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I have been playing nurgle chaos space marines since 3rd edition. For 5th edition I finally updated my army with new models and have been excitedly painting and playing with them.

Since 5e came out i've been having a VERY hard time being competitive with them. I've tried countless lists and can't seem to maintain the same winning ratio I was having before. Against MEQ armies I am winning ~4 out of 5 games but against orks, IG, and demon's I feel like i've a hit a wall. I don't seem to have the hitting power that I needed. My list has been looking like this:

Demon prince with warp time and wings
7 termies that deepstrike to icons with 3 combiplasma, heavy flamer, and multi-melta (the best squad in my army)
8 plauge marines, 2 melta guns, icon
8 plauge marines, powerfist, 2 plasma guns, icon
10 marines, undivided icon, 2 melta guns, rhino
10 marines, undivided icon, 2 melta guns
10 demons which suppliment the squads with icons when they need it
vindicator with possession
landraider
defiler

Thats the list i've been playing with recently IIRC. I've been reading up on tactic's but I haven't seen anything I haven't know about already. Sometimes I take a 4 autocannon squad instead of the landraider.

Are there squads that I am missing here? Is there something major that i'm not doing? I'm getting really frustrated at this army and I JUST finished it so I was really hoping someone can help me out.

Can anyone give me some advice or suggest a unit I should be using? I greatly appreciate any help you can give me. Thanks!

Grundel out

The major thing you are doing wrong is not having 2 x Lash DPs and 9 x oblits....


If you want to keep with the fluff you could drop the lash DPs but you still need the 3 squads of Oblits.


CSM has been reduced to a one trick pony.

Seriously? Is that what chaos has been reduced to?

Since they are painted preheresy I may just play them as marines. I don't see any problem in that. I find it hard to believe oblits are the end all be all for chaos.

i run a deathguard, and i only run 2-3 oblits , i do fine. i would agree that deathguard is awsome against meqs, but some things iv ran to beat orks and hordes etc. is:
Nurgles rot on daemon prices(or sorcerer) this is awsome against orks and nids, in one game i killed 19 hormaguants and termaguants.
run a squad with double flamers
put a havok launcher on rhinos they work great sometimes

the list i run is like this

7: plauge marines with two plasmaguns and powerfist on pc in rhino with havok launcher
about two of these squads
7 plauge marines with two meltaguns in a rhino and powerfist
and sometimes a sqaud of seven with two meltas or flamers for holding obje
1-2 daemon princes of nurgle wings one with nurgles rot one with winds of chaos if im playing a fun game i swape one for sorcerer and run dreadnought to
and 2-3 obliterators in seperate solo squads

this list is pretty vannila but i placed fourth out of twenty in a local tourney( would have one but those damn eldar!)


vindicators are great two

With all the melta and plasma, no wonder you're having trouble with horde armies. Some flamers like ArmoredReaper suggest would add some much needed close range, mass infantry killingness.

You don't say what you're doing with the landraider, are you transporting something in it? Not the termis I see, but maybe that wouldn't be a bad idea, dropping 2 or 3 termis to be able to move the landraider into their dedicated transport would free up another heavy support slot, which could easily be filled with another vindicator or defiler. Those battle cannon/demolisher templates will barely miss when firing at hordes. Also, how do you get a multi-melta in a squad of termis? Drop the daemons to get the extra points for the tank, as they aren't worth their points. Basic CSMs are better than daemons all round, shooting, armour save, closecombat.

I dont understand the complaining. plague marines are very difficult to kill! get them on an objective and stay there. use bezerkers or other goodness

and its not just about oblits. defilers are plenty nasty on their own.

just my .02

Your list definitely looks like it's tooled to only fight meq's or armor. You have very little to no horde control. I would recommend dropping the lesser daemons, giving the last 2 squads a rhino, and giving all the rhino's havoc racks. If you are going to add in some flamers give them to the plague marines not the normal squads. Also because of the new template rules, combi-flamers are way more effective than they used to be. Against t3 nurgles rot realy is awesome, I've toasted witch squads using it.

Post some batreps so we can see whats going on in your games and maybe we can recommend something more specific tactics wise besides just list setup.

I reiterate the above suggestions. One of your special weapons in each of your squads should be a flamer. They ignore cover, are dirt cheap, and hit way more targets then they used to. Three obliterators are cheaper than the landraider and in my opinion are better all around. You may want to drop the demons and icons on the plague marines and purchase something else. Raptor are nice, though expensive, they can support squads as needed in a short amount of time with jet-packs and running. Lash is powerful, but doesn't fit into the Nurgle theme. Make sure you are using cover to your advantage, especially with Obliterators if you decide to go with them, it's pretty critical.

I play chaos and Orks and find that the best marine defense against Orks is destroying trukks/wagons before they can advance, bottlenecking them with terrain if possible. Once they are out of the vehicles blast weapons and template weapons are your greatest friends. Make sure to hit the Nobz with high strength atttacks to inflice instant death or they'll spread the wounds around and will get a feel-no-pain roll if they have a doc in the unit.

CSM are definitely not a one trick pony. I have fought several different CSM armies that were very good and not lash and obliterator spam. If I were you, I would drop the LR. You have nothing super tough to transport and LR are not worth it just for shooting. If you want anti-horde, consider taking either more defilers or more vindicators. Large blasts are awesome. Also, as has been said, Nurgles rot is amazing versus hordes, but warptime is better VS MEQ, so that is your call. I think Warptime is better overall.
I would drop your standard marines in exchange for more Plague marines. Also, your plague champs can take combi-weapons, so give them a flamer. This will help kill off a few orks or nids and its definitely worth ir for 5 points.

As for the terminators, I know from experience that deepstriking chaos terminators are amazing. but again, if you are looking for anti-horde, or just to simply put more wounds out there, then give the guys who do not already have combi-weapons, combi-flamers.

Hope this helps.

Have to agree with combi-flamers, and the awesomeness of deep striking termies. If you have access to a sorcerer, stick him with terminators and you've got another template of doom.

Thank you for all the imput. I forgot to mention the combi-flamers on the powerfist models. Also I meant combi-melta not multi-metla on the termies.

I will change some stuff around and add the havoc launcher, I used to take it but dropped it because it never really got to fire. Nurgles rot is a good point i'll drop warptime for it. Instead of the oblits I like a landraider. It's less points (well only 5) then 3 oblits, it has 2 TL lascannon shots and armor 14. I keep guys in it near an objective.

I'm going to give 4 squads of 8 plague marines a try. That sounds promising with 2 squads with PF, KF, 2 flamers and 2 squads with 2 melta and a KM/meltabombs.

Should I drop the demon prince for a sorc with terminator armor?? The demon prince gets shot up pretty damn fast in games. The terminator sorc you would REALLY have to dig through some guys (7 terminators) before you'd get to him.

Thoughts?

the daemon prince will get shot up, but that is shots not going toward your other stuff. It all depends. Personally, I like DP.

A good DG build is something like:
2xDP, one WT, one rot (anti-horde)
2x7 PM Flamer
2x PM Melta, Rhino
2x LR.

Hope this helps.

The other nice thing about the DP vs the Sorc is that the DP is a bit more versatile: Being able to crack open tanks and not having to use a psychic power to vap some fools is pretty sweet.

Nurgle's rot is rubbish, I don't understand the enthusiasm for it. Honestly.

Here's some things I notice about your army:

#1: Not enough rhinos. Seriously, the rhinos are the single best thing modern day marines have going for them. You mentioned having trouble beating Orks/Daemons. Daemons, at least, are seriously inconvenienced by Mech Marines. The rhinos basically guarantee you the charge. Orks can Loota them down, but you can still get a lot of value out of the Rhinos. They hurt you in KP missinos, but not as much as you'd think, just hide em.

#2: Use the second HQ slot. CSM HQ Slots are gold. Even if you don't use the lash due to fluff, you can get value from CSM HQ slots. A Warptiming HQ is death for just about anything it touches.

#3: Like everyone else said, I'd drop the Land Raider for a different heavy support slot. Oblits, Defiler or Vindy will all do fine.

The basic chaos army is rhinos full of fearless troops backed up by an all-star Heavy Support section. Go back to basics, you'll do great.

Chaos without lash of submission simply does not have the range or mobility to compete with super-long-range or super-mobile armies, so lacking that psychic power you're never going to have a super-competitive army.

An army that's fun to play, sure, but not an army that's going to compete at a high level.

I play chaos, and I don't use Lash often, but I know that I'm hobbling myself by doing so, but I pretty much just play to blow things up, so I'm OK with it.

The big problem, sad to say, is your Terminators. Termies aren't particularly good horde control. Eliminating them would give you points to buy a Defiler and several more troops and Rhinos.

Twin Lash and Obliterators may be needed to win a GT or 'ard Boyz. But for anything else there are plenty of competitive builds. I run the following and it works well enough:

HQ:
Daemon Prince (wings, MoN, warptime)
Daemon Prince (wings, MoN, warptime)

Troops:
7 PM (champ, pfist, combi-flamer, 2xflamer)
7 PM (champ, pfist, combi-flamer, 2xflamer)
7 PM (champ, pfist, combi-melta, 2xmelta, Rhino)
7 PM (champ, pfist, combi-melta, 2xmelta, Rhino)

Heavy:
Land Raider (DP)
Land Raider (DP)
Vindicator (DP)

My flamer troops run around in the Land Raiders. Each Raider has a Prince hiding behind for cover. All troops are Mechanized and roll up (with Vindicator support) to overload the enemy anti-tank defenses.

This won't beat uber-lists like Ork Nob Bikers or Twin Lash, but otherwise holds its own.

@40kenthusiast: Compared to Lash everything is crap for psychic powers for the most part. Warp Time is good but nugle doesn't usually have a problem killing elite things. The problem is getting swarmed by things that are just too numerous or have too many attacks. I agree hand's down that rot sucks against meq. But against everything else it really helps out a dp who is getting swarmed by little guys. I will say that the only people who do take it are usually people who are playing pure fluff based nurgle lists.

Thalor wrote:I reiterate the above suggestions. One of your special weapons in each of your squads should be a flamer. They ignore cover, are dirt cheap, and hit way more targets then they used to.

I've seen this statement twice in this thread..... Flamers hit EXACTLY as many models as they used to. Blast markers were changed to follow Template rules.

Lordhat wrote:

Thalor wrote:I reiterate the above suggestions. One of your special weapons in each of your squads should be a flamer. They ignore cover, are dirt cheap, and hit way more targets then they used to.

I've seen this statement twice in this thread..... Flamers hit EXACTLY as many models as they used to. Blast markers were changed to follow Template rules.

I'll second that, the only way you get "more" hits out of a flamer is when running multiples in one unit. For instance 2 flamers and a combi-flamer in the same pm squad will get more hits than they used to, one flamer gets you nothing special.

Actually, since they changed flamers to be resolved simultaneously, rather than working out casualties from each template separately, flamers DO hit more than they used to, but only if you're taking more than one.

Lordhat wrote:

Thalor wrote:I reiterate the above suggestions. One of your special weapons in each of your squads should be a flamer. They ignore cover, are dirt cheap, and hit way more targets then they used to.

I've seen this statement twice in this thread..... Flamers hit EXACTLY as many models as they used to. Blast markers were changed to follow Template rules.

You're right, my apologies. I instantly try to flush the old rules out of my system and have subsiquently confused the old blast rules with the old template rules. It still doesn't change the fact that flamers rock for a 'take all comers' build though! (Even just one in a squad)

thalor

Thalor wrote:

Lordhat wrote:

Thalor wrote:I reiterate the above suggestions. One of your special weapons in each of your squads should be a flamer. They ignore cover, are dirt cheap, and hit way more targets then they used to.

I've seen this statement twice in this thread..... Flamers hit EXACTLY as many models as they used to. Blast markers were changed to follow Template rules.

You're right, my apologies. I instantly try to flush the old rules out of my system and have subsiquently confused the old blast rules with the old template rules. It still doesn't change the fact that flamers rock for a 'take all comers' build though! (Even just one in a squad)

thalor

See my above post. Single flamer templates are not any more effective, but multiple flamer templates in the same squad are significantly so.