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I am planing on have 20 boyz ride in a battle wagon. My Problem is that i can't decide to have to a shooting platform(shootas) or a wagon full of choppyness( choppa /slugga )!

Any suggestions or experience with the matter?

I'd go with Shootas. In my opinion, Choppy Orks lose too many models in close combat with MEQ if you have to assault a full squad. Shoota Boyz in a BW are going to force ~7 Armor Saves per turn of shooting. In just a couple of turns you can whittle down a Tac Squad pretty effectively, and then get out for the charge to mop them up.

Not to mention, Shoota Orks are only marginally less effective in the assault. I mean, 19 shootas with PK Nob are still getting almost 60 attacks with 4 PK attacks on the charge.

A full tac squad only gets to kill two sluggas before they get to go, unless they get really lucky. Plus a squad of 20 sluggas actually kills a space marine with average rolls shooting.

After that the sluggas kill 6-7 space marines in one assault, then another two if the space marines get caught by the sweeping advance (I know, not super likely), but you're looking at a full dead marine squad in one turn.

Shootas are better on foot, because they can fire 18", and even move away from some enemies to prevent charges.

willydstyle wrote:A full tac squad only gets to kill two sluggas before they get to go, unless they get really lucky. Plus a squad of 20 sluggas actually kills a space marine with average rolls shooting.

2 Marines. 7 wounds = 2.3 Marines.

After that the sluggas kill 6-7 space marines in one assault, then another two if the space marines get caught by the sweeping advance (I know, not super likely), but you're looking at a full dead marine squad in one turn.

Shootas will kill 2.3 Marines every turn from shooting and another 6 in the Assault. They also have the option not to assault versus killy units like Khorne Berzerkers and Bloodletters.

Shootas are better on foot, because they can fire 18", and even move away from some enemies to prevent charges.

Shootas in a Battlewagon have an effective shooting range of 24" without suffering Line of Sight issues. Likewise if the BW gets punked early they still have an effective threat radius of ~24" footslogging.

You misunderstood me: sluggas kill a space marine with their shooting before they assault. Their shooting is not entirely inconsequential.

If you're riding up to battle, then you're going to be in assault when you disembark. And likely, you'll even be fleeting on the turn you get out from the Waaugh! which means that you won't be shooting them at all. Go with Sluggas/choppas.

Thanks for all the fast responses but i am still undecided. :(

Well, what else is in the army?

I personally run a mix of shootas/slugga boyz in my army (shoota's in trukks, sluggas running on ground).

Hmm.

I don't actually play orks, but reading their stats.

It looks like since the Shoota is Assault 2, you're in essence.

Charging into combat - Choppa boys get one BS2 S4 AP6 shot from pistol and one bonus attack at WS4 S4 I3 w/ no AP value.
Charging into combat - Shoota boys get one BS2 S4 AP6 shot and another BS2 S4 AP6 shot.
The extra shot is less likely to hit, but always strikes before enemy. The enemy gets cover saves against it, possibly making shootas less effective at charging a unit in trees.

Against things which are bad at melee (such as tau), the choppa attack would do more damage (on the charge) than the 2nd gun shot.

Although, the choppa ork does 0 damage while more than 12" away, whereas the shootas can still get off 2 shots each while moving at 18".

So, in comparison. Choppas would be for tying up units that might have good shooting, but are bad in close-combat. (They don't bother shooting, so they can run D6" instead)
But the shootas can shoot and walk backwards/forwards and keep shooting. Kinda like Noise Marines or Eldar, the other troops which have Assault 2 weaponry.

I reckon if someone is doing some all-out waagh rush-list where speed is main priority, that means go with Choppas + Running + Waagh at appropriate time.
But if you are one of those loota-spamming (muttered obscenities) then taking lots of shootas might compliment your style of shooting your opponent apart while walking backwards.

Again...

For a foot slogging army, shootas are the way to go. Orks have a base initiative of 2, and initiative 3 on the charge. That means that MOST armies are going to go before you. Even if you charge them, you're probably going second (except against Tau and IG).

30 Boyz Shoota boyz and 30 slugga/choppa boyz charging into a unit of space marines aren't going to end up with the same result. The space marines are going to get their say so before the orks ever start swinging, and there's a lot of power swords and power weapons floating around to instant kill boyz.

When you're using shoota boyz, you've got 30 boyz taking a total of 60 shots at the unit before you charge. On those space marines, you're going to average 20 hits, and get 10 wounds. Those space marines will average 6 saves out of 10, and you'll kill 4 space marines before you charge in. That's 4 less marines attacking you before you get your say so in. Same thing with terminators or anyone else - killing any of them before you get into close combat is handy.

Remember that Shootas are actually LESS damaging than an Ork's melee attacks on-the-charge, because they're only AP 6 (therefore more or less wasted on anything apart from Wyches and other Orks) and have less shots than Sluggas have attacks.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Remember that Shootas are actually LESS damaging than an Ork's melee attacks on-the-charge, because they're only AP 6 (therefore more or less wasted on anything apart from Wyches and other Orks) and have less shots than Sluggas have attacks.

Shootas are AP6, Choppa attacks are AP-. Shootas are S4, Choppas are S3 after that first round of combat. Doesn't sound like a big deal, but against T5 models it's a world of difference. Shootas have 1 less attack in CC, but dumped more than twice as many shots into the victim unit from range.

I will simplify it.
On foot use shootas. It is better to kill as many as you can before you chaarge.
In transports, use sluggas.

That has yielded the best results for me.

What else is in the army? Every good warboss needs a mix of shootas and sluggas.

I agree that you need a mix of shootas, and choppa/sluggas,n but for the battle wagon go choppa chopp choppa, since the battlewagon will be able to move you close enough to where you can assault the enemy, and possibly shoot first also. Include in the squad a nob with a powerklaw and possibly a kombi-weapon, throw a rokkit boy and a big shoota in there too. Then for the battle wagon load it up with big shootas and a kannon (not the kill kanon, just the regular kannon because you still want to keep the transport capacity) add hard top, grot outriggers, and possibly a deffrolla and your right as rain. You get the best of both worlds, shhoty from the battlewagon, rokkit, and big shoota boyz and all the assaulty goodness from the choppa boyz. Shoota boyz are just not a good choice for this situation and in my opinion should never be put in transports if there's choppa boyz that could be in there instead. The transports are just about getting the boyz from point A to B so they can assault. Sure shoota boyz can put down a lot of fire but that BS 2 is not that great so stick to what orks is good at an' dats choppin' so go with the assaultiness. Those sheer number of close combat attacks are allot better against MEQ's than some would make it out to be.

no 'ard case on the transport - you are limiting the disembarkment. No rokkits or shootas in the mob, do take a shoota skorch akombi with a powerklaw and bosspole for your nob, though. Drop the flame template while the boys are firing their sluggas.

Let me re-enter the fray.

I have a Battlewagon, and after experimenting with Ghazghkull+Nobs in it, have decided to go back to my original setup.

Battlewagon+DeffRolla+Red Paint+Kannon+Big Shoota

Inside: 19 'Ard Boyz+Mad Dok Grotsnik. Those 'Ard Boyz are Slugga/Choppa

The benefit of ork vehicles is that they give you unsurpassed assault range. From a Trukk or battlewagon, you've got a potential 27" assault range. I always take slugga/choppa, and here's why.

1. When you move at cruising speed (12") the passengers cannot shoot. So while you're crossing the field as fast as you can in your battlewagon (13") you're not shooting the passengers.

2. Turn2 or Turn3 at the latest (probably turn2) those boyz are going to disembark and assault. If your enemy has deployed along their back edges, you're going to have to declare a Waaugh! so that you get a fleet of foot movement during your shooting phase, which lets you run D6 and still assault. Personally, I always take Ghazghkull Thraka and my fleet is always 6". When I deploy out of my trukks and Battlewagon, I Waaugh! and run them another 6", then assault 6" into combat. Nowhere in there was there an opportunity to shoot.

3. If you're going to hang out and shoot at people instead of getting into assault as fast as possible, then make a shooty ork army.

Don't worry about multiple turns in close combat after assaulting. 20 Boyz (1 of which is a powerklaw) are going to win pretty much any assault that they make (with a few exceptions). If you're willing to make this unit shine, make them 'Ard Boyz and add Mad Dok. Now you have 4+ armor saves, 4+ Feel No Pain saves, two powerklaws, and you're permanently fearless.

Thanks for all the great imput! Choppa/slugga seems

to be the better choice when considering they won't be

shooting if my wagon is moving 13 inches!!!

Good choice.

Try this on for size too - just a friendly game with someone; use a Warboss or a Painboy or something to Proxy Mad Dok Grotsnik (there isn't a real model of him) and stick him in there with your boyz. For 160 points, you get an HQ that gives feel no pain to your whole unit.

Even though on paper, sluggas and shootas look like they have about the same killiness, one thing that you haven't taken into account, Sourclams, is combat resolution.

Shoota boyz are great, don't get me wrong, they put down a sick amount of very versatile firepower.

Sluggas, though, are likely to not only win on the charge, but most of the time win big, virtually guaranteeing that the enemy unit will either flee, or take lots of no retreat wounds.

When you fight something with shootas, it will die after a few rounds of shooting plus a charge, but it will likely remain a threat for those turns.

When you fight something with sluggas, you tend to have to over-commit the slugga squad, but it makes the target gone on the round you charge them.

willydstyle wrote:
When you fight something with sluggas, you tend to have to over-commit the slugga squad, but it makes the target gone on the round you charge them.

Which leaves you hanging out in the breeze, ready for the rest of the defender's army to shoot you to ribbons. It's actually in your best interests for a close combat to last TWO rounds to nullify enemy shooting. I've actually started using squads of 20 Boys instead of 30 for this very reason. It's also easier to maneuver. More KP is the downside.

Personally I like Shoota boyz better because on the turn you charge you actually get 5 S4 attacks... two from shooting where the enemy cannot strike back. But then again I'm usually on foot with most of my army.

The green git summed it up best. You move the sluggas across the board and do nothing but move and die.
With shootas on foot, you get an average of 9 S4 attacks when you charge: 2 rounds of shooting on the way there, shoot before the carge, and charge.
9 S4 attacks > 4 S4 attacks.

Again, when in a transport, take sluggas, when sloggin' take shootas.

willydstyle wrote:Sluggas, though, are likely to not only win on the charge, but most of the time win big, virtually guaranteeing that the enemy unit will either flee, or take lots of no retreat wounds.

Let's test the veracity of this statement (short version below, long version follows):


Short Version

19 Shootas with a PK Nob (very standard loadout) versus a vanilla Tac Marine squad: 8.2 Marines dead.

19 Choppas with a PK Nob versus a vanilla Tac squad: 8.5 Marines dead.

So against a very typical target of assault, Choppas kill 0.3 more models. Woooo. And the Shootas have much more tactical flexibility due to the ability to stay in their AV14 bunker, driving around 7" a turn and laying down fire.

Math

Battlewagon drives 13", Shootas disembark 2". 38 Shootas fire. ((19*2)+1)/3/2/3) 2.2 Marines die. Shootas assault. Marines kill (8/2/2*5/6) 1.7 Shootas. Shootas attack. (17*3/2/2/3) 4.25 Marines die, Nob with Klaw kills (4/2*5/6) 1.7 Marines. 8.2 Marines dead in one turn of shooting/assaulting. If they make their leadership test to stay in the combat, another 1.3 Marines die to No Retreat! wounds. Going by the averages, they're all dead and the Shootas can either load up again or form an 18" fire base.

Battlewagon drives 13", Choppas disembark 2". 20 Sluggas fire. (20/3/2/3) 1.1 Marines die. Sluggas assault. Marines kill (9/2/2*5/6) 1.9 Sluggas. Sluggas attack. (17*4/2/2/3) 5.7 Marines die, Nob with Klaw kills (4/2*5/6) 1.7 Marines. 8.5 Marines dead in one turn of shooting/assaulting, if it goes to No Retreat! they die.

So against a very typical target of assault, Choppas kill 0.3 more models. Woooo. And the Shootas have much more tactical flexibility due to the ability to stay in their AV14 bunker, driving around 7" a turn and laying down fire.

Now, here's the big distinction. Exact same situation, but against Khorne Berzerkers.

Choppas kill 1.1 with shooting, charge in, lose 7-8 models, 12 attack back killing 4, Nob kills 1.7. Orks lose combat by 1-2, fearless wounds inflict another casualty. 11 Orks left. Orks eventually win the combat largely due to the hidden PK nob, but now they only have 9 Boyz left in their mob. Minimal shooting can force them off the table, and another charge into an assault-oriented unit will kill them all off.

Shoota Boyz, on the other hand, sit tight in their battlewagon plunking 2 MEQ each turn from 18" away. They have the option to assault, but they don't have to exercise it. This gives you options, creating flexibility, and if you do have to assault, statistically you're going to do as well or better (depending on how many turns shooting) than a unit with Choppas.

You're missing the point of what I'm saying:

The sluggas kill more in CC, therefore are more decisive because of combat resolution rules, they force enemies to take leadership tests at lower LD, and cause more no retreat wounds where applicable.

And yes, sluggas die horribly charging berzerkers, because they are THE premier anti-ork CC unit. No big surprise there.

I'm not saying that one squad is clearly superior to the other in all situations, but that there are room for sluggas in a list, and a BW is definitely one place for them. Buy them 'eavy armor and the Mad Doc, and then they're extra extra deadly, even against berzerkers.

I suggest Shootas with a Nob and a PK

Previous posters have talked about them, but honestly they are just more useful...and I don't even play ORKS! that 18' range keeps the pressure on me and narrows down my choices of where I want to move.

hmm 2 attacks followed by 3 on the charge or 1 attack followed by 4 on the charge. In my opinion, your I 2 ork is better off against most armies shooting twice first and then charging in with "only" 3 attacks.

Now if you guarantee you are facing guard or tau, maybe I will want the choppa but against any marine, give me the shootas.

20 orks...

40 shots, 13 hit, 6 wound, 2 dead marines
8 marines attack 9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 2.25 wound, 1.83 dead orks
54 attacks, 27 hit, 13.5 wound, 4.5 dead marines....

20 shots, 6.7 hit, 3.3 wound, 1 dead marine
9 marines attack, 10 attacks, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, 2.8 dead orks
64 attacks, 32 hits, 16 wounds, 5.33 dead marines