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Folks, need clarification:

Page 61 of the rulebook (on damage results for vehicles)

6 Destroyed - Explodes

Te vehicle is destroyed, as its fuel and ammo detonate, ripping it apart in a spectacular explosion. Flaming debris is scattered D6" from the vehicle, and models in range suffer from a Strength 3, Ap- hit. The vehicle is then removed and is replaced with an area of difficult ground representing scattered wreckage or a crater (if you have one).

Page 21 of the rulebook (coversaves)

Among the various things that give a 4+ cover save: Wreckage, Craters, Rubble...etc....

When a vehicle explodes, the models inside are forced to make an emergency disembark and are placed within the boundaries dictated by the vehicle that just got destroyed. They should now be getting 4+ cover saves, correct?

I play it that way, yes. I've seen other people interpret it otherwise, though.

our group plays it that way as well the book says replace the vehicle with
wreakage and the book states wreakage gives you a cover save.

When a vehicle explodes, models surrounding the vehicle take a S3 hit as described on page 61. However, passengers take all take a S4 hit before being placed on the table and taking a pinning test, as described on page 67.

The passengers shouldn't receive a cover save from the wreckage because they receive their hits before being placed on the board. Page 67 even specifically states "The surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be ..."

I thought the question was with regards to subsequent shooting? Ie, the vehicle is destroyed, they take their wounds and are placed in the newly-formed crater. Any other shooting from the enemy then gives them a 4+ cover save.

Though, for some reason I keep playing it as a 5+ cover save. Sigh, there's lots of stuff about transports I keep forgetting in v5, it seems (I keep thinking that wrecked results also wound transported units...oops).

solkan has it, all models take hits from the explosion beforethe crater is placed. (also make more logical sense sine the occupants are at the heart of it!

Cheexsta wrote:I thought the question was with regards to subsequent shooting? Ie, the vehicle is destroyed, they take their wounds and are placed in the newly-formed crater. Any other shooting from the enemy then gives them a 4+ cover save.

Though, for some reason I keep playing it as a 5+ cover save. Sigh, there's lots of stuff about transports I keep forgetting in v5, it seems (I keep thinking that wrecked results also wound transported units...oops).

You're kinda both right

Solkan has it correct - with regards to the wounds the PASSENGERS take, they get a S4 hit with no cover save before they are placed on the board. Any model within d6" of the vehicle when it explodes (not the passengers) take a S3 hit with cover saves allowed (if they're in cover already, based on the direction of the explosion).

AFTER all this has been resolved, you place the passengers on the board, the vehicle turns into a wreck, and offers cover saves as any other piece of terrain would against any further enemy shooting that turn.

Personally, we tend to play it differently, since we don't have any 'exploded vehicle' terrain pieces
- If a vehicle is wrecked we place it upside down or on it's side, and it counts as terrain as normal
- If a vehicle explodes we remove it from the table, assuming it blew up and bits went everywhere.

as far as the 4+ cover save goes, this should be discussed with your opponent before the game starts or the TO

please note that a vehicle explosion and a wreck are not area terrain unless declared so.

I kinda agree with Ian.

If you don't have the terrain pieces to represent the wreckage and/or crater, I'd say no cover save for you. To get a cover save, by definition, some portion of the model must be obscured from the perspective of the firing model.

You might wanna start making some wrecked vehicle and/or crater models to use in your games.

Saldiven is correct.

A Crater is defined as something that can give cover, though remember that per the 5th ed LOS and cover rules, part of the model must be obscured by the terrain from the perspective of the firing model for cover to apply. If you have a model in a crater (for example) which is being fired on by a model from an elevated position, who can see the whole target model, the target gets no cover save, despite the fact that it’s in a crater. So if you don't have a crater to put on the table, there's no way those models are going to get cover saves. There's nothing physically there to obscure them.

An “area of difficult ground representing scattered wreckage*” is NOT defined as something that gives cover. Though again, if the modeled terrain obscures LOS from the perspective of the firer, it potentially could.

Either way, cover will only apply if you actually have some kind of modeled terrain for the models to hide in. Either way, though, the area should be marked in some way as “difficult ground”, which I read as equivalent to Difficult Terrain. I usually use extra templates or large blast markers if I don’t have a crater or wreckage terrain handy.

*Side note: A “wreck” is something different, and in fact is what is left behind if you get a 5 on the vehicle damage chart, not a 6.

solkan wrote:When a vehicle explodes, models surrounding the vehicle take a S3 hit as described on page 61. However, passengers take all take a S4 hit before being placed on the table and taking a pinning test, as described on page 67.

The passengers shouldn't receive a cover save from the wreckage because they receive their hits before being placed on the board. Page 67 even specifically states "The surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be ..."

I agree that you don't get cover saves from the vehicle explosion. I'm talking about the subsequent wreckage and crater giving the models left over cover saves.

What I've found to be the easiest way to deal with a 6 result and debris is I actually make the terrain. I roughly trace the outline of the vehicle I'm using and then build it up with wreckage.

1. It looks cool.
2. It makes it very clear that is is difficult terrain and will afford a cover save.

Hang on. You get a cover save for being in area terrain, right?

So "an area of difficult ground, representing wreckage or a crater" seems to clearly indicate that the position occupied by the ex-vehicle becomes area terrain (wreckage or crater), offering 4+ cover to models that occupy it whether they are obscured for LOS or not.

Dashofpepper wrote:

solkan wrote:When a vehicle explodes, models surrounding the vehicle take a S3 hit as described on page 61. However, passengers take all take a S4 hit before being placed on the table and taking a pinning test, as described on page 67.

The passengers shouldn't receive a cover save from the wreckage because they receive their hits before being placed on the board. Page 67 even specifically states "The surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be ..."

I agree that you don't get cover saves from the vehicle explosion. I'm talking about the subsequent wreckage and crater giving the models left over cover saves.

If they are placed inside the D6" wreckage, then yes they get cover saves after the fact the vehicle explodes.

Boss Ardnutz wrote:Hang on. You get a cover save for being in area terrain, right?

So "an area of difficult ground, representing wreckage or a crater" seems to clearly indicate that the position occupied by the ex-vehicle becomes area terrain (wreckage or crater), offering 4+ cover to models that occupy it whether they are obscured for LOS or not.

Correct. If a non-vehicle/monstrous creature model is even partially within area terrain they will get a cover save (normally 4+) even if there are a clear LOS.

except an area of difficult ground IS NOT area terrain.

If you read through the terrain rules you will see that area terrain is listed as a type of terrain as is difficult ground.

Not all area terrain is difficult and not all difficult terrain is area terrain.

ArbitorIan wrote:Personally, we tend to play it differently, since we don't have any 'exploded vehicle' terrain pieces
- If a vehicle is wrecked we place it upside down or on it's side, and it counts as terrain as normal
- If a vehicle explodes we remove it from the table, assuming it blew up and bits went everywhere.

This is exactly how we play it at my store.

Thus far, when I suffer a vehicle explodes (often enough since I've been playing mobile orks lately), I've put down a piece of felt, or a bunker top, or something to represent where the vehicle was. BRB describes a vehicle explosion as leaving behind a crater and wreckage, and both of those things grant 4+ cover saves.

When a vehicle explodes, I think it is perfectly logical that it is split asunder, and that the subsequent wreckage would be things troops would use to hide behind. When a bomb hits the ground, it leaves a crater - that's actual cover. Some folks don't play that way?

The rules seem to clearly indicate in an explosion result what to do though...