Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The whole idea of this thread is to discuss two different army books, and how they compare to each other each week.

I can guess this won't last long, but I'll try anyway.

Orcs & Goblins vs. Dwarves.

Discuss!

Dwarves win. Simple as that.

Explaining would help. this is a discussion, after all.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand this thread dies.

How do Dwarves do against Fanatic spam?

Badly...

I beat dwarves last week with my night Goblins- by 800 points in a 2250pt game.... and I only had 9 fanatics

Problem for dwarves is they camp, and react to their opponent... boring the hell out of both of them.

Problem for O&G is that animosity cripples them at the worst possible time. Its like a built in way for the army to loose. Remove it and suddenly they are reliably competative, HOWEVER animosity is what makes them unique and should not be removed.

malfred wrote:How do Dwarves do against Fanatic spam?

I was told driving a steamcopter right thru them will force them all out.

It will force out the fanatics from 1 unit, gyrocopter stops at 8 inches from said unit, fanatics released, if survive, gyrocopter may keep moving and then releases fanatics from next unit, if survives keeps moving, continue.... in my experience a gyrocopter doesn't make it past the 4th fanatic.

the gyrocopter will force out the first units fanatics and then get killed by them. best thing to do is have the gyrocopter fly next to a woods with the gobbos on the other side to make them release

Ok, let's take a look at O&G based on what it can do to Dwarfs, then vice versa:

I've never played as O&G, but I've played against em plenty of times, and the good stuff is: Night gobbo units with fanatics, Savage Ork Boarboys, gobbo bolt throwers, Grimgor, Giant, Squig Hoppas, spider riders. Also, the chariots are sometimes pretty good.

The Boarboys are the only things I'd bet on being able to walk the field and charge Dwarves. Night Gobbo units will take a panic test from something and run off, Giant is too large target not to get shot up by dwarf gunners, squig hoppas combine animosity with random movement for a face fulla fail vs. an enemy that doesn't advance to get flanked, and bolt throwers are shy on targets in the dwarf army. Spider riders will face shooting from something, and once again run off, or just get reamed by animosity.

The dwarves, by contrast, have a plethora of options for trouncing gobbos. Their arty works on the giant/wyvern, or just shooting for the general, who is the only one keeping the O&G on the field. Their gyros can release the fanatics. Even the basic quarrelers and gunners will lay waste to the largely unarmored greenskins.

This isn't nearly as decisive as the fact that in an actual engagement the dwarven units are fiercer. Ork's big bases hurt their ability to close in, and they need flanks and such to break the rock hard dwarf units. If the dwarves just castle up the Orks will be diving into assault to escape the shooting, and won't be able to set up flanks.

Finally, there's the fact that no Ork character can beat a dwarf lord kitted for survivability, and the fact that Thorek is flat out an I-Win button.

I say Dwarves have the edge, not due to their own codex's strength, but due to the O&G's weakness. O&G remind me of the High Elves of days gone by. The fluff gives them a weakness, and the codex designers diligently put it in the game, but neglected to give them compensating benefits.

I recently faced some O&G and my poor Dwarves shamed their ancestors. The two units that really hurt me were 2 units of Savage boar boyz and 1 unit of Savage Orcs. The boar boyz hurt me badly because of my poor deployment. Their speed combined with the attacks on the charge chewed through my units. Had I focused a little more shooting at them, then this wouldn't have been an issue.

My Dwarf Army is a little short on shooting, so anybody with a more significant amount of shooing can easily tip the balance.

A goblin (+NG) based force will have no issues with shooting as they should have largish units that will be able to absorb quite a bit of fire. I run 4 units of 25 and 1 unit of 54 (10 wide )

Also for NGs nets are an option. Albiet expensive they can take the punch out of most dwarf attacks.

Also hatred.... IMHO it is better for the NGs as they get more rerolls due to their lower WS.
Spears work wonders in this situation, actually allowing enough hits to kill off a couple of dwarves. And as you should have a larger unit in combat the +5 combat res and a couple of dwarves less to attack back = break tests. Dwarves are tanks they absorb punishment but struggle to give it out (characters and hammerers are obvious exceptions)

I think of all the armies currently out Dwarfes, O&G and Empire are the closest matched, as they were all written at a similar point in time, all are very well balanced with almost no lemons in the list and no 'must haves'

The stick in the mud for the opponent of a dwarf player is if he castles up with a heap of shooting and blasts away... but all opponents, no matter the army will struggle vs that.

Well, this has been a nice discussion so far.

Anyone want to change to a different army vs. army? If you don't, I'll keep Dwarves vs. O&G up till Sunday or so.

To be completely honest. I would have to say that Dwarves should beat O&G almost all the time. Between our superior shooting and leadership we normally get the better end of the deal. But the kicker is that unlike NG who hate dwarves, we hate ALL greenskins. Combine that with T 4, 3+ CC saves on small bases and we have a winner. We do however lose out on snag and grab objective games though.

Keep going on these 2 armies.

Squigs seem to be the bane of dwarves. ItP, so no panic tests for shooting losses, tons of at-initiative S5 hits, and hatred against the stunties.

If it can get through, gobbo magic is also particularly powerful against dwarves, closing the gap quicker, 6's becoming ones, hand & foot are all incredibly disruptive, or downright deadly.

You should write it up as a tactica in the Articles system before you change pairings.

Yes, but my internet is fail.

Dwarves are horrible maneuver armies and they do one thing and one thing well: Shooting. This can be enough sometimes, but once a more plentiful or more maneuverable enemy begins to engage them in close combat things can begin fall apart. Also, their effectiveness is more related to their army selections than their actual generaling.

I have been enjoying a list with two Longbeard units, one unit of hammerers, one unit of warriors, one unit of Slayers, only two bolt throwers and a smattering of other shooty stuff. It's fun because it does move forward, and it throws people off, because it is so different. As effective as a shooty list? No... but it has none of the weaknesses of the shooty list either.

gobbo magic MUST be stopped by the dwarfs. Other very useful unit for the gobbos: Doom Diver. Otherwise, dwarfs typically excel v. O & G.

I am glad that GW chose in the Chaos FAQ to state that unit champions are not characters - that makes Shagga's Screaming Sword not as badly broken as it looked like it might be.

In terms of squigs, I've run squig hoppers which absolutely mince warmachine crews, and then break through to the dwarf rear.

However the squig herds should be very useful due to the bunching that dwarf armies do so that when they do 'explode' wounding nearby units, several dwarf units will be affected.
And the dwarfs will suffer much more than the gobbos will.

Concur with Gonads on the squigs. Dwarfs are typically very close together since they can't afford to spread out and still expect to provide support to other units. So... when squig herds do go, they put a chompin' on expensive units.

RZ

Also as most dwarf players spread warmachines between their main combat units they will get a hammering as well.

Nice thought is 4 units of squig herds (at 2000-2250pts) racing accross the field at a dwarf battle line. Immune to psych so panic from shooting isn't an issue and as long as the NGs are alive to get there the 'bomb' goes off. x that by 4 for devestation of the dwarf line, followed up by several fanatics pouring through the remaining dwarfs.

I'm intrigued by the savage ork boar boys comments earlier.

With spears they only have 2 (frenzy) st4 attacks from the rider and 2 st5 attacks (on the charge) from the boar for a horrendously high cost for effect. How do you get through the high Dwarf WS, T and armour? I can imagine due to sheer number of attacks, or with a flank charge but I can only see the savage orc boar boyz bouncing if they hit a dwarf unit (with character) front on.

They way I see it (in a battle between two non-tooled lists) the dwarf shooting will do virtually nothing. The O&G having very few usefull targets that will actually care about losing 10 or so guys.
While a properly geared dwarf lord will usually beat an O&G counterpart the orc heroes on the charge (or not charging) will beat their dwarf counter parts or do a number on dwarf infantry.

Obviously the dwarfs will be sorrounded eventually. Being outnumbered 2v1 will do this to you. So the game will come down to a couple things.
1) Are the dwarf flanks properly secured? Are they guarded by stubborn/unbreakable troops?
- if not the dwarfs will get rolled
2) can the O&G find a spot to punch through? This will usually involved sending boar riders with a char or two at the non-stubborn units in the middle of the dwarf line (dwarfs dont like to flee as they usually get rundown anyways)
- If the O&G can do this they can rack up some big points and if the dwarfs turn to face the offenders they will be easily flanked by the block troops coming their way.
3) Is there an easy target in the O&G army?
- If there is such a thing as a giant/wyvrin/something else worth points that can die easily from shooting then it will and this will give the dwarfs a leg up.
4) Can the O&G player neutralize the dwarf lord or will the dwarf get moving?
- if the O&G can keep the dwarf lord tied down against pointless fights (such as goblins) then nothing else in the dwarf army can stand up to the warboss. If the dwarf can fight his way to the enemy general he will usually dispatch the Orc.

Those are really the things I see deciding a game between the two armies. There are other things such as terrain placement that might affect the outcome but they will hinge on the 4 items above.

Ignore.

Should you have started a new thread?

Just that people may want to add stuff to previous weeks discussions.

Ooh, good point. I'll change this thread back and try to post another.

We've been talking about a straight up fight. What if, realizing they are in a bad position, the O&G player simply plays for the draw? It means you don't auto-lose.

One area that O&G can shine vs. Dwarves is the magic phase. Sure green magic isn't great, but unless they're packing an anvil (which is not an auto-choice) the Dwarves have no response. Use your magic and shooting (spear chuckas) to pick on shooty units / counter battery fire. There are a few decent big Waagh spells that could suit this purpose.

Black orcs with grimgore, savage orc boar boys. It doesnt matter how many guns you have in a gun line ull miss and fail to wound and those things will gobble poor dwarfs up. Dwarfs are too static and slow. People forget the oppiste end of animosty if you roll a 6 the unit serges d6 inches foward plus never forget the WAAAAAAGGGHHHHH!!!!! which comes in very handy when the lines begin to close with each other. Also O&G also have the spell WAAAGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH and some very nasty magic that can gimp the poor dwarfs!! Win to the boys in green!!