakkafex (or trade for Elite Stranglerfex).
2x Gunfex (maybe 3x)
The rest in Stealers, your favorite build, plus scuttlers, plus a squad or two w/o Scuttlers to hold your objective.

Some WoN Gaunts (Venom, Spinefists) would be ok, but then you'd want to trade 1 Dakkafex for Warriors with Deathspitters to give Synapse but still shoot.

Close combat equipped Tzeentch DPs. 4+invul to their str 10 and the DP always strike first, Dont forget khorne heralds on chariots.

Daemonzilla>Nidzilla through experience, hands down.

I play against Nidzilla a lot and they irritate me considerably! As to the notion that Carnis can't catch LRs, it's not necessarily true in objective games.

In KP games, I'd wholeheartedly agree as I can drive around happily pumping out 1 LC shot a turn. But in objective games, I frequently have to keep them near an objective.

Unfortunately, because of the number of MCs involved, Carnis are usually alive at the lategame and start whomping my LRs with Str 9 + 2d6 hits. All they need is one and there's one dead raider.... Before you guys say - why the hell is it near a 6" moving monstrous creature. One: I usually find myself tankshocking Genestealers or gaunts off objectives. Two: MCs also have run, which makes them more mobile than before.

My problems with Nidzilla are when they play objective games as they control space quite well. With KP games, I can drive away and start blasting at KP yielding units like Zoeys (which I kill anyway because they are the only things capable of taking out LRs reliably at range!). You can tell I play mechanised armies...

I just played a game against nidzilla just then, like 30mins ago lol.

I play chaos daemons and just used skulltaker on a juggernaught to take down two fexes. It was brutal. It was a small game so he didn't have any synapse.

I don't think my friend knew that skulltaker causes instant death seeing as he charged the first fex in. So I imagine any player that is clued in to skulltaker would give him the run around. In a bigger game I'd definately bring my greater daemons and princes to bear on them though.

Phryxis wrote:I play something very close to the initial list posted. I lose more often than I win.

Why? Because as good as it is at killing on paper, it doesn't win missions.

In KP missions, ...kill his whole friggin army, and still lose. ...at least 3 MCs left, plus all my WoN Gaunts. I still lost by a good 4 KPs.

...tend to crush the other guy's list down, then end the game with his last troop squad sitting on his objective, my army about 12" away from that last squad, and then some skimmer or other fast unit contesting my objective ...

If the game were as much about VPs as it used to be, I'd win 90% of my games, but it's not.

That said, I also kinda blow with the list, and feel like my luck is ridiculously bad. Playing the Deathwing I mentioned above, I think I scored about 10 S10 hits on Landraiders over the course of the game, and I think I rolled a 4+ on exactly 1. Conversely the other guy made roughly 104% of his 2+ saves.

That is my experience as well. Empty weaponless transports contesting my objectives. Loosing games to Maries, Sisters, Chaos and Eldar, when I have killed more of their armies then they have of mine etc.

Hear ya on the luck thing also, I played a game where I used 5 TMCs worth of devourers to put over 24 wounds on a Bloodthirster, it actually took, only 2. Then I rolled NO HITS in CC with 3 fexes for 2 turns of melee and it killed them all. In an Eldar game once I got 8 pen hits and never rolled over a 3 for damage... (Lost it by contested OBJs just like you described, WON gaunts doing nothing because of the waveserpents).

Are you still bitter about the Bloodthirster thing? Gawd, get over it. [edit: it was my thirster, and indeed that was astronomical luck in my favor, all joking aside.]